composing project

[bratsche]

I have Finale NotePad only... which doesn't allow anything with an irregular or unspecified meter, unless I'm missing something. I had envisioned more of a typical folk tune where this wouldn't be an issue, but I can't even get up a page to work on, unless I first specify a time signature. Anyone know a work-around for that?

I don't know how to write specifically for guitar either, so I thought I'd write visualizing a mandola or OM, and hope a guitarist could play it... although there is a guitar and a mandolin in NotePad, but no CBOMs. What an unsophisticated little program, this! (And what's with the acronym CBOM, anyway - where's the Mandola in that? harrummph!)

bratsche

[JimD]

re: writing for guitar:

You all understand the major features of plucked instruments already. You can't do a double stop on a single string. You can't crescendo a single pitch

Seriously, it just isn't that different from writing for mandolin.

If you don't want to write for guitar, just write your variation for unaccompanied mandolin and the guitar can lay out for a variation.

On the other hand, writing for guitar is not that hard. The basics are as follows:

Guitar is written in treble clef sounding an octave lower than written -- beginning with the E below middle C (written that is).

The tuning is as follows from the lowest to highest E, A, D, G, B, E. Since it is played with the right hand fingers, you don't even have to stick to things on adjacent strings. A great variety of chords and double stops are possible.
Two part counterpoint is fairly easy to realize on the instrument. This would make a 3 voice texture pretty easy to accomplish with the addition of mandolin.

An even easier solution is two write in two parts -- one for guitar and one for mandolin. It would be very difficult to come up with an unplayable solution this way and that kind of texture can be very effective.

Yet another option would be to ask a guitarist to look over what you've written and assess the playability. There are several of us here. I wouldn't mind offering that kind of help if anyone desires it.

[JimD]

Bratsche,

I wish I could help with Notepad. There are ways of dealing with these things in the full version of Finale -- but it is expensive.

You could always write by hand and scan it...

[margora]

JimD: it is possible to play a double-stop on a single string on guitar, cf. the end of Villa-Lobos etude #2. You fret the note with the second or third finger (left hand), pluck with the right and simultaneously pluck to the LEFT of the fretted note with the first finger of the left hand. I AM NOT recommending this, just a point of clarification.

I am ready and willing to read anyone's guitar part.

[onthefiddle]

Bratsche - have you looked at Lilypond at all?

I've never tried it, so can't comment either way.
It does look like it should be more sophisticated than Finale NotePad though, and has the big advantage of being free!

Jon

[Martin Jonas]

OK -- I'm a music theory naif (largely), but I have a handy live-in Phd musicologist to help me along, so I might give it a go.

Are we specifying a fixed length for each variation? The original four bars of the theme that Jim posted? Although that might be a bit very minimalist, so maybe with a set number of (varied) repeats?

Martin

[Embergher]

Are we specifying a fixed length for each variation? #The original four bars of the theme that Jim posted? #Although that might be a bit very minimalist, so maybe with a set number of (varied) repeats?
Martin

I think variations are quite free ... so the theme could be found in the same number of bars as the original, but also in more or less bars, depending on the rythm used ... it could even be used in whole notes per bar (as a 'cantus firmus') ... anything is possible. I has to be a 'variation' after all, so there is no need to keep strictly to the original form of the theme.

[angrymandolinist]

If it's not too late, I wouldn't mind having a go at it. Don't expect Grieg, but I'll give it my best effort. Reading Walter Piston's Harmony should make writing at least a single-line guitar part not too difficult.

Once it's all gelled, maybe someone should post the "official" rules for this project.

[JimD]

[/QUOTE]Once it's all gelled, maybe someone should post the "official" rules for this project. [QUOTE]

Rules? We don't need no stinking rules!

Really, it is very simple. Compose a variation on the first few lines of the Dies Irae -- for either guitar and mandolin or mandolin solo. Length doesn't matter (but try to stay within the bounds of good taste

You can lengthen the durations (or change them), repeat the melody, etc.

Composers aren't bound by the rules of theory, we make them. Later on they are codified by theorists and put into books that are occasionally treated as gospel by less than talented teachers.

[NYClassical]

wow, the dies irie! can i write mine for 16 mandobasses and percussion? just kidding

adam

[Martin Jonas]

Well, I've been playing around with the Dies Irae last night and today, and have come up with a fairly simple and short variation. As I've done this by myself (not using my girlfriend's musicology expertise) and it's the first thing I've ever written, it will no doubt be the most primitive of the variations, so I thought I might just as well go first to lower the bar.

In order to make the tune a bit more lively, I've changed the mandolin part into a rather bouncy dance tune, with a rhythm broadly inspired by the renaissance lute tune "Tordion". I haven't put any dynamic marks in, but the time signature should be observed closely to put the accents in the right places. I play this fairly lively, at around 1/4=120 (working out at about a minute for the entire variation) but feel free to experiment with a faster or slower tempo.

The guitar part is much more simple, mostly because I don't play the guitar and didn't want to put anything fancy in that may not be playable. As it is, I was aiming for an early music feel, with a drone on the first (A) and fifth (E) and the notes of the Dies Irae interspersed in between at a steady tempo. If any guitar player is sufficiently intrigued and/or bored to try to play this, please let me know whether this works or whether there is anything that would make it sound better and/or make it more fun to play for a guitarist. I have only played the mandolin part and hope this guitar part doesn't clash too badly.

Martin

Both parts in abc format:

X:1
T:Dies Irae (Mandolin)
C:Martin Jonas
M:6/8
L:1/8
N:Play open strings where possible.
R:
K:Amin
|:cde dcB|[M:3/4]c2 Ac Be|ge Ac Bc|[M:6/8]c2 c d2 B|
cde dcB|[M:3/4]A2 G2 B2|c2 B2 A2|A6|
[M:6/8]cde dcB|[M:3/4]c2 Ac Be|ge Ac Bc|[M:6/8]c2 c d2 B|
cde dcB|[M:3/4]A2 G2 B2|c2 B2 A2|E4 G2|
[M:6/8]Ace ecA|[M:3/4]A2 GB cB|1c6:|2A6|]

X:2
T:Dies Irae (Guitar)
C:Martin Jonas
M:6/8
L:1/8
N:Play open strings where possible.
R:
K:Amin
A,Ec EBe|A,Ec EAe|A,EB EGe|A,EA EAe|
A,Ec Ece|A,Ec Ede|A,Ec EBe|A,EA EGe|
A,EB Ece|A,EB EAe|A,EA EAe|A,EG EAe|
A,EA EAe|A,EA EGe|A,EB EBe|A,Ec Ece|
A,EB EBe|A,EA EAe|1A,EA EAe:|2[A,6E6A6e6]|]

Mandolin part in standard notation (Edit: I've just noticed that there's a "6/8" missing in bar 9, to indicate the change in time signature):

[Martin Jonas]

And the guitar part:

[bratsche]

No, no, no, Martin, mine is going to be the most primitive one; I will guarantee you that! However don't y'all think we shouldn't be showing each other prematurely what we've come up with, so as not to influence one another in any way? I mean, it's hard enough to concentrate on this without hearing the treatments of Berlioz, Liszt, Rachmaninoff et al. in my head... but I, by my lonesome, can't even put stuff down on a staff without relying on hearing the instantaneous feedback of the computer to tell me how it sounds. ¡Qué lástima!

Jim, I suppose, will be the lucky one to arrange all of our efforts in a "logical" (cough, cough) order, yes?

bratsche

[Martin Jonas]

Bratsche --

Originality is overrated: I think one should hear as many other treatments in one's head as possible. Stealing from only one source is plagiarism; stealing from ten different ones is creativity.

I think that everybody who has a variation ready should post it. That way, momentum can build up and we have some sort of idea of whether we're the only one working on this or whether there's a real community effort underway. I think inspiring each other and cross-polinating each others' efforts is a good thing. The only alternative would be to impose a deadline by which everybody should submit their version to a co-ordinator (Jim?). I feel that would be more awkward, as many of us lead busy lives and wouldn't be able to meet a tight deadline, whereas as a generous deadline would dissipate the momentum.

While I'm posting, I'll add some technical notes. There was some discussion above about what format is most suitable for sharing our variations. I propose to use abc. I had never written anything in that format before, but it took me only about an hour to figure out how to use it today. You can find all the information about the abc format here. To write tunes in abc format, I recommend ABC Navigator, which is free and displays the tunes directly in standard notation. That program can print standard notation, but unfortunately doesn't export them as a graphic file, so I've used this very useful web site to generate the graphic files above from my abc file. Compared to Bratsche's comments above about the limitations of Finale Notepad, you can see that abc manages irregular time signatures just fine. Finally, for this collective project, the main advantage of abc is that it will make collating everybody's version into one big score very straightforward.

Martin

[angrymandolinist]

I'll probably have mine up tomorrow- it bears scant resemblance to the original melody, and the guitar part's pretty busy. Might work better after a few other people's variations. The only trouble I'm running in to is getting my MIDI in ABC format.

[JimD]

Thanks to Martin for being the first to take the leap from talking about composing to actually doing it.

I agree that anyone who has something ready should just post it. I don't think we'll have a problem with variety.

If two variations are rather similar, they can be used in interesting ways to contribute to the structure and flow of the overall piece. Beethoven has a great example of this in the 32 Variations in c minor (WoO 80). The theme is 8 measures long. Having two or more consecutive variations based on the same idea keeps the piece from sounding too "blocky" (how's that for a technical term...) and feeling like it is stopping after every eight measures.

I guess that what I mean to say is that we shouldn't worry about originality too much. That is the surest way to keep us from writing.

Pardon my semiconscious ramblings -- perhaps I should be fully awake before posting...

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks to Martin for being the first to take the leap from talking about composing to actually doing it.

If two variations are rather similar, they can be used in interesting ways to contribute to the structure and flow of the overall piece. Beethoven has a great example of this in the 32 Variations in c minor (WoO 80). The theme is 8 measures long. Having two or more consecutive variations based on the same idea keeps the piece from sounding too "blocky" (how's that for a technical term...) and feeling like it is stopping after every eight measures.

Thanks, Jim.

Of course, my variation has that traditional length of nineteen measures, just to throw everybody off balance a bit. The repeat sign is really only there to make it a decent length when playing it on its own; when assembled into a suite, it should be sufficient to play it once through, resolving onto the A in the mandolin part and final chord in the guitar part. Around 30 seconds at the intended tempo, that way.

Martin

[JimD]

Of course, my variation has that traditional length of nineteen measures, just to throw everybody off balance a bit.

One of the benefits of working with a theme like this is that we will find it very easy to achieve a varied structure in the variations. The chant melody can be perceived many different meters and phrase lengths. (not to mention different modes, harmonizations etc.) We undoubtedly each hear it slightly differently.

[bratsche]

Well, fooey! I downloaded "ABC Navigator", and I'm darned if I can figure out what to do with it. I fiddled around with it for about 15 minutes, and was able to get absolutely nothing to... do anything, whatsoever. There are no clues on the website, and the "help" files are nonexistent (click on "help" and I get zip, nada...)

At least with NotePad and all its lack of sophistication, I was fairly intuitively able to use it (and I got around the meter limitation by writing my variation all in one time signature). I was hoping to just copy it over to ABC, but I'll probably end up just ditching this useless thing, unless someone points out something very obvious that I could be missing (I'm admitting that's a possibility).

bratsche

[Martin Jonas]

ABC Navigator is a program that can convert abc files to standard notation, and it acts as an input editor for abc files. It will only makes sense if you have some idea of how an abc file works. For the full details, read this first and this second. It may seem like a bit of an information overload, but it's really quite simple when you look at an example of an abc file (such as the one I've posted above).

The format was developed in order to be able to write music in a standard text file (e.g. on this message board). So, it replaces each note with a letter in a fairly intuitive way. The octave starting at middle c is denoted "c", "d" ... "b", the octave below that "C"..."B", the one below that "C,"..."B," and so on. Each tune starts with a few header lines giving information about the entire tune.

So, my variation starts with:

X:1
T:Dies Irae (Mandolin)
C:Martin Jonas
M:6/8
L:1/8
N:Play open strings where possible.
R:
K:Amin

This specifies the title (T of the tune, the composer's name (C, the time signature (M:, in this case 6/8 for the first bar, although I change this several times through the piece), the standard note length (L:, this can be anything, but it makes the file easier if you choose the most prevalent note value in your piece) and the key (K:, in this case Amin).

After this, you can start the piece. My first measure is:

|:cde dcB|

This translates as a repeat sign, then a beam of three 1/8th notes grouped together, a space for a new group, then the second beam of three 1/8th notes, then the bar line. My second measure is:

[M:3/4]c2 Ac Be|

This first changes the time signature to 3/4, then the "c2" is a quarter note (twice the default length for the piece), followed by two groups of two eighths, and a bar line. If you work forward through the abc and compare with the standard notation below in my post, things should fall into place (note that I've added a "[M:6/8]" to measure nine of the abc since generating the standard notation).

In order to write a tune in abc format like this, you don't need any software at all: a text editor will do. However, ABC Navigator makes things a bit easier.

The purpose of ABC Navigator is twofold:

a) If you already have an abc file, you can open it and it will display in both abc format and standard notation, and print in standard notation. There are thousands (probably hundreds of thousand) abc files out on the internet for all sorts of tunes.

b) If you don't already have an abc file, it will act as a (slightly) more sophisticated editor than using a text editor. In the "Abc Tune" menu, click on "New Tune". This brings up a window into which you can type text. The compulsory headers are already there, by default for a tune in 4/4 in the key of D. If you start typing letters for note values in the line following "K:D", they are translated into standard notation in the window below. If what you're typing makes no sense under the definitions of the abc format, it will be highlighted in red. Clicking "Tools" gives you a piano keyboard.

I hope with the above, this program makes a bit more sense. I know it sounds much more complicated than using a fully graphical interface, but it's a fairly universal notation language, not a proprietary format, and surprisingly powerful. Once learned, tunes can be entered rapidly, and easily shared with the world. There is a multi-stave extension to the standard as well, but it's not so widely used.

All of this may be much more than you want to know at this stage. Many commercial programs can import and export abc files, and if you're using one of these, then you can write it in your program and export for publication to abc. The full version of Finale can handle abc files, I think, but I'm not sure about Notepad, which I haven't used before.

If you already have your version in Finale Notepad, and if it turns out it can't export to abc, then translating into abc is probably more hassle than it's worth; if so, I apologise for burdening you with all this useless information and making you try out ABC Navigator.

Martin

[bratsche]

No need to apologize, Martin; it is I who am almost completely ignorant when it comes to notation programs! A choir director friend of mine has Finale, and I would love to, but I can't afford it. I had no idea what "ABC format" even was. I'm not finished with my variation. It's all there, but in rough form in NotePad (because that's what I have), and still needs some tweaking. I'll be pretty busy with a lot on my plate between now and the infernal tax deadline. I don't think I'll have time to become fluent or even conversant in ABC before then! But tweaking the existent file is kind of a relaxing activity I can do when I'm in the mood for a change of pace from the rest of my life (and when I have some spare moments, of course.) The file is in a ".mus" format, for whatever that's worth. I looked in all the pulldowns, and see nothing about importing or exporting anywhere. Maybe there's a way I can send a printout to somebody, if this project gels together in any kind of a hurry....

bratsche

[Jim Garber]

I sometimes use this web site which does a fine job of converting to notation, pdf and even generating a midi file. You have to paste in just one tune at a time tho.

I use barfly on the Mac to create the tunes. It has a split screen with std notation so you can see what you are doing.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I sometimes use this web site which does a fine job of converting to notation, pdf and even generating a midi file. You have to paste in just one tune at a time tho.

For posting tunes on the Cafe, the site I was using produces a higher resolution graphic file. No MIDI of PDF, though, but to make up for it, it is capable of displaying more than one tune per page, as long as they are separated by a blank line in the abc. When checking the site out again today, I was a bit taken aback to see that my tune of yesterday is now displayed there. Not a problem for me, really, but be aware that if you're using this site, you're automatically sharing with the world.

Martin

[OdnamNool]

Hmmm. It seems to me that someone needs to "invent" a simple way to:

1. Click on somethin' to get some score paper up there...

2. Be able to compose on that score paper. For instance, maybe if you hit the number 1 on the staff, it shows up as a quarter note. If you hit the number 2, it shows up as a half note, and so on...

3. It seems to me that there could be symbols on the typewritter that jive with composing music. For instance... you press the / slash key, and that's the key that denotes the end of a measure...

4. Argh. Too hard to explain...

5. At any rate, good luck! I'd like to participate, but definantly lack the computer-techno-know-how to do so...

[Martin Jonas]

Hmmm. #It seems to me that someone needs to "invent" a simple way to:

Someone has. It's called "abc" (see my message four posts ago). Plus, of course, there are any number of commercial music packages that offer a more sophisticated way of entering music, at a price (and usually a loss of compatibility).

This side discussion, of course, has nothing to do with the composing project and lack of know-how shouldn't keep anybody from participating. As already suggested in this thread, a scanned sheet of handwritten music would do just fine.

Martin