Turned a Small Problem into a Big Mistake

[Kennyz55]

I didn't like the finish on my Savannah mandolin and wanted to learn to hand apply sunbursts after spraying on guitars. I figured before I tried to make my Siminoff F5 or IV A I could practice on my cheap mandolin. I was trying to remove the dark spot in the middle. The top is now too thin and separated. I'm thinking about buying a Smith Creek top. Is there any other alternative?

[sunburst]

Is there any other alternative?

I'd say the best alternative is to proceed with the kit mandolins, scrap this one and chalk it up to experience. Replacing the top would be a big job and result in a mandolin worth far less than the expense and effort that went into it.

[Petrus]

Would you consider selling it as-is? I'm not necessarily making an offer, just curious. Fill-in putty for the gap? I've played instruments with holes and gaps all over the place, to no ill effect. Then again, you're probably going to salvage the neck and head.

[Marty Jacobson]

Petrus, it's a goner, as the top is way too thin now for it to support string tension, much less sound good.
KennyZ55, at least you can chalk this one up to experience without having endangered a scratch-built instrument.

[Meadowview]

I didn't like the finish on my Savannah mandolin and wanted to learn to hand apply sunbursts after spraying on guitars. I figured before I tried to make my Siminoff F5 or IV A I could practice on my cheap mandolin. I was trying to remove the dark spot in the middle. The top is now too thin and separated. I'm thinking about buying a Smith Creek top. Is there any other alternative?

Never say never, I think it would be worth the try to put a "post", like a sound post in a fiddle under the separation, this could be done in the manner that some people use to install a sound post in a fiddle, glue the joint and clamp it on top of the post. Be patient and let the glue set up real good. I don't think that part of the top is under much pressure from the strings. If you think about it, the strings put pressure on the bridge, the bridge spreads it out to the feet of the bridge which sets on top of the tone bars, which helps support the top.

It might take a couple of tries to get the post to the right height and I would be careful about making the post too small in diameter, matter of fact a small piece of wood, like a bar, probably would work better. Be careful with the clamp and place both ends in line with the piece of wood.

Good luck--------------

[Meadowview]

BTW, be careful and don't get too much glue on the piece of wood or let it run down the piece of wood onto the back or you will have a problem removing the wood once you get the crack repaired.

[Bill Snyder]

... I don't think that part of the top is under much pressure from the strings. If you think about it, the strings put pressure on the bridge, the bridge spreads it out to the feet of the bridge which sets on top of the tone bars, which helps support the top...

But the split is right were the bridge sits.

[Bernie Daniel]

Is it possible to purchase very thin spruce veneer? I'm thinking like 0.2mm or the like -- if so perhaps you couldthen add back some wood to the thin area and re-sand smooth

[Kennyz55]

I had it strung after the crack and the bridge seems to sit on the outside of the tone bars distributing the weight towards the outside not towards the seam. Bernie BTW I have a 1955 Martin D 28 that's top crack is held together by a popsicle stick put in the T.J. Thompson a great guitar Luthier. It's been held together for about 30 years.

[Bluetickhound]

Have you seen this video? You might want to use the Savannah as a test bed to try this out...

[mrmando]

Putting a soundpost in a mandolin kills the tone, and won't fix the problem of sanding the top too thin. Kenny can still practice putting a new finish on this mandolin, even if it no longer sounds right.

[Jeff Mando]

Reminds me of years ago when I worked at a vintage guitar shop. David Grisman stopped by and we enjoyed hearing some of his stories. I remember him telling about early in his career he "fixed" a sinking top on a mandolin by getting a big bolt and some nuts from the hardware store and jacking up the top. We had to ask, how did it sound? He said it was BETTER!

[Pasha Alden]

Good luck with that one Marty!

[Kennyz55]

What about gluing something to the outside halves and pulling it into place before using hide glue to seal the crack?

[Ron Cox]

What about adding a tone bar right behind the crack then filling the crack? Something to support the split.

These are all just experiments and experience gathering. If you fix it, you're a hero, even if it doesn't sound as good (it may sound better, who knows). If you don't even try, it remains broken. I'm the kind of person that would love the experience of trying to fix it no matter how slight the chance of success. But I'm futzy putzy, my hands always need to be doing something.

[Kennyz55]

Ron,
How would I get in inside?

[Meadowview]

Putting a soundpost in a mandolin kills the tone, and won't fix the problem of sanding the top too thin. Kenny can still practice putting a new finish on this mandolin, even if it no longer sounds right.

I wasn't saying to put a sound post in the mandolin and leave it, I meant to place it there to use like a "jack". If you look in lots of old fiddle you see a string tied around the sound post, that was the means they used to install them. They would tie the sound post in the middle of a piece of string, drop one end of the string and the post down through a "f" hole, fish the end they had dropped into the fiddle out and with the string stand the post up where they wanted it. What I was saying was to use that method and put a piece of wood inside then with a deep clamp around the entire mandolin, glue and clamp the separated top back together, then remove the "post". This would just be another version of using bolts and nuts to jack the top up as David Grisman was quoted as doing. Biggest problem is having access to place anything in side. Someone mentioned a "tone bar" under the crack, probably would work, but how are you going to get it there?

[Marty Jacobson]

You can try whatever you like and I'm sure you'll learn something. But at this point, there is no reasonable way to make it look acceptable and support string tension for any reasonable length of time. You can pop off fretboard, extension support and top plate and glue on a new top plate. To my mind that's at least equal to the work of building a mandolin from scratch, but significantly more frustrating at each step of the process.

[CES]

I'd like to give a shout out to the professional and experienced amateur luthiers who are so willing to share their expertise. Greatly appreciated.

As for the mandolin in question, I think I'm with Marty. It's not worth the effort to fix. Then again, it's now a perfect practice mandolin for whatever modifications you think you may want to do later to better instruments, and there's certainly no harm in trying to fix it. Someday I'm going to attempt to regraduate the top and back on a Kentucky I have that's way overbuilt, just for the experience. That one will also probably be my first fret job, too.

[Kennyz55]

Marty,
If I put a really nice top on it will it sounds like a Loar. LOL Thanks to everyone for all the help. I'll think about it over the weekend and then decide what I'm going to do.
PS will I sound like Riesman Grisman or Sam Bush with the new top?

[bart mcneil]

It may not be worth the money to fix but it certainly would be worth the time and learning experience to fix it without replacing the front.

For repair either the front or back needs to be removed.... The back removal would give you complete access to the interior and bracing and will allow you to rebuild the top from the backside... As suggested above I have found a package of ice cream bar or Popsicle sticks a wonderful and easy means of strengthening or rebuilding weak areas of the top, bottom, or sides. They are cut from hard wood and can be shaped and bent as needed for reinforcing a weak area on the body of a mandolin.... I use them for making cleats for crack repair or any strengthening of the interior of the mandolin,,,,,, In my opinion this will give you a great learning experience and enhance your understanding of how the instrument operates,,,,, It is a cheap mando so you have everything to gain and very little to lose.

This sort of repair (top strengthening) is done on Gibsons so why not yours????

[Pete Jenner]

It's cactus. It's an ex-mandolin. Let it rest in pieces.

[Marty Jacobson]

PS will I sound like Riesman Grisman or Sam Bush with the new top?

Yank Rachell. :-)

Every build has some element of "repair work" as part of the process. But knowing when to hold 'em and knowing when to fold 'em is also a part of the process. I have seven instruments ranging from 80% complete to 100% complete which hang on the walls of my shop, abandoned. Sometimes the only way I can get myself to move on when the time is right is to run it through the bandsaw. It's painful, but it's always a relief to move on.

[Dale Ludewig]

Yes, I think a great deal has been learned from this experiment already. Maybe enough. Although for practice on finishing it would find some more use. But you'd be reminded all the time of past mistakes.

Marty, going through the bandsaw is only painful for the first quarter inch. After that, it's all relief.

[Ron Cox]

Kenny, you would have to work thru the soundholes if you don't remove the back. How bad could it sound? It would have to be better sounding than right now, right?