Gag me.Originally Posted by
And here the thread was almost mostly about respect, and lack of it. I look down on elitist and superiority. Go figure.
Gag me.
And here the thread was almost mostly about respect, and lack of it. I look down on elitist and superiority. Go figure.
Jeff Rohrbough
"Listen louder, play softer"
To answer a previous question,
We play at an open mic night and the hosts of the open mic are professional musicians who do get paid to host.
Willi!
Ran into a bunch of your friends at the Will McLean Festival! Bill is supposed to say hey to you for me. KZ and Eric were out there for a few hours too!
Threads often digress into name calling and some take the bait, but this one is really about the reasons that people ask for quality music for next to nothing or for free. #Open mics are great, and many of us have availed ourselves of them at some point in our development, but they are what they advertise, that is, people playing for free just for the chance to play. #And folks that play for free are just that, and that ain't bad. #But what is the logic behind someone wanting quality music at their event getting it for nothing? #If they were serving wine it would be a no brainer that you would have to pay good money for the right wine!
willi
http://www.onestreetover.net/pages/1/index.htm
willi
I just returned from playing for free. A guy that hires us a few times a year asked us to play a half hour along with a few other groups. We could have had a free meal, but I met the chef another time and passed. It was a couple miles from home, the guy always pays us decently, and it seemed like fun.
I also turned down another free opportunity today. The local country music organization had a "showcase" for people nominated in their annual awards show (we are up for bluegrass band of the year). We could drive 60 miles each way and play 15 minutes for free - a no brainer even if we really wanted the award. Our fiddle player also plays in another band who made the trip, arrived to find no drum set or amps, and came home without playing. That happens when you are hungry for stardom.
We normally play for money, although not always the princely sums that some people here get regularly. We do expect to be paid decently, and realize that since money is how many people measure success, we will try to be successful. We also want our playing to pay for our equipment - instruments and sound gear (which we would not have otherwise) are not cheap. Once in a while, though, we will play for free if we feel like it.
I never feel bad about charging people who can afford it. On the other hand, a couple times last year small businesses hired us and paid us for events expecting 1,000 people or more, and about 25 showed up. It didn't bother me to tell him to pay us a little less that day and have us back. It wasn't our fault, but I don't mind working with people.
To answer the open mike question:
I have no problem with them because they aren't really a gig. The intention is to give folks a chance to showcase their act. I personally wouldn't do one but I don't have anything fundamentally against them.
I would have a problem if the real reason for the open mike was so that some club owner could get a night's worth of free music. If the host band is paid appropriately, no problem.
To address the issue of reasonable pay for performing, consider what goes into a performance:
--the obvious things -- such as travel to and from the gig, set up time, the actual performance, rehearsal etc.
--the things we often forget -- such as years of lessons and practicing, composing and/or songwriting, arranging, time spent booking gigs, cost of promotional materials, sometimes classes in music theory or even degrees in music (or music business), time spent finding a sub for someone who can't make it and bringing the sub up to speed etc.
--the ineffables -- such as talent, life experience, ability to communicate to an audience
--the "stuff" we have to put up with -- (don't get me started...)
If you take all of this into consideration, we are all underpaid and being asked to play for free constitutes nothing more than an insult. If the intention isn't insulting, you can be sure at least that the folks doing the asking are, at the very least ignorant and oblivious to what goes into a performance.
I will not stoop to any name calling for those who will accept gigs to play for free. I'll simply say that they are part of the problem.
This is an interesting topic, and I always feel for those that are trying to make a living doing what for me has always been an intense hobby. I have always tried to offer my services to my friends and community for free out of a sense of charity...whether it be playing music, labor, cooking, etc. I hate to think that I'm undercutting other folks trying to do these good deeds. Is this charity, in fact, a problem? I hope not. There's probably a place for all of us, yes? You get paid in the 50k seat venue, and I'll play the nursing home for fun.
Jom
It isn't the nursing homes that I'm talking about. It certainly isn't only the 50K seat venues that should be paying real money either.
Of course there is a place for that kind of charity. What I'm talking about are the kind of things at which there should be appropriately paid professionals -- gigs in which the organizers are simply trying to get something for nothing (or too little). The people who accept these kind of gigs are part of the problem.
Fund raising events are a very complex issue. The most effective fund raising events I've been involved with are the ones in which the organizers were not afraid to pay out some money in order to make it work. If they can't find enough money to pay musicians then they usually can't get their act together to raise any substantial funds either. I have seen this played out many times. They try to get people to play for free and still end up falling far short of their goals.
VERY IMPORTANT LIFE LESSON:...DJ... with Radio Shack equipment (maybe $500 investment max) and a case full of mix cd's and got $800!! and they were griping about the $400 our trio charged!
A DJ's kraft is his gift of gab. #Those with the 'gift' of gab are usually good negotiators. #DJ in this instance is the better negotiator. #He knows what his time and equipment is worth, demands $800 and gets $800. #Depending on the size of his mix case, it doesn't take long to get $1000 wrapped up in CDs. #Not to mention his ASCAP and BMI bills. #Who among you pays the song writer his royalties?
"If you've got time to breathe, you've got time for music," Briscoe Darling
We do charge to play at nursing homes. When I had to put an elderly friend in one, he was charged $210 per day, along with the other residents. It's a business, not a charity - the other workers are paid, and I expect it, too. If I visited my friend for a meal, they would have charged me $20 to join him, and most people know what those meals are.
Interesting point, mrbook. Just another good reason not to accept non-paying gigs.
It usually isn't that they can't afford it but that they won't.
Been thinking about this a bit. #Lately my band has been playing quite a few gigs in coffee house/bookstore/barbeque joints and the pay varies from tips to as much as $150 <grins>.
We are a four-piece acoustic band that plays entirely original material, so I really don't consider this as any sort of Top-40 gig. #It's all a hobby to me, but I've spent a considerable amount of time in writing, arranging and rehearsing the material as well as a considerable amount of money on guitars, mandolins and a sound system.
I'm really torn on this issue in that if we don't play these sort of venues we'll never get out music out into the public. We could remain a "living room band", but we've decided to take another avenue with our songs.
What I would personally like to see is for these venues to do more advertising and not to expect us to bring in the people. #Many of these places just cram the band into a corner and call it entertainment and that is starting to wear thin.
2015 Chevy Silverado
2 bottles of Knob Creek bourbon
1953 modified Kay string bass named "Bambi"
This is interesting. #I've never had any problems when I volunteer my time. #Usually it's a pelasant experience. #I play family weddings ceremonies for free (my 1st instrument is trumpet). #The one time I played a paid wedding, the bride and groom were 1 1/2 hrs late and 1 trumpeter and a madrigal quartet had to keep coming up with something to do, not because it was demanded, but because we were bored and frustrated.
On trumpet, which I have years of experience with and hate playing, I'll play for free for my church and for family weddings (I'm gonna be there anyway, and I get antsy just sitting), but no one else. #On the mandolin, I'd probably play for free for anyone who asked. #I've been playing for less than a year. #I'm not worth the money yet. # That's not to say I won't accept if someone offers. #
With my acting, I have dealt with some pretty crazy stuff. #I'm an environmental theater type of person. #I worked at a great renaissance faire doing music and theater for years. #I got paid for my time. #I got a raise every year. #By the time I left, I was probably making nearly $9/hr. #It wasn't worth the money, but it was worth the fun. #I wanted to take it up again in my new location, so I went to a faire audition. #The people auditioning were, in general, not very good. #I got an enthusiastic call from the directors about how they really loved my audition and wanted me to work for them. #They told me what they would pay me for the summer. #It worked out to about $10/day. #That wouldn't pay for the gas. #Plus I had to provide my own costume. #I laughed and hung up on them. #
It's important to know what you're worth and be firm about it. #I have my policy for lessons, for music and for theater. #They're generous, but firm. #
-Katie
So honestly, with no malice intended by the question. Should I stop playing for free? I love playing for people, and I would never dream of asking people for money, because it is not my business.
Should I tell the nursing homes now, I'll play if you donate 100 bucks to X? It seems like it'd be hard to refuse to play if they refuse to donate, because I really just enjoy doing it. And I'm not doing it for the nursing homes...I'm doing for the residents, who seem to enjoy it...it makes them and me happy.
Yet I understand that for many of you, it is a business. And you will probably treat it more professionally that I do, and you probably have a great deal more expertise than I...and in the end, isn't that what people pay for?
I'm not saying you shouldn't get paid...and paid a lot, but is there a place for me to play and not be labeled some sort of scab?
And seriously, this is not an issue that I have thought about a lot, and if its true that I am taking business away from someone else, then I will have to rethink my attitude towards playing for folks.
Jom
Jom,
I read that the guy (Napoleon XIV) who wrote and recorded "They're coming to take me away" has been performing in nursing homes around Philadelphia. He doesn't go by Napoleon XIV anymore and wants no association with his earlier career. I guess he is happy to play the type of stuff the old folks want to hear on his keyboard. Now if you play for free you could be putting the former Napoleon XIV out of work! - I don't think you're a threat. I just love that song!
Old Hometown, Cabin Fever String Band
Anything that a hobbist is willing to do for free because it is fun is going to make it difficult for someone else to get paid well for doing the same task. #Does your "right or desire" to get paid a lot trump my "right or desire" to enjoy my hobby?
<Insert witty saying here>
How do I answer this?
I am put in a position that would make me look like I am stomping on your rights simply because I want to be able to earn a reasonable living at my chosen career.
I object to the phrase "right or desire to get paid a lot"". What we are looking for is the right to be paid appropriately considering the time, money, preparation and dedication that we put into our careers.
Does your right to enjoy your hobby trump my right to earn a living?
Play for free if you want to, and don't let other comments deter you. Sometimes taking money out of the equation makes it easier and more fun. However, playing places for free - and I'm not trying to criticize - does enable those who don't want to pay for entertainment. You will also find in many situations that when you are not paid you will be treated in a manner equal to the amount of money you received.
I don't ask anyone to do anything for me unless I can pay them, and I don't think someone should ask musicians to play unless they are planning to pay them. The amount is irrelevant - the musicians can accept or refuse, but if you ask someone to play, you should give them something in return, and as Bill Monroe would say, exposure is "no part of nothing." If a worthwhile fundraiser comes along, we have asked to donate our time, but that is our choice.
Our band treats playing as a business. We're not out to get rich or be stars, but our time and equipment are worth something. We play for all different amounts, #sometimes for tips, and once and a while even for free as a favor to someone. We never played open mics; we play enough that we don't need the experience or exposure, nor do we need to audition that way. It's okay for learning to perform, but not a real performance situation. Playing in clubs for tips gave us early performing experience, and I thought we outgrew it until I visited Tootsie's Orchid Lounge a few years ago and saw several veterans still doing it. There's nothing wrong with playing for a little money if that's all the place can pay; our prices vary depending on the size estimated income of the venue.
I've been on the other side; as an officer of our local business organization, I've tried to organize street events as a thinly veiled excuse to get musician friends some work. You're right - business people say, "We can get people to play for free, or for a sandwich," and I spend a lot of time arguing the point, not always successfully. At one event, we had a group of eight old harmonica players, and after the gig I watched the leader hand each player a $5 bill. When I went to get our band's pay (a bit more), I asked, "Did you really pay those guys $40?" They replied, "It's all they asked for." I said it was still wrong; it might have been good money when they played in 1940, but they should have been paid like everyone else today.
I've rambled a bit. I won't tell people what to do, but whether music is a hobby or a second (or first) job, your time and hopefully your talent are worth something. If you play for nothing, you may find that despite your good intentions, that is exactly what some people will think your music is worth.
while Im reading this post I get a call from my guitarist to remind me of the free going away party.....but its for a guy who has made it to alot of our shows and paid every time.....so I dont really mind one like that, but I dont see us setting up a PA........
We now get a performance contract on every show now that legally draws up the details of payment, deposits, guaranteed pay whether the place burns down or has a power outage.....and a food and beverage comp package....only after getting burned by a few scummy bar owners
Jim S. I wonder what the artist formally known as Napolean XIV is receiving for his services. Perhaps he'll let me open for him
Mr. Book...thoughtful post...I'll have to make a more careful judgement about each situation independently, but this has certainly opened my eyes a bit.
Jom
While writing one of the other posts I realized that hardly anyone would play for free at a hotel where every guest paid $200/day, but somehow it's okay if you call it a nursing home. I like playing for people in nursing homes and other care facilities, because the people really enjoy it (and they usually can't leave). That doesn't mean that the business that runs the place should ask you to play for free.
We also take each situation independently, deciding what to charge and whether to use a contract. Sometimes we do things for free for someone who has treated us well. We try to not let the bad experiences bother us too much, or it won't be fun anymore.
There was a controversial article in Bluegrass Unlimited about this around a year or 2 ago. The author was saying that nobody should play for free. They stated reasons from taking opportunities away from others who depend on the money(professionals) to those that that will settle for a band that will play for
free. Usually those free bands may not be up to par and others hearing the music
for the first time will get a bad impression. Me, I just like playing.
If you're trying to make money (or even just break even) doing something that many people are willing to do for free, you just have to accept the fact that you must compete against the freebies. To do so you must distinguish yourself in some way, hopefully through the quality of product you provide. Lots of businesses compete with freebies. Church picnics and "Meals on Wheels" aren't going to put fine restaurants out of business, and the oldest profession seems to still be a going venture in spite of lots of free competition.
Music should be fun and satisfying, at least for most of the parties involved. If you manage to get paid to play or maybe even make a living at it, then consider yourself fortunate. If you can't compete with the freebies then as they say, "don't quit your day job".
If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly.
I'll second what picksnbits said.
I'll also add that there is nothing anywhere that says the music business (or any other business) is easy, or should be easy. If there are people out there making it hard for me to make a living then I need to work harder to make a living.
There will ALWAYS be people out there making it hard for you to make a living, regardless of what you're trying to do.
The issue then becomes whether you can be happy and enjoy doing whatever it is you're doing.
Joy to all,
Ken
Less talk, more pick.
I understand not being happy with someone that undercharges or even performs for free at what would normally be a paying venue because it can cut into your pocket book. I am a carpenter and I have run up against bidding work against guys willing to trim a house out for about 1/2 of what I charge. Makes it hard to get work sometimes. However there are places and times that others performing for free should be acceptable to you even if you don't want to perform for free yourself.
There are examples from other professions that get performed for free at times. Locally you can get your taxes done for free if you are elderly or economically disadvantaged. Some of the people offering this service are even professional CPA's.
I have donated my skills as a carpenter and I know of several other VERY GOOD professional carpenters that have donated their skills from time to time. Habitat for Humnaity has been the beneficiary of this several times.
Do any of you musicians think these people are somehow doing the other people in their professions wrong by donating their time?
Just my 2 cents and I offer it up for free. #
Bill Snyder
I had a friend ask if I would donate my band's services for her wedding. I told her that our set list wasn't a good fit for a wedding reception (we played mainly hard rock and originals). I was basically trying to politely decline...THEN, she hands me a set-list (at least 40 songs) of country sobgs for us to learn. This is before I have accepted. At that point, I knew it was time to totally bail. And I told her we were booked solid for the month of her wedding and that we wouldn't have our equipment available because it would be at the club. She asked me if WE would RENT gear to play at the reception for FREE...I just had to laugh...since the wedding I haven't heard a word...Hmmmmm
PeacE
Brian
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