The Gall to Ask!

[Harry H]

It's human nature to ask for free help, plus most people in this country have no idea that musicians should be paid adequately,
if at all.

And, have you ever noticed that people who do pay want it their
way, not your way? 'That was great, can you turn it down.?'
Meanwhile, the PA mains are off, the audience is listening to
the backwash of the Monitors off the back wall. and your fave
amp sounds like the transistor radio your grandmother gave
you for Xmas in 1964.

I played a Party at the Dallas Zoo one time. We played so low that
three or four toddlers were literally dancing within two feet of
my AC 30 amp. Do you know how low that is? It's like Grandma's
transitor radio at half volume! The job payed a $150 a man.
It wasn't worth the crummy sound for the money.

Here's what I do for free gigs, if I want 'em.
1) We're free, a professional PA is $500,
2) we play what we want,
3)however loud (or soft) we want

I'm playing for a vintage muscle car club in April,
an outdoors gig. It's free.
The cars will be loud, so will we.
Am I gonna play mando?
Sure, for five songs, 'cause I want to.
The rest of the time I'm playing my '69 Marshall
50Watt Head with a 4x12 speaker cab (that's LOUD,
for non electric players keeping score at Home),
I'll have a Hiwatt rig of equal size for the other guitar player,
a copy of the local noise ordinance, a decibel meter (to show
the police that I'm not breaking the local ordinance) and my
contract that says I can play as loud as I want.

I think I'll really enjoy this free gig.

[Steve L]

I once played at a wedding reception at one of the mansions in Newport, RI. The bride and groom arrived by helicopter to give you some idea of the money these people had to play with.

This particular band did not have a keyboard player, and as we were setting up, the banquet manager came up and asked which one of us would be "tinkling" the piano during the cocktail hour...for no additional charge. We tried to explain to this fool that the "tinkling"she was referring to was a highly specialized skill that many people dedicate a lifetime to cultivate, but she couldn't quite fathom how this could be so. The only "tinkling" we did that day occured in the men's room.

[reindoggy]

One of the first gigs I ever played out was in a small bar. I was in a country band playing bass and fiddle. It was strictly a "pass the hat situation" and the lead singer appeared to be doing a great job passing it. People seemed very generous. At the end of the night when we had packed our equipment and were expecting our cut we found he had gotten drunk and spent it all buying drinks for the bar. What a generous guy! End of band.

After having been burned by "friends", bar owners and promoters for many years, I am very cautious about playing for money. I also only play for free when, what and where I choose to play. But, If this old dog is expected to haul equipment, that's where the freebies stop!

This has been a very good topic. I appreciate the many good negotiating tips. There are, obviously, many of you who have found a way to mix, what I consider to be oil and water, music and money.

Thanks!

Reinal

[JimD]

sbarnes hits the nail right on the head -- if we won't do it, there is always someone who will... I don't have a solution for this.

My current policies follow. This is the result of many years of experience -- good and bad. (Some time we should discuss the clauses that we add to our contracts after certain "special" gigs.)

For weddings:

I don't play receptions (years ago ago I gave up playing to the backs of heads and over the sounds of conversation) -- #but for ceremonies, I always ask for the money in advance (even just to hold the date). AND -- no negotiating. This is my fee. If you don't like it find someone else.

For concerts etc.:

I have always been willing to negotiate in the past, but have become less and less inclined to do so. The poorer paying gigs are often the ones that you just want to forget anyway. It is often the organizations with the most resources that try to cut corners. Years ago an organization of very wealthy people in one of the wealthiest communities in New Jersey wanted to hire my duo for a concert. I told them the price (not any different than I would have charged the local public library) and the woman was horrified. She said, " we were thinking $50 - $75!" #Needless to say, there was to be no negotiating with someone who didn't occupy the same planet...

For freelance gigs (pit orchestras and the like):

There is usually a budget and no room to negotiate -- so I just turn down the ones that don't pay enough.

This is very important: I NEVER recommend someone else when the money isn't good enough. I have too much respect for my peers and colleagues to insult them by doing this.

[kudzugypsy]

wow! lots of hits on this one!
our band does 2 freebees a year, thats it, and only for some really good cause, usually the annual animal haven fund raiser. as far as weddings, PLEASE! they are the WORST gigs.
if you want to make money in the music entertainment area, become a DJ. i was shocked to see DJ's making almost twice what a good live band would bring. we played a show and later "for dancing" they had a DJ. the guy shows up with Radio Shack equipment (maybe $500 investment max) and a case full of mix cd's and got $800!! and they were griping about the $400 our trio charged!

[Mike Crocker]

Once in a while I get folks who want to negotiate my lesson fee. What they don't know is I used to work as a labour negotiator so I have no trouble saying "no". The nerve!

The freebie gigs are an insult unless I'm playing for a cause I support, even then I want a tax receipt.

Every so often a freebie can morph into the underground economy special if the parties have goods or services of mutual attraction. My music skills for your well drilling sort of thing. Your daughter's wedding and I get your father's Loar. Lol!

Peace, Mooh.

[bdisp]

I remember a house-warming gig for a couple with a $3M house. 4 piece band charged $800. At the end of the gig the homeowner gave me a check for playing. I told him the "playing was free". He asked about the check I put in my pocket. I told him it was for the equipment set-up and break-down.

[Adam Tracksler]

I had a Bluegrass band at my weding. We paid them some money and said they could play whatever they wanted, take as many breaks as they wanted and eat all the lobster they could (we had a cookout/lobsternbake on the beach). The band was happy - they probably ate the most lobster...we were happy. Sometimes if you cant meet on financial terms, you can meet on other terms. LIke at the seafood festival - ask for all the food you can eat and beer you can drink. (I've been to a few SF festivals, and you can do some serious damage at the lobster tail tent and beeer tent).

[JimD]

Sometimes if you cant meet on financial terms, you can meet on other terms. LIke at the seafood festival - ask for all the food you can eat and beer you can drink. (I've been to a few SF festivals, and you can do some serious damage at the lobster tail tent and beeer tent).

I don't really agree with this way of thinking. This just reinforces the stereotypes of musicians that will be happy if you ply them with enough beer.

The problem is that people don't get the concept that musicians are professionals and should be treated as such. We should be careful to demand to be treated as professionals and our actions at the negotiating table should reflect that.

Do we get free (or less expensive) medical treatment if we take the doctor out for drinks?

Do the caterers at functions charge less because they get to hear the music?

[mandowilli]

Good points JimD. To most people there is no connection between the amount of money paid to a band or musician and the quality of what they are getting. As for playing for grub or drinks, my group is already at the limit of how many times we can or will play in a month, and so far I have heeded the advise to "keep the day job".

willi

[skinny]

I'm at the point where I really look down on musicians good or bad that will play for nothing.
Playing for free or little money is a dominoe effect that can effect the market value of live music for an entire area for a significant period of time.
It usually comes down to ignorance about the business and impatience. The impatience of wanting to get your name out by playing every gig that comes along.
It just riles me up when I hear a musician say, "ahh, I'm not in it for the money". Then go to festivals and take part in spontaneaous jams, don't infringe on those that need to make money.
We all need to stick together and if that means sitting at home jamming some weekends because a venue doesn't want to pay then that is what needs to happen. They will pay eventually when they can't get anyone for entertainment.

[jim simpson]

I love seafood and was contacted by a fellow mucician that I really don't care for and haven't had contact with in ages. He asked me to play for a free event that would include all the seafood I wanted. I don't like seafood that much! If this call came from someone I liked and enjoyed playing with, I might have said yes. My regular group played for a charity event last year that we were all fine with the cause, etc. I don't know how much money was raised but it couldn't have been too much as the event didn't seem to be promoted too well. I have been involved in planning and running fundraising concerts and I know how much energy it takes for it to be succesful. It can be done right, we always met our goals.

[Lefty&French]

We are all indignant over these situations but my questions remain, "Why are musicians treated this way?" #"Why is the art of live performance valued so poorly in our society?"

willi

Television ?

[Greenmando]

Even worse is live theatre, actors will line up by the hundreds to give their labor away for free. The house will charge $25+ for seats and can not afford to even buy them lunch. My x-wife would even shell out hundreds of dollars to buy costumes to wear at my expence and outrage.

Family can be pretty insulting too. My dad was a carpenter as well, after retiring they were building a house they told me would be later be sold for profit. A few months later they wanted me to do the finish work on the house for free and acted hurt when I declined to do it.

Playing for no money is a great thing. You can still have a great time pickin and you get to perform in front of people. There is no need for them to have to pay you. Unless you are a fairly well known group. I wouldn't pay someone like that. I do gigs all the time for different venues and all i get is a standin ovation. That's just how it is.

[JimD]

Playing for no money is a great thing. You can still have a great time pickin and you get to perform in front of people. There is no need for them to have to pay you. Unless you are a fairly well known group. I wouldn't pay someone like that. I do gigs all the time for different venues and all i get is a standin ovation. That's just how it is.

So, what do you do for a living?

How would you feel if there was always someone around who would do it for free or for below value?

[jim simpson]

"There is no need for them to have to pay you. Unless you are a fairly well known group."

Hey, If I played for free I wouldn't have been able to accumulate the money to feed my instrument aquisition addiction. I don't get paid because I'm well known but because I provide a service of entertainment along with my bandmates. I'm pretty sure I'll never be well known but as I write this I'm getting ready to drive to a gig that's about 1 1/2 hrs. away. We don't get standing ovations but I've never heard a more appreciative audience than this crowd. I even see the same folks when we play other locations so maybe to them we're well known. We won't get paid more than our cut of the door will allow but it's better than playin' for nothin'.

[mandopete]

Well, I just take Nancy Reagan's advice...

Just Say No!

[mandowilli]

News Alert!
This Just in: The audience never knows how much you are getting paid!
And that is just the way it is.

willi

[mrbook]

It doesn't take much time playing out to accummulate some good stories, and learn some good lessons. There was a "small group of retirees" that "couldn't pay much," so we agreed to play for less than usual (it was an easy gig), only to arrive and find the small group was over 4,000 people (more than half were listening to us). When I asked for a more reasonable amount when they wanted us the next year, they of course found someone else. Then there was a friend and fellow musician who asked us to help him get something started by playing for less - we honored our part by playing too long for too little, and found out later that the money that didn't go to musicians went in his pocket. He tricked accordian players into playing 6 hours for $15 - even when I play banjo I know better than that. The list goes on, and it's not just in music; whatever expertise you have, people want it for free.

We do play free for a GOOD cause (our choice), but never for exposure. It only seems to tell people you are willing to play for free. We get paying jobs from paying jobs, but never from free ones.

I also notice that even when you play for free for a good cause, the fact that the organization is not paying for entertainment usually gives them less incentive to make the event a success. We recently did a fundraiser for a local food pantry (refreshments were home made and donated, too), but they refused several offers of photos and publicity material that could have promoted the event. The turnout was less than expected (the group was supported by 87 churches), but I had hoped to see our efforts raise more money. It was nice seeing our picture on the front page of the paper the next day, but comparing the money raised to the number of people there showed me that many #"volunteered" their time to see the show for free. We were the only entertainment, and at least 25% of the crowd were our regular fans, who came because I told them it was a good cause.

[JimD]

We do play free for a GOOD cause (our choice), but never for exposure.

Up here in the North people die of exposure.

If I had a nickle for every time someone told me that I should work for free because of the great exposure, I wouldn't have to work at all.

I found out decades ago that people use that phase ONLY as an excuse for not paying you what you're worth. As soon as someone uses the "e word", RUN the other way.

[Jim Garber]

I just say no, I don't work for free unless it is a very good cause that I am into and even then.

The problem is that there are many folks who will work for free and in some way it does ruin it for others.

I will certainly do benefits but if the folks are making money or spending lots (like a wedding) there is no reason to charge a reasonable fee. I found out overthe years how much pro wedding bands were getting and adjusted our fees per musician.

Jim

[Greenmando]

Word does spread quicker if you work for free, everyone talks about some sucker who will work for free!

Sit down and agree to a set price the band will work for, and walk away from anything less. If you do work for less these same people who spread the word spread your new reduced price.

[reindoggy]

Up here in the North people die of exposure.

If I had a nickle for every time someone told me that I should work for free because of the great exposure, I wouldn't have to work at all.

[QUOTE]

So true! I've been off stage for almost a year for various work and personal life complications. Yet, in the past two weeks, I've gotten two calls to play benefits. One acknowledged I was the fourth mandolin player they had called and were desperate. Then they recovered and said they heard I was wonderful. Funny, isn't it? There's six inches of snow on the ground and I can still smell the bull****.

Also, I so agree that no matter the situation or the money, the audience doesn't know and deserves your best efforts.

On weddings: They can be great fun and profitable as well but the person paying you needs to know exactly what you will play and for how long. Then you can relax and make sure everyone has fun.

I played one corporate event where we were hired by a person who did not communicate to her boss we were not a pop cover band. He was sorely disappointed with both us and his staffer. Not a Tex-Mex, underground Country Rock fan, I guess.

Once again --a great thread!

[GnomeGrown]

ok-->

to extend these thoughts, what is everyone's opinion on open-mic nights?

lots of coffee houses, bars, restaurants, etc. have them. Lots of "aspiring" perormers play, occasionally only for tips.....

good.....................bad............indifferen t....????