Wildwood flower.

[TommyK]

Can anyone tell me if the Wildwood flower is an actual flower? I'd like to come up with a picture of one. I quizzed the University of Virginia biology dept. and they knew of no such plant. Is it a local colloqialism for a plant known by a different name?

[John Flynn]

The dictionary lists "wildwood" as a "wood unaltered or unfrequented by humans." So a wildwood flower would be any flower that grows in a wildwood. According to the lyrics to the tune, written by Maud Irving, J.P. Webster and A.P. Carter, they include lilies, myrtle and aronaut.

[John Flynn]

Also, Jim Stafford and Don Bowman wrote a song in 1974, which was recorded by Jim Stafford called, "Wildwood Weed." The lyrics make it clear that the title is a euphemism for marijuana.

[GBG]

Pronounced "Wilewood Flaaarr".

[mandodebbie]

As an amateaur naturalist and member of my local Natural History Society, I will assure you that there is no singular plant called "Wildwood Flower" by name. However, in the song - which was the first "bluegrass-type" music I have ever learned - there is mention of various wild woodland flowers of which the heartbroken lady wants to "twine and mingle in...(her)...raven black hair". They are as such: Roses (so red) and lillies (so fair) and the myrtle (so green of a bright verden hue). The pale amanita (a poisonous mushroom?) and the islips (so blue). She also states that her true love refered to her as his wildwood flower. That is, before he dumped her for another. There is no mention of prairie crocuses, dang it. Well, she is mountain girl, after all.

[jim simpson]

Jim Stafford and Don Bowman wrote a song in 1974, which was recorded by Jim Stafford called, "Wildwood Weed."

My favorite part of the song is "take a trip and never leave the barn".

[TommyK]

Pronounced "Wilewood Flaaarr".

Only in Virginny

[TommyK]

Also, Jim Stafford and Don Bowman wrote a song in 1974, which was recorded by Jim Stafford called, "Wildwood Weed." The lyrics make it clear that the title is a euphemism for marijuana.

I suspect Stafford's song was a bastagization of the Famous Carter Family's song. I would 'spect A.P. wouldn't have glorified an instrument of the devil (cannabis sativa) in one of his songs.

[csstanley]

Pronounced "Wilewood Flaaarr".

Only in Virginny

And in Caroliner too.

[TommyK]

Reason I'm asking is that I've come to appreciate the songs A.P. collected from the mountain folk of them parts and am trying to do them honor in my own small way. #Currently I'm working on A.Ps arrangements and WWF being one of them. #I also noticed that in the of center sister June's autoharp is the outline of a flower. (Did this belong to Mother Maybelle?) #I thought that stencilin' might be of the elusive WWF. #
My plan to show respect for the family, is to have a likeness of the WWF painted on the upper treble bout of my axe. #Tastefully done, of course. #(Put away the lynchin' tools boys, It's my axe and I have good intentions. At least I ain't putin' on a coat of Rustoleum.)
I am beginning to believe the WWF is meant to refer to a collection of flowers and can pick from many of them. #I may just try to replicate the flower of Sister June's autoharp, with color of course. #Maybe five white ray flowers (okay, okay flaars) and a yellow or pink disk flaar.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

We botanists are cringing.
Now A.P. just might have changed one flower into another if it suited him.
It's a lovely song, at any rate. I first learned the tune as the "
The Sinking of the Ruben James"! Was glad to get back to the woods later on in life, when I finally had the good sense to dig into the Carter Family songs. My most recent attention has been on "Diamonds in the Rough".

rasa

[TommyK]

We botanists are cringing. rasa

So Rasa, you're a botanist? I hate to make you cringe. Can you tell me what a Wildwood flower is? Is there a more common name? Do you know the proper latin nomenclature? Is it a name which refers to a collection of plants as in wild flowers.

When I was a kid we walked the beans cutting out, among other things a weed we called 'button weed'. Now in southern climes, a button weed is decidedly different than what we identify here in Illinois. In fact the central Illinois 'button weed' has a heart shaped, velvety leaf of 3 - 6 inches in diameter and can grow to 12' tall or taller on a woody stem. It has seed pods, the size of your thumb (well my thumb anyway), that looks a little like the Adams family's flesh eating plant. Kind of ball shaped with ribs and a circle of spines at the top. The women folk used to, might still, paint the podded stems up in silver or gold or other color when they got dry and hard and put them in flower, oops flaar, arrangemnts. Our 'button weed' goes by a few other names in central Illinois too, Butter Print and Velvet Leaf. I think Velvet Leaf is the most universally accepted.

So, I'm wondering if there is a more widely accepted name for A.Ps Wildwood Flower. I need to know so I can google or otherwise look it up in botanical books.
(Yes I am old enough to know how to look things up in a library, I used a card catalogue, just last week to the surprise of the children here at thecollege. It worked when the 'puter didn't. The pubescent library assistant warned, "It hasn't been updated since 1988!" I said, "That's okay, I'm looking for an LPs." the college has 1,000s of them. Famous Carter Family recorded in 1935!, Flatt & Skrugs, Doc Watson, Roy Clark, et.al.)

[MartinD_GibsonA]

written by Maud Irving, J.P. Webster and A.P. Carter

Actually, the research I've done on it suggests that Maud Irving and J P Webster wrote the song around 1860 and called it "I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets". #A P Carter reworked it *much* later, called it "Wildwood Flower" and copyrighted it to get the royalties.

Don Smith

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Don's right. And in typical A.P. fashion he did as little as necessary to it to make it his.

Tommy - it's a goose chase. There have been many who have attempted this - though it is doubtful that it is the point of the song. Rather the point would be that a wildwood flower or spring wild flower is epheremal, that is they bloom quickly, early in the spring (before the forest canopy fills out), and last but briefly.
There are flower references in the verse of the raven (raving?) hair, but these are not necessarily wild flowers, but plants that were commonly used in the garden. There are of course, many wild species of rose, a much more sun loving plant, found in more open spaces. There are also several native species of lily.
I don't think the song attempted to reference a specific flowering plant but was a poetic comparison of the relationship's short duration with the short duration of wildflower bloom.
Botanical nomenclature is rarely used by songwriters - and common plant names, as you know, vary greatly from region to region and time period to time period. Shakespeare is an interesting study in this regard. So although plants are sometimes identifiable from common names, there is more often confusion and much room for error when trying to determine the correct Genus and species.
Re: collections - it was common for women of the time (late 1800's) to collect and draw wildflowers. Although more, and perhaps better, documented in England and Europe, it was done in the United States as well. Some of the finest botanical drawings can be found in private collections of this type. There are also actual specimens collected for this purpose, but they tend to have survived less favorably. Many women, as amateur #botanists, were most professional in every sense, lacking only the university degrees and professional recognition they deserved at the time.

rasa

[John Flynn]

Tommy: I think if you use some "wildwood weeds" you'll stop worrying about this!

[mandodebbie]

I looked up your "wildwood weed" in my field guide. The Latin name is cannibis satava (spelling?). It is also known as "medicinal hemp'. Hmmm. Could it have helped that poor girl in the song? Only her local shamanic practitoner would know.

[TommyK]

I'm not old enough for the 'legalized' devil weed: Nicotiana tabacum. #Let alone the illegal stuff. #I know so, because my daddy done tol' me so, and he says he's too young to start too! (he's 66)

Thanks Rasa for the informative input, especially insight to the analogy of the short lived nature of flowers of the woods and that of the relationship. #

I believe 'Raven black' is correct, as in, "Quoth the raven, 'Never more.'" #

I've thought about it and since Mabelle's mother, #and her mother's mother all sang it, it's exact origins have been lost in the mists of time. #Since 'Wildwood flaar' seems to be a generic or fantasy name or as you put it ephemeral, I think I'll borrow Sister June's stencil on her autoharp and go from there. #And when anyone asks I can say with confidence, "It's a Wildwood Flower," without an astute flowercologist saying, "nope, nope, what you have there is a Pinkus domesticum."

Thanks again Rasa!

In APs defense, if traipsing through the hills and hollers of the Tri-state area, (maybe 5 or more states), listening to music, transcribing it, transposing and in some cases translating it doesn't earn him the right to copyright it then I don't know what does. #At any rate he and others did facilitate saving 'mountain music' for posterity. #The women folk in his family; Sara, Maybelle and the girls did the most important job, getting the word out by performing it beautifully.

"You are my sunshine, my only sunshine. #You make me happy......"

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

You're welcome. Nothing like a little botany to liven up a mandolin discussion.
I agree, Tommy, re: the contribution of the Carters. They are some of my all time favorite makers and preservers of music. It remains a special moment in country music history. And I 'm not knocking A.P., but rather observing how he changed as little as possible. It's a common trend in the taking of the earlier versions of this music thru various steps of publishing. Merle Travis, Albert Brumley, etc. for example. It's a long time since 1930, and I'm sure that it was not an easy journey for the Carter family to accomplish as much as they did. Did you know they actually only gigged periodically? Probably so they could attend to the realities of their daily lives.
I haven't ever seen June's autoharp, only those used by Sara and Maybelle earlier on. Yes, Maybelle played one, although she is known for her guitar. I think A.P. played the autoharp. If you can post or msg. me, tell me where I can see June's, or even mail or fax me a facsimile, I can try to i.d. it for you. Depends on who did the work. Rarely have I seen botanical accuracy, even though some makers/inlayers/painters actually kept/keep a certain degree of correctness in their designs.
Interesting that you mention Pink, as there has been some talk over the years that "the" wildflower might be a Dianthus sp. #(sorry, can't get the italics to cooperate.) There are several, ranged along the east coast of the U.S. into the mountains, commonly referred to as Pinks, members of the family Caryophyllacae. Doubtful, in my opinion. And, actually, some species of Dianthus are cultivated varieties or escapees rather than true wildflowers.
But that stencil, or inlay, may be patterned after a flower such as that.

rasa
who also plays autoharp

[Mandodoc]

Interesting tread. Very informative.
jon

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Tommy - June's autoharp was made by George Orthey in Newport, PA, and that flower is his logo/trademark. Being cut as a soundhole leaves a bit of detail out! but his regular logo has that five petal wildflower. So contact him, as it appears he didn't just make it up, but he probably had a wildflower in mind or as a model when he created the design. He doesn't seem to have an e-mail, but has a website. I can't get seem to get the http button to do what it's supposed to do for me, so just look it up. Orthey Autoharp. Kindly let me know what he says.

rasa

[TommyK]

Here is my sighting of 'Sister June's' autoharp.


from: #http://maninblack.net/cashphotos/press.jpg #IMHO a great site to get lost in.
5 petals, alternate leaves and a long 'viney' stem to the flower. #I don't know if this is a stencil or sound hole, I'm not real familiar with autoharps other than I like the sound of them. #I think it's on an album cover or it IS the album cover. #

I hope I didn't indvertently indicate a real plant with Pinkus domesticus. My limited remembry of botany left me with Zea maize, Glycine max #and Poa acae #everything else is a RoadRunner episode. #I guess Dianthuseses.. uh.. Dianthusi..(sp?) are also know as 'pinks' aren't they? #Where is Dan Quayle whe you need him??? #

[TommyK]

btw Rasa,
Don't worry about botany being off topic on mandos. #If it weren't for botany they'd be no spruce, rosewood, mahogany or maple. #We'd all be listening to dobros, banjos and drums!
And Gibson would be without a pot to flaar in!

[Moose]

I been follow'n this thread with rapt attention - now I can list this "classic" under "drug songs" in my set list! - the discussion among the botanists on this CAFE is really interesting!! - ya' can learn somethin' every day.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Glad to keep you alert, Moose. Now trying to keep a whole bunch of students' attentive is another matter.

It's a soundhole, and Dr. Orthey's logo has this same flower in the center also.

rasa

[Michael H Geimer]

Maybelle didn't just play the autoharp, she fingerpicked that darn thing! She would wear fingerpicks like a banjo player, and then use the buttons to unmute the strings she wanted to pick.

There's a nice Johnny Cash quote about how he "could listen to Maybelle play 'Wildwood Flower' on the autoharp for hours."

- Benig