The Gall to Ask!

[TaxPhd]

I'm kind of surprised that this thread has gone on for 5 pages.

It really isn't about music, it is about business and economics.

Everythig is negotiable, and a low-ball offer is just that. An Offer. You have the opportunity to conter-offer. You will either come to an agreement, or you won't play. It is pretty simple.

"We have expensive equipment, and often expensive educations (from lessons to degrees). Some of the graduate students where I teach have well over $100,000 in school loans. How easy do you think it will be to pay off those loans on what a classical clarinetist can earn?"

It really doesn't matter. People aren't paid based on their financial obligations. They are paid based on the market's perception of their value. If you aren't able to provide value that the buyer sees as being greater than what they can get cheaply or for free, then guess what? You won't be playing there. And remember - your costs to get where you are don't matter at all. Buyers pay for what they perceive as value. And if you aren't able to convice them that what you provide has value, you will be paid little or not at all.

Some people are fine drinking "free" water out of the tap. Others believe that they need to pay for Evian. Music, or any other business, is no different.

If you are upset that a band plays for free in a venue where you believe that you should have been paid for performing, then guess what. The market has spoken, and has said that you do not provide value greater that what is being provided for free. The solution is to work on your music and your marketing.



Scott

[TonyP]

I guess it's gone on for 5 pgs Scott because like most things in the US now, polarization over perceived "ideologies" make a chasm that points of matter can't cross. I agree, it is about business and economics. Negotiation, I wish, was part of the deal with music but at the lower tiers your pretty much at the owners mercy. Yes you can walk and we do. We have a split in our band as there are those that just want to "play" and that makes negotiation hard because you need a united front. Where I really take issue is the slide into the new religion of the "market". IT is just a perception, it has no rules, logic, nothin. It's just a way to boil something to a black and white little sound bite. This whole thing was conceived by "race to the bottom" boys to refute worth by it being "perceived", by whom? Not the customers. The owner, the middle man. This is all just circular meaningless tripe that is just a hold over from slave days thinking. And when I say there's no rules, just like the idea that the expensive equipment and experience don't matter it proves the point. When you go to get any job, your equipment and experience don't matter? Maybe to all the white collar folks that seem to be in the crowd of higher consciousness that music is somehow tainted by money. As a blue collar boy for the last 30yrs my education and my toolbox directly dictated my "perceived worth". I can't fathom the logic that separates that out from a musician. The idea that Willi has been somehow "judged" by the market is amazing to me. The owners of the place are NOT the market, they are just the profiteers the 'market' idiom was invented for. They are making money off the band and it's too bad the band can't go straight to the market(the people who are enjoying the music) because they would probably get paid well. I'll bet most in the audience would be shocked to find out they are playing for. Your final statement seems to indicate you've never had to deal with owners. Even if they are making a profit they are hiding it and can NEVER make enough. Meanwhile you can have a good following and be bringing in business that wouldn't normally be there but the owners are so constantly miserable they are having to pay someone. Sometimes it seems like they would like to have less business but not have to pay the band. Most owners are not businessmen, just opportunists, ask any of their employees. Yeah, I know, well they can move on too. Let em eat cake.....

[JimD]

Thanks TonyP.

You are right . It has boiled down to a sound bite mentality. It is difficult to get any meaningful discussion going when you just get answered with the "market" mantra.

[Stephen Perry]

Same thing with instruments - musicians who get on stage seem to expect extra discounts for the "exposure." And with law - people ask advice all the time. I know a couple of people who simply give all the advice asked for - then send a bill! I suspect an educational talk is the appropriate response. Having a printed list of prices for different types of events might be useful. Indicate verbally that this is what the entire band agreed was very fair and that the rates aren't really negotiable.

[J. Mark Lane]

Same thing with instruments - musicians who get on stage seem to expect extra discounts for the "exposure." #And with law - people ask advice all the time. #I know a couple of people who simply give all the advice asked for - then send a bill! #I suspect an educational talk is the appropriate response. #Having a printed list of prices for different types of events might be useful. #Indicate verbally that this is what the entire band agreed was very fair and that the rates aren't really negotiable.

Very good point, Steve -- that musicians in effect do the same thing when they want "special treatment" from luthiers. I wonder how many of the high and mighty righteous posting here have done that?


I don't really want to wade into these waters too far. I'm not a professional musician, and am not good enough to even think about getting paid (maybe someday). But having followed this thread, I would like to make one comment, and that is that there is just too much "black and white" here. Too many people drawing firm lines in the sand and not seeing the gray areas. And as Tony says, the reason for that is the old devil "ideology" (oh how I hate ideology) (is that an ideology? <g&gt. Ironically, even Tony's post is "ideological," with it's "working class politics" bent. In fact, it's hard not to be ideological-- it takes effort (and awareness).

I guess my point is that human experience is (thankfully) far too diverse to apply Firm Rules and Hard Principles to the act of playing music. Every human being is different, and every situation is different, and everybody makes their own decisions. And that's good. So I leave it at that, and try not to make judgments about people.

Oh, and as for the law thing, I'm constantly tempted, Steve...to "just send a bill." I have done it on occasion just to get someone to stop pestering me. I'm also tempted to have a minimum charge of, say, $500 a pop for questions like "Can they really do what they did on The Practice last night?"

LOL. I'm sure glad I didn't become a doctor. At least we don't have an ethical obligation to rise to every occasion that presents itself.

Mark

[mandowilli]

This thread has gone on for 6 pages because it is about music. #My band played a wedding ceremony yesterday and it was music that they wanted and music that they got. #And music that they payed for. #As the crowd hit the bar while we were still on, I noticed the DJ who was going to do his thing after us, and I thought about this thread. #I caught up with him after we were through and asked him if he ever works for free. #He laughed at me and walked away.

I think I will try that next time.

willi

http://www.onestreetover.net/pages/1/index.htm

[OdnamNool]

LOL. #I'm sure glad I didn't become a doctor. #At least we don't have an ethical obligation to rise to every occasion that presents itself. #

Mark

Proudly, I come from a family of doctors. Doctors who have done MIRICLES for NO MONEY. Because they are wonderful, helping, human beings... Peace.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

OK here's a twist on the subject.
My rock band runs a festival in the late summer/early fall every year (4 yrs. so far, planning #5). All free. No admissions, no pay. We have 60+ bands/soloists on 5 stages and 2 street venues. High school level to seasoned pro. All genres. More applicants than we can handle sometimes. Those who won't play for no $ don't apply, but it's suprising who DOES apply. We feed everybody, thanks to the local restaurants, supermarkets, culinary arts pros, etc.
Turns the whole downtown into a music extravaganza. No vendors, to be fair to the local establishments. We raise the funds from local businesses and the costs are suprisingly very reasonable. Biggest expense is paying for the local 800 seat theatre, the "big" tent, and all the sound folks. Huge volunteer effort. The interesting factor is that as long as it is not about money, the difficulty of raising funds and services just melts away. Under these circumstances, the generosity of our local business community is a wonderous thing.
The point of the whole thing is to create a special day; a special event unlike any other. One that truly breaks through some of the rigid "market"concepts of music and venue. It is not meant to undermine anyone or any position. It is a celebration of the gift of music. Both the giving and receiving aspects.
Yes, it's an administrative nightmare at times. Last year we forged ahead in torrential rains. Memorable.
We usually get a crowd of 2 - 4K and it grows every year. That's kind of a problem in itself, and we plan to change some things around this year to keep the beast managable.
I have heard the gall issue directed at me, and after some initial soul searching, I am now clear - we have a particular ideal and goals. We invite musicians to participate if they wish to. Period.

rasa

[J. Mark Lane]

LOL. #I'm sure glad I didn't become a doctor. #At least we don't have an ethical obligation to rise to every occasion that presents itself. #

Mark

Proudly, I come from a family of doctors. #Doctors who have done MIRICLES for NO MONEY. #Because they are wonderful, helping, human beings... #Peace.

And the respect and gratitude I feel for those doctors is difficult to express. I have known many doctors over the years, including very close friends as well as, of course, my own medical professionals. It never ceases to amaze me what fantastic people they are. It takes a lot to become a doctor, and it takes an iron will to live with the demanding requirements our society places on them in order to practice their art. You have to really want to do it. God bless them!

I trust you know my previous comment was very much tongue in cheek.

Mark

[OdnamNool]

You are right, Mark... It is an art...

[TaxPhd]

"And when I say there's no rules, just like the idea that the expensive equipment and experience don't matter it proves the point. When you go to get any job, your equipment and experience don't matter?"

Of course it matters. It goes into creating the final deliverable that the customer is paying for. And if the customer doesn't believe that it is worth what you are charging, then you won't get paid. What is so hard to unsderstand about this? Does the customer care that you have 20 years of experience, and $50,000 worth of equipment? No. They care about what you are able to deliver. And if they don't perceive the value in what you deliver, they won't pay. Simple, really.

It seems like a lot of people belive that they have the right, that they deserve, to earn at a certain level. They won't work for X, because they believe that they are worth 5X. Guess what - if no one is willing to pay you 5X, you aren't worth it. No matter how much you believe to the contrary. No matter how many years of lessons you have had, no matter your level of education, or the money you have in equipment. You are only worth what someone is willing to pay for what you provide.

It's simple economics, guys. You may not like it, but it is the reality that you are faced with.



Scott

[J. Mark Lane]

"Simple economics" is perhaps for simple people.

In reality, "economics" is not so simple. The notion that "price equals value" is itself rather simplistic: there are many variables that can effect the equation, even viewed from within the conceptual framework from which that notion originates. For example, current or recent events may alter the demand for a brief time; or demographic changes; or who won the Grammies that year; or whether a local figure or person of authority is interested; or whether the price is artificially inflated for one reason or another. Price does not necessarily equal value, except perhaps for a brief, given moment, based on an almost infinite set of often unpredictable variables. And that "price" may be very different next week, or a mile down the road, or after tonight's news, or when the local mayor resigns...etc etc etc etc etc. To take this (very simplistic) principle of value and elevate it to the level of an Absolute is not only foolish, but utterly inconsistent with the writings of the very economists and scholars who developed the concept.

But beyond that, even if price can equal value, even if "value" does not exist, as a concept or a reality, outside of a "market price," then it cannot be the "true value" except in a perfect market. And you simple cannot have a perfect market with something as unique and individualized as live music. So the entire concept of "market forces" really has to be set aside when you are talking about the prices to be paid for live music on a local level (it would be different at the "Madison Square Garden" level).

What someone is willing to pay is nothing more than that: what someone is willing to pay. If Bill Monroe and the Blue Grass Boys had settled down in Peoria in 1946, and the only person who wanted to hire them was the father of a local bride, and he only had a $5 because he was a factory worker, and he was currently laid off at that...and he wanted a bad with a mandolin because his grandfather from Italy used to play the mandolin...and so, that was that...would that mean that mean that the Blue Grass Boys were only "worth" $5 per show?

I don't know why I'm getting into this mess. As I said, I dislike ideology. And economics almost always becomes infused with ideology, whether its purveyors realize it or not. In my own Ph.D. program (in economics, btw...many years ago), I studied under one of the world's leading scholars of Adam Smith, often said to be the founder of modern capitalist economic theory. He used to often say, if there is only one thing you learn about Adam Smith, it should be that he never espoused the kind of simplistic "market economics" that are often attributed to him in the popular literature...and even in certain graduate schools (eh-hm...like certain places in an urban setting in Illinois <g&gt. The real scholars of this stuff know that it ain't that simple.

Mark

[JimD]

Right about now I'm wondering why I've stuck with this for six pages.

I've come to the realization that you really can't have a meaningful conversation about this when the experiences are so diverse. Already, I've been accused of not having respect for people who don't earn their living in music (not true), being elitist (also not true) etc.

To the contrary, I feel that there is plenty of animosity pointed THIS way.

My attempts at raising certain points have been met with one or another version of the same answer -- "the market".

Simple repetition of the same answer over and over again is a time-honored way of stopping the discourse.

But, as I stated before, perhaps the most frustrating thing is being lectured on the business by people who (admittedly) aren't in the business.

I've had enough.

So, I am going to bow out of it at this point.

One down. Keep repeating the market mantra and you'll eventually have the floor all to yourselves.

[TonyP]

I'm sorry to see you go Jim, but I agree.
Right on J.Mark. We don't have to agree and I don't expect everybody to, but to at least know that someone is listening makes me believe I live in the same world as the person I'm talking to. That's why this is a worthwhile place for me, the Cafe. I don't have alot in common with many of the folks here but we do all play the mandolin. That is at least one commonality that can let us have a conversation. It's not a conversation when someone just says, what's the problem, I'm right and your ignorant. There are more thoughtful people on the Cafe than I bump into here in the badlands of CA. To address an earlier point J. Mark, ideology to ME is based on "faith". Now I certainly know I'm on shaky ground here being that I'm not of the caliber mentally of so many here with PHD's MBA's and law degree's etc,but so much of what is taken for granted is just an agreed upon reality. That faith gives grounds for judgement. In contrast I think my "working class" values you perceive as ideology I got from living and working in that world. There's no "faith" involved, just the bumps on the head of knocking into the limits of it's confines. I'm not complaining, I don't want the "American Dream" of 2 Hummer's in the driveway, of a house so big I can't maintain it myself, the Jones' out consumed. But I do get my undies in a bunch when I think that the agreed up reality of that class has decided that art and music can't be properly commodified because of "perceived value".
To me the pattern here is people who seem to preface that they don't see themselves as "pro's", saying that they are playing for a higher cause, entertainment, enjoyment etc. I now see they feel attacked for playing for free(probably a total duh to everybody else but me). Ideology has a way of making trigger points that cause the chasms that separate our society. When people experience the different "walks" this gets healed. I think you making the example of Mr. Monroe and playing mandolin is great. I know Mr. Monroe didn't play for free just because he loved the music.

[TaxPhd]

Mark,

I don't really disagree. I think our differences, if indeed there are any, are really the classic differences between accountants and economists.

A question. Do you make a case for an inherent value, apart from what might be evidenced by a market price?

With your Bill Monroe example, "...would that mean that mean that the Blue Grass Boys were only "worth" $5 per show?" my response as an accountant is, "Of Course." At that time and place, with no other offers, the value is $5. How else can value be measured, except by what someone is willing to pay in an arms-length transaction?



Scott

[J. Mark Lane]

Scott,

I don't "make a case" at all. That's part of my point.

That said, there are, of course, other theories of value, and have been for at least several centuries. One theory, which is still accepted by many people around the world, keys value to costs of creation. For Marx, for example, this was embodied in the so-called "labor theory of value." That theory incorporated not only the fixed costs of production, but also the costs (to society overall) of the existence and subsistence of the laboring people themselves. (The German word for this, which Marx coined, was "liebensmittel", and I don't believe there is an equivalent English word.)

For artistic endeavors, some theories of value (such as the ones noted above) take into account the costs (to society, to the individual -- really the same thing) of the effort and time required to lead up to the creative moment.

Of course, it is difficult to work such notions of "value" into a market economy. Difficult, but not impossible. In some ways, the model provided by the National Endowments for the Arts can illustrate ways of doing this.

Anyway, in light of all this...I don't like hard and fast notions of "value." To me, price is just...price. Then and there.

BTW, I am not an economist. I bailed out ABD and became a lawyer.

Mark

[TaxPhd]

If you made it to the ABD stage, you're an economist. Suffering through the dissertation would just make you a masochist.

p.s., PM sent

[Jaded]

There are plenty of people who write, play music, paint, play baseball, act or any number of things for free.

That doesn't stop a few very talented or very lucky people from making millions of dollars doing these things.

The problem with trying to compare these activities with normal jobs is, there aren't a whole lot of people who would do most normal jobs for fun, exposure or whatever, at least not on the sort of regular and competent basis that most employers expect.

Thus, there is a market of people willing to pay you to do these things.

There are millions of people of varying skill levels willing to do these other things for fun, exposure or ego and there just isn't that large of a market for people to do it on a regular and competent basis.

I imagine if your local semi pro baseball team came and bitched at you for playing in your summer softball league in the park for free, you'd think they were out of their f'in minds.

It's nice to think we somehow deserve or are entitled to earn a living playing music, but it just ain't so. Sorry.

[MartinD_GibsonA]

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay for what you provide.

I'm not an economist, accountant *or* attorney, but I don't think you have to be to get Scott's (AKA TaxPhD) point; I don't see how it could be any simpler. #There's a story (Urban legend?) about how in his prime, Humphrey Bogart commanded some -- at that time -- outrageous fee per picture. #(Let's say $250,00 just for the sake of argument.) #A reporter once asked him, "What makes you think you're worth a quarter of a million dollars to make a movie?" #His reply ... "I'm worth it because I can get it!" #Following the rules of logic, the converse is also true -- if you can't get it, then you're not worth it, at least to *THAT* "buyer", no matter how strongly you may think otherwise.

Don Smith

[mrbook]

The range of comments here just shows how money matters can make everyone crazy. Whether someone has a degree in economics, business, or whatever, most of these questions are not that simple. Most of us would think that a good mandolin is worth $1,000, $2,000, or $10,000. Our average non-playing listener might think they are worth $200. It doesn't make them right, and it doesn't make that a market price. I don't understand why any guitar owned by Jerry Garcia seems to sell for more than a Loar, but buyers seem to be there. I'm not one of them.

I think if someone asks you to play they should also offer compensation. No question about it. How much that is, and whether you think it is fair for your time, is up to you. When our group started out, we had one member (no longer with us) who thought we should practice a lot in hopes of getting $300 for an hour's performance. It sounded good, but at the time it seemed unlikely. I said, "No one will pay us that, but some will pay us $100 to play for three hours - let's take those and get some performing experience." We did, and now people do pay us $300 or more for an hour show - sometimes. We still go and play for very little money at a new club run by the guy that gave us our first paying gig years ago. Even he jokes about how little he can pay (and he really can't pay more from the heads I count), but I've told him we wouldn't be making the big money elsewhere if we hadn't learned to play in his club.

There is no set price to get us to leave our house - then it would seem only about money, and that is only one factor that gets us to play (but an important one). I'm not always sure why we get $800 one place, $250 someplace else, and once in a while we might even play for $100. In each case, the amount seemed right for the event - some people don't have much money, but it's fun playing for them, we are treated well, and they always recommend us for jobs that pay a lot more. In the end, it works out for us and our listeners.

We will also take a free one now and then usually for a good cause (I assume that the stars at Farm Aid and other benefits aren't getting paid) or for events like the one rasa mentioned a few posts ago, where many participate and no one gets paid. If it seems like fun, we want to be part of it. We don't do open mics or "auditions" where a club gets a free show. Just to prove a point, we tried a "showcase" last year; we did well, the owner promised to hire us, but every inquiry I've made is answered with, "Not yet - probably next month..."

One of the dark sides of human nature is that some people want the knowledge or help of others for free. I joke about getting to the point where I get free instruments and strings (I could really use the strings), but don't expect to get there - I would also like one of those people who run out with a new instrument when you break a string. I expect to pay when I get something done; if people have extended me courtesies or favors, I make a point to do something in return. Doctors. lawyers, accountants, mechanics, and everyone else will be asked for free advice; I'm a rare book dealer, and people always want free appraisals that I cannot give. Some are just curious, and I don't worry about those who don't understand my position.

Play - if people are making money from your playing, get some for yourself. Expensive instruments, equipment, and lessons doesn't make you worth more in itself, but if you have laid out some cash, make sure your performance is good enough to get some of it back.

[Paul Kotapish]

If you remove the "gall" from the equation, it's not nearly so vexing an issue. There's no harm--or gall--in someone asking for an artistic contribution as long as they are willing to take "no" for an answer. As the conversation hear reveals, there are plenty of folks willing to play for free at least some of the time. The secret is to find a policy that feels good and just for your own needs, stick to it, and maintain a big sense of humor about it all.

The monetary value of art is always market driven and it rarely makes any sense.

Mozart died a pauper, Monroe played for peanuts, and Moondog serenaded on a street corner while Britney Spears and Yanni are rich. And there are guys playing real good for free all over town.

[generankin]

30 years ago, when I was younger & stupider, I played bass in a blues band. We'd play certain free gigs: the Mifflin Street (student area) block party, Anti-Mil Ball, a short radio gig, but the rest (once people knew who we were), we got paid for. Not much, sometimes, but the instruments, the amps, the gas to get to the gig, all cost money. We all did the Right Thing and joined the union, but did the union lift a finger to enforce scale? Not a chance in the world. Best we got out of them were some Musician's Trust Fund gigs, for which we got scale.

The bluegrass band I was in only played out once, but got paid for it (the rest of the time it was at someone's back porch every Wednesday).

When I got married, we hired friends to play. And we paid them, both the brass quintet and the bluegrass band. Exactly what they asked, too.

We've revived that blues band, some 30 years later, but the guitarist is used to getting paid and I don't care, would be perfectly willing to play for the fun of it. We'll probably do it his way (though we'll play in jams for nothing but the fun of it).








I used to be an economist, too (ABD), but I gave it up for law as well.

[lindensensei]

Mando Johhny,
Try and get Doshu to do a seminar for free. #Heck, for that matter, try and get Yamada. #Same thing. #And yes, when Doshu does come, we pay HUGE ammounts. #And darn glad to do it.

Sorry guys, same thing, different instrument. #Sort of.

Oh, and one more thing; who would have had the utter temerity to have asked O'Sensei to teach a class for nothing? O'Sensei was very well paid.