The Gall to Ask!

[mandowilli]

What is it that gives people the crust to ask you to perform for free or next to nothing? #I can fully understand requests from community, enviornmental, charity organizations, etc., but in the last three months I have had a few doosies.

First; Two weeks before New Years an event at a riverfront city park run by a private company, $25.00 admission and the rest is pay as you go. #They want us to play for 2 hours. #How much I ask? #"Well there is a budget and some of the groups will be getting something". Two weeks before New years, mind you.

Next; Last weekend I get the call. #Huge Seafood festival here on the East Central Florida coast. #Attendance always over 50,000. #An admission fee, they sell lots of (really good) seafood, and charge $3.00 a beer. #And they sell a lot of them (I know from personal experience). #Everybody is getting payed or making money. #Our four piece group with pro sound system for 3 hours? #"We might be able to get you $100.00?"

Finally; #Last night. #Amanda (don't know her) is getting married (you know her step mom, remember?), and the cello player bailed (got a paying gig the same day no doubt), and she (Amanda) is going to pieces about her wedding (next weekend by the way). #Can you save the day (for free)?

This is a rant, I won't deny that. #But also a question. #Why do people think that they can ask musicians to perform for nothing while everyone else is getting payed? #My group plays about 4-5 times a month in the area and have a pretty good following, and I believe that this is what leads to many of the inquries that we do get. #Is it because we are having fun while we perform and people think that we will just do it for the fun of it? #Is it lack of regard for musicians as professionals? #How about just plain stupidity?

willi

http://www.onestreetover.net/pages/5/index.htm

[El Rey del Mando]

I'll use my own words from another post. That takes a big set of grapes!I've seen it a lot over the past 30+ years.

John

[El Rey del Mando]

One more thing,When they see you having such a good time on stage,they don't ever think about the WORK we go through at practice. How about it?

John

[GTison]

You get what you pay for usually. free music is usually worth every penny. I avoid it. Even for good causes. There are just too many for me. I understand.

"can you come over and play for a little while, it won't take much time, This is a fund raiser, we don't have enough members." "yes, this is a donate your time situation" ( one you have to drive 45 minutes to and from" Just call me Old Eboneezer.

I'm going to actually play a 'relay for life this year'. Because it sounds like a first class setup with pro sound and a well known group , It might do our group some good too. But most of the time. I'm sorry I've got to mow my grass. Which reminds me you know how much that cost these days? Well, ask 4 guys to come work for you and see how much you'll pay. Why should music be any different. people don't realize you'll spend at least half a day just doing a 1 hour gig. And Gasoline and someone balks at paying a band 1000 bucks to drive half way across the country. Shameless!! Sometimes they'll make you feel 2 inches tall. In my view the pay is a form of respect. And too often they don't respect others time at all and esp. YOU. ( you think you hit a nerve here)

[mingusb1]

Bummer, sorry to hear about that stuff. I have found it useful to ask something like:

"is the catering being donated, is the alchohol donated, etc.?"

It never (or very rarely) is, so why should the music be?

Z

[mandodebbie]

I had the same experience with people expecting "freebees" from me; however not with my mando, but with my artistic skills. A friend once asked me to quickly knock together The Lord's Prayer in calligraphy (with a fancy border, mind you..."Gee, gold leaf is swell!") for her mother. She became rather irate when I said that I charged a dollar a line and the illumination would be extra. "But you're a FRIEND!" she screamed. Friends need to eat, I responded. I have reason to believe that artists of all genres seem to be treated like Honest Ed's Discount Centre. It's no wonder we starve.

[mandowilli]

Not to say that we don't do a benefit or two for worthy causes. #Or take a bit less from a venue that supports live music every night of the week. #It is the phone calls out of the blue from businesses and individuals who are complete strangers. #They want quality, this I know because they have either heard us or we come recommended. #I suppose I am pissed off over the total disrespect implied by these offers.

Everyone knows that if you pay the caterer very little, then you will get lousy food. #If you pay little for the venue, it is a dump. #If you don't fund the bar, the drinks are weak!

willi

[siren_20]

I know the feeling.... if it's a ceremony or to help a friend, I generally oblige. The weirdest one was when I was the third guitar player that had been recruited by a friend of mine to play during the wedding ceremony of some people that she barely even knew. We practiced our arses off, and after the wedding, they didn't even freaking thank us! That was the worst feeling, Never getting sucked into that one again... happens all too often with musicians, if you ask me. I used to basically work under the assertion that music was a blessing and I was fortunate to be given the opportunity to share it with others. Then I realized that that mindset and earning money didn't have to be mutually exclusive.
In short, there comes a time where you just have to stand firm for what you believe you're worth. I've seen friendships wrecked over it, and it breaks my heart... but what has to be done has to be done!

[Old Red]

This may not be quite the same thing, but it shows that even the big names are not immune from people trying to hire musicians on the cheap. #I once heard or read an interview with John Duffey in which he described a West Coast promoter who called him looking to hire the Seldom Scene for a California gig. #He said he could pay $3,000. "Which one of us do you want?" asked JD.

Andy

[TommyK]

Mandowilli,

First; ... $25.00 admission and the rest is pay as you go. #They want us to play for 2 hours. #How much I ask? #"Well there is a budget and some of the groups will be getting something". Two weeks before New years, mind you.

Next; ... Attendance always over 50,000. #An admission fee, they sell lots of (really good) seafood, and charge $3.00 a beer. #...Our four piece group with pro sound system for 3 hours? #"We might be able to get you $100.00?"

Sounds to me like on the first two you've been "Low-Balled."
You ARE in a negotiating session. #Your adversary is shooting you an unbelieveably low price to see if you'll bite. #If you do, alls the better.... for them. My guess is they've gotten plenty of 'live ones' in the past that would do it for the 'fame'.
My response (I like to negotiate) is to laugh and remind them of the gate count and multiply by admission price and start your price at a buck a head (50Gs ain't a bad place to start) and find a figure somewhere in the middle. #If you're lucky, they'll bite... (think of the Loars you could buy with that)... get it in writing before he leaves his chair and get the money up front.
Don't mind feeling like you're insulting him by shooting him a 'high-ball'. #If he gets indignant, just as well, he's just insulted you by his stupid offer.

Finally; #Last night. #Amanda ... cello player bailed ... going to pieces about her wedding (next weekend by the way). #Can you save the day (for free)?


From personal experience, she's blown the budget with the dress, flowers, venue, cake, reception hall, caterer, honeymoon ... Daddy's closed the checkbook for good and she just told the cellist she's tapped out and could he do it and get paid ... next month??? ... free??? # The cellist, quite smartly took his rosin and bow and went home.
There's a reason the Dress Maker, Florist, Reception hall, Baker, Caterer... get their money up front. #Why not the musicians? #

Sorry Amanda, you ain't in Kansas any more. #That Fairy Tale wedding you've been planning since you were 12 is just that, a Fairy Tale. #We can only hope the wedding lasts longer than Daddy's payments on the whole affair.
If, in the situation where you're an invitee to the wedding and she asks, Tell her, it will be my wedding gift to you. #If of course you can afford it. #If not respectfully decline. #If she gets miffed and un-invites you, Good. You just saved the cost of a crock pot and a boring reception with canned or free music and your weekend just got freed up.... Now what are you gonna do with your free weekend?

[rhetoric]

I say, (usually when a friend has done something for ME), when I offer to pay and they say, "No, we're friends," I say, "Well you'd better charge your friends because your enemies certainly won't hire you." I know a harpist who, you can imagine, gets asked ALL THE TIME to play for receptions, weddings and etc. and everybody expects it for free. When they ask her to play she now says, "I'd be happy to. My fee is $100 an hour and I get a 15 minute break each hour."

[TommyK]

'course, none of US would ask a friend to build us a mandolin for next to nothin... would we.

[Scott Tichenor]

Dear Bandleader:

We look forward to your performance at our daughter's wedding. If you don't mind, we would like to request a few of our favorite songs.

Please play these during the reception:

A Keith Jarrett composition from his solo series. Please arrange it for full ensemble in the key of B but nothing in 4/4 please.

Mahavishnu Orchestra, "Dance of the Maya" and please have the guitarist play John Mclaughlin's solo from the live performance Nov. 16, 1972 at Chrysler Arena. My wife and I were at that show and we liked his use of polyrhythms.

One of John Coltrane's duets with Pharaoh Sanders. Our guests love high register tenor saxes.

We thought a little Stravinsky right after the toast would be nice. So please play "The Rite of Spring." We like a tempo of about 1/4 note = 93 and transpose it down 3 half-steps - it will be so much more appropriate for this occasion in the slightly lower register.

Then for the candle lighting ceremony, please play Frank Zappa's "The Grand Wazoo." The original key of B flat, would be fine but my cousin Jeannie would like to sing the baritone sax solo in the key of D--she has kind of a high voice.

When my new son-in-law takes off the garter, please just a little of Varese's "Ionization." It's such a funny piece, we think it would go over real well. Much better than "The Stripper."

And for the bride & groom's first dance, please slow things down a bit by doing Barber's "Adagio For Strings." It's so much better than "We've Only Just Begun" or the "Anniversary Waltz."

When my wife and I join in the first dance, could you segue to Thelonius Monk's "Ruby, My Dear" - it's in honor of my wife's grandmother whose name was Ruby. It would mean so much to the family.

Thanks for all your help. Depending on the outcome we'll certainly be happy to recommend your band to our friends

We'll have your check for the fee of $250 (minus our expenses in contacting you of $12.50 ) by the end of next month: we're a little short as the young lady doing the balloon arch wanted her $1,850 in advance and the DJ had to be paid up front his $2,500 as normal.

Our daughter assured us that your love of music was greater than your need for money, and that you would welcome the exposure you would get from playing this wedding.

Before you leave, please feel free to ask the caterer for a snack sandwich and a soda (the bottles are returnable or you can pay the deposit to the butler).

Please use the back entrance to avoid disturbing the guests.

Sincerely yours,
Alice Rockefeller Gates

[TommyK]

Sad part is that with all the specific references to music terminology, Ms. Gates must be a musician... or most likely, a professor of music.

[Scott Tichenor]

The above taken from this web site.

Don't get me started on this topic... LOL! My most recent memorable cr*ppy gig: Kansas governor's inaugural ball. "Sorry, the Democratic party is out of money to pay you..." We get there and there are 1,500 people in the largest convention center in Topeka for a full sit-down served dinner, wine on ever table and probably 200 caterers who I doubt were working for free like we were. Just this trio I was in and a Mariachi band that literally drowned us out every time they played. One word came to mind: FOOLS!

[SternART]

heh-heh-heh-heh-heh!!!

[TommyK]

Weddings and, oh yeah, Political parties. #Everyone gets their money up front. #I've heard even radio / TV stations all have the same policy, regardless of party. No political ads on account. "Show me the money! and we'll do the ad." is their mantra.

Musicians just need to insist on it. #Questions, did the Mariachi band insist on cash up front too? #Did they at least give you a 'take home plate' and a bottle to go?

Also, in the CONTRACT, insist on 'no refunds'. #Caterers don't do refunds, why should you?

Hey, here's an idea to put the stiffs in their place. #After the first number, announce, "We're glad to be here in KC playin' for the Governor. #However, he seems to be a little short and couldn't pay us tonight. #Would y'all mind if we passed the hat?" #CBS, NBC, KC Evening News, et. al. would eat that up!

Tongue not quite so firmly planted in cheek on that last one though. If I were mad enough, I'd sure give it a try. You gotta at least make bus fare home. 'course, don't expect to get a re-booking. Maybe the Republicans in four years would need a band?

[Mandobar]

i have to say that generally people expect people with expertise to perform services on their days off no matter if they are musicians or not. i have stopped visiting certain friends less and less as they always have a problem with their checkbook (i am a banker by trade) or their business accounts or some other god forsaken finance thing. (my cousin once asked me to recalculate their mortgage.........ha!) no dessert served unless you count the pile of bank statements they plop down in front of me.......my mom and dad always had people dropping in because they had just a little something wrong with their car, (my dads family owns a garage)......sheesh.

never work with or for friends or family. charging people you don't know is much easier.

[Rob Powell]

When we did weddings and certain songs were requested, we simply said "sure, it's $100 per song for anything that's not on the song list." Pretty much kept everything to the song list.

I'm a programmer and I'm constantly being asked to fix peoples personal computers when the porn or whatever they downloaded is dialing Sweden transvestites. I'm always curious as to why they think because I'm a programmer that I can fix their computer. I tell them I write programs that work, I don't fix ones that don't. But I digress...

Standing rule for me...unless you're family, it ain't free...and to be quite honest, if someone offers to pay who I know can't afford it, just offering is often enough...at least I know they respect my time.

[mandowilli]

Well actually, I have taken to quoting our highest price to the individuals making these requests. #Just telling someone the truth about what you want is usually the best way to sort em out.
We are all indignant over these situations but my questions remain, "Why are musicians treated this way?" #"Why is the art of live performance valued so poorly in our society?"

willi

[sbarnes]

i could add more to the horror stories here but to simply answer you question.
why are we treated like this:
because we allow ourselves to be treated this way.....and we allow ourselves to be treated this way because if we don't take their offer someone else will.....
doesn't matter that they're probably no good.....most of the audience wouldn't know the difference anyway....

[John Rosett]

remember- "exposure" is something people die of.......

[mandoJeremy]

and you all may want to learn how to spell paid and not payed.

[mandocrucian]

"If I want exposure, I can visit the park in my raincoat."

[bratsche]

I was naive enough to make the mistake of playing a "freebie" just once... we had a string quartet + trumpeter, vocalist and pianist, all pros, and put together one of the best wedding music performances I can remember, donating our services as a gift because most of us attended the same church as the couple, who seemed nice enough. But we hadn't counted on the Bride's mother... what a piece of work she was! This woman ordered us around, treated us like crep and humiliated us in front of the guests. Never again - a hard lesson learned - if you charge nothing, people will treat you like you're worth nothing.

Also recently had the interesting experience of being in the 35-piece string orchestra for the reception following the third wedding of the infamous billionaire down here in FL in late January That's a bit off topic here, because we did get paid, but I'll say that it was one of the most parsimoniously compensated wedding gigs I've ever accepted (considering all the time that was involved, not to mention the people). It was worth it though, just to witness all the gold-leafed decadence and watch all the drunken celebs in attendance. LOL!

bratsche