Building ITM repertoire

[Bertram Henze]

What is a "planxty"?

Here is an explanation.

[catmandu2]

Many of (Carolan's) songs are designated as "planxties", a word that Carolan apparently invented or popularized to signify a tribute to a merry host. In return for writing songs in honor of wealthy patrons -wiki -

Re - box: Somewhere around here I have a cd "100 tunes for button accordion" which I believe came with notation--if you're inclined. I found CDs like these quite beneficial for learning tunes--as the tunes themselves are kept very short, without much elaboration or variation...aiding acquisition of the tune very simply

And, we must get round to discussing concertina! (anglo)--an instrument which allows us to play countermelodies and contrapuntal figures simultaneously--with the melody in both hands (as opposed to the harmonic limitation of melodeon basses)

Bertram--on playing the melodeon "rhythmically": indeed, acquiring the lilt in box playing is one of the higher pursuits!

[MikeyG]

Here is an explanation.

And in this thread there is another (explanation of "planxty") that might be more complete:

http://thesession.org/discussions/1970

MikeyG

[foldedpath]

Perhaps, as you say f-path, they were merely chops to propel the feet and the custom. And perhaps--among a planxty or love sonnet--a simple dance tempo was inserted (Carolan's planxtys are revered a gravitas today that they perhaps weren't afforded in their day?). Perhaps the dance movements themselves were composed of such delicacy and beauty as to evoke such unintended resonances. But perhaps, also, there was a more organic unity among the elements--tempos, movements, entire pieces, etc. Considering the more "mystical" nature--or at least socially complex role--of music in early society, my inclination is to suspect that there may have been more to the music, in its orginal form, for example. Clearly, there are both dance and "lyric" forms in the music: just how distinct the demarcation--and how it evolved--I wonder how much cross-pollination, etc

There may indeed have been cross-pollination, but I think the lines are (and were) fairly distinct between the music meant for solo, expressive performance like Piobaireachd/Ceòl Mòr for the pipes, and the music of the Cláirseach (harp) tradition, vs. the music meant for dancing out in the countryside in someone's kitchen or barn. And it's the latter that you'll hear in sessions, aside from maybe one performance of an Air by a singer or solo fiddler, with the rest of the group sitting quietly with their instruments in their laps.

This may be the "sacred vs. profane" distinction you were referring to? Although I'd call it more a difference between solo performance intended for the court or other formal occasions, vs. informal music played for dancing by amateur musicians, which later evolved into gathering at the local pub to play the tunes.

Emotional expression ("telling a story") is far easier at the slower and un-metered tempos of an Air or Ceòl Mòr piece. It's easy to hear in that Port Na Bpucai clip by Tony MacMahon. But when you're playing a jig or reel at full speed, the avenue of expression is primarily rhythmic. The pulse must be steady and the notes are flying by quickly. One might argue that "ornaments" constitute expression, but I wonder if they're mainly just a holdover from the mechanical limitations of early un-stopped pipe music, carried over for traditional reasons so the music "sounds Irish." This is mentioned in the article Jim linked to, above, and I've also read that theory in a flute instruction book by Grey Larsen. If it's an expression of anything, it's about authenticity... yep, this sounds like Irish music!

As an aside, I never completely understood how a cut worked, until I started playing a little (very little, and still learning) Irish flute. Then I realized... ah ha! That's how you play two consecutive notes at the same pitch with an unvarying air flow. Makes perfect sense, as do the related techniques of taps, rolls, etc. That fed back into how I play mandolin, although the simulation is limited to a pull-off, which lacks the same percussive quality of a cut on the fiddle, flute, or pipes.

Realizing that cuts, taps, and rolls probably evolved from the consecutive same-pitch note problem was also a great help in figuring out where to add a treble ornament when playing mandolin. When I hear a note repeated in a tune, that's often a good opportunity for a treble ornament, if it doesn't break the flow of the tune.

[catmandu2]

Yes I think that seems plausible--the ornaments being a mechanism to impart rhythmic articulation. My harp study--learning a whole new series of techniques--clearly reveals this to me. In box playing, these ornaments are particularly essential--as the box lacks these natural percussive elements--so natural on the other instruments..

And yes--playing the flute is very instructive, beyond just flute-playing. All study is beneficial, of course, but I always say--one should at least study a wind instrument and/or fiddle--which tend to impart great insights for all things musical

[Bertram Henze]

And in this thread there is another (explanation of "planxty") that might be more complete:

http://thesession.org/discussions/1970

MikeyG

After reading that, I am certain that O'Carolan planted this word on us for the sole purpose of ROFLHAO...
I'll say Planxty is an anglicized translation of Whackfolalderah.

[catmandu2]

This may be the "sacred vs. profane" distinction you were referring to? Although I'd call it more a difference between solo performance intended for the court or other formal occasions, vs. informal music played for dancing by amateur musicians, which later evolved into gathering at the local pub to play the tunes.

Yes that's pretty much what I mean.

I always wished I'd danced more. I have zero experience with formal dancing. I'm pretty compelled by dance--all the Mediterranean, Arabic, Asian, African...ballet too

[Beanzy]

Although the meaning of planxty and the surname is actually lost I always fancied it meant "plán sa tí" or "a plague on the house"

(how long before that gets listed as historical fact somewhere else on the internet?)

As for the dance, there were many styles of dance in vogue and being developed in the period. Don't forget that in the case of O'Carolan you're looking at a composer who was very much influenced by the Italian composers such as Vivaldi and Corelli (and apparently was quite despised by his fellow harpers for that), so you need to see the tunes on the page as a framework then see what dance styles suggest themselves. Even in modern ceilidh dancing we have the vestiges of the formal steps and moves of those old baroque dances albeit through a modern form.

The other thing to work hard with on the mandolin is to get the phrasing for the push and draw or tension/release of these tunes. Something much easier with a bow or a bellows to give the physical feedback. On mandolin we really have to work out our own way of leaning into the tunes then laying back.

[catmandu2]

Yes I'm wondering about the occurrence of commonalities among dance forms--looking at popular forms of both court dance and country dance (late medieval-early renaissance). Many recognizable forms occur in Carolan's music, for example. In the case of earlier music--such as the ap Huw MS--it's difficult to discern, exactly, as the manuscript is still being interpreted, and much we have no written record altogether

[DougC]

Yes I think that seems plausible--the ornaments being a mechanism to impart rhythmic articulation. My harp study--learning a whole new series of techniques--clearly reveals this to me. In box playing, these ornaments are particularly essential--as the box lacks these natural percussive elements--so natural on the other instruments..

And yes--playing the flute is very instructive, beyond just flute-playing. All study is beneficial, of course, but I always say--one should at least study a wind instrument and/or fiddle--which tend to impart great insights for all things musical

I've played a bit of flute and can say that it is a whole different experience than violin or mandolin. You don't need to play the other instruments to get this understanding, I believe. One can play in unison and as much as possible, play every nuance of articulation and phrasing with a bagpipe, for example.

That kind of listening really gets to an understanding of the music. BTW I used to discuss this online with Phillip Varlet back in the 1990's.

I also think one can determine, based on this kind of listening / playing what instrument was used to compose the tune. It's an interesting notion at any rate.

[catmandu2]

I've played a bit of flute and can say that it is a whole different experience than violin or mandolin. You don't need to play the other instruments to get this understanding, I believe. One can play in unison and as much as possible, play every nuance of articulation and phrasing with a bagpipe, for example.

That kind of listening really gets to an understanding of the music. BTW I used to discuss this online with Phillip Varlet back in the 1990's.

Yes, completely agree. I've played a variety of woodwinds since youth; the simple wood flute is all I'm blowing on now (and occ a whistle).

I also think one can determine, based on this kind of listening / playing what instrument was used to compose the tune. It's an interesting notion at any rate.

Wrt this, I listened to harp music (specifically--Gaelic harp and the lot) some 20+ years being inescapably captivated and wanting to play, and for many reasons put it off for decades. Long story short: after playing harp tunes on about half-a-dozen other instruments--finally getting to play harp tunes on a harp was a confirmatory experience, completely (a bit like playing fiddle tunes on a fiddle...)

[fatt-dad]

I called one of the dudes that I see at local old-time jam and asked if he wanted to get together during the week and work on tunes. That was a year and a half ago, meeting every other week. We are doing all sorts of stuff (Classical, old-time) including Irish music. I have no idea what they play at the local ITM jams, but I'm having a blast, just now practicing a few O'Carolan tunes. I'm also learning, "The Morning Dew." Just fun duets of any ilk, 'cause I got a dude to work them up with!

f-d

[catmandu2]

The other thing to work hard with on the mandolin is to get the phrasing for the push and draw or tension/release of these tunes. Something much easier with a bow or a bellows to give the physical feedback. On mandolin we really have to work out our own way of leaning into the tunes then laying back.

Yes. Mandolin is a stiff little critter--generally (comparatively) more challenging to cull dynamics...always love when it breathes. One of my problems--after listening to a lot of dense art/jazz music--I often like lots of space and breath in music...Jon Christensen/Paul Motian my new favorite drummers...so the mandolin often challenges me. Long nails on my frkn left hand don't help me...

PS-sorry for yakking up your thread so much Jim.

[foldedpath]

I also think one can determine, based on this kind of listening / playing what instrument was used to compose the tune. It's an interesting notion at any rate.

It's not only interesting detective work, it helps in figuring out how to approach the tune.

I'm certainly no expert in this music, since I came to it late in life as a player (although I've listened to it for much longer). I wasn't raised in the tradition. But if you spend enough time listening to the music, taking workshops with players who were raised in it, etc... you can start to pick up hints of the original composer's instrument.

Some of it is fairly obvious, like "modern" (20th-21st Century) Contra Dance tunes and tunes by modern Irish repertoire composers like Paddy Fahey, Sean Ryan and Liz Carroll that make extensive use of the G string on a fiddle, where whistle, flute, and pipes can't go. That's surely a hint that the composer was a fiddler, and it drives some of us keyless Irish flute players and whistlers nuts because we can't play the tune without "folding" the low notes up an octave.

Likewise, tunes in G Dorian are most likely fiddler-composed, and relatively recent in the tradition (but there are exceptions).

A tune that's in A mixolydian and has a small range of notes is probably a pipe tune, possibly transposed from the Highland pipes to the more session friendly smallpipes and related "indoor" pipes.

My Significant Other is a fiddler with an interest in Scottish and Cape Breton music, and when she reads off a new tune from sheet music, I'm often saying "Okay, that's a pipe tune, isn't it?" Because it's in A Mix and it doesn't really go anywhere.


Okay, that's an exaggeration. I love some pipe tunes, but I'm still developing an ear for appreciating the repertoire. Maybe you have to actually be a piper to get that deep into it. Tons of expression available, but such a small range of notes...

And then you have the harp stuff like O'Carolan, which you can tell wasn't composed on fiddle because some of the tunes (in modern transcription) go past the B note on the E string, which puts fiddlers out of first position, and is an unusual (for ITM) stretch on flute and whistle.

It's all great music, but sometimes the fingerprint of the composer's instrument is obvious. And more often, not that obvious!

[Jim Garber]

PS-sorry for yakking up your thread so much Jim.

Frankly, I find it all interesting and have no problem when thread get derailed in the right direction. Keep up the good work. it is all relevant.

[Jim Nollman]

My first inspiration for Irish tunes was also Kevin Burke. For some unclear reason, both his choice of tunes, and the way he bowed, seemed doable by an intermediate mandolin player. I still play a number of tunes I got from those old recordings. Walsh's Horn Pipe is one I played last night.

Although it's sometimes possible for me to figure out if a tune is Irish simply by listening to it sometimes, any hope for accuracy seems downright impossible, and also a bit political. I have been playing Swinging on a Gate for years now, and always believed it was a New England contra dance original, and fairly modern as well. recently some one told me it was 100% Irish and very old. I suspect there are hundreds of such tunes that get claimed by more than one tradition as their "official" origin.

One recent oddity I have acquired for playing dances. I almost always reach for my F5 when playing a set of Irish jigs. It has to do with the fact that nearly every beat has a note. At dance speed, that can become a messy blur when played with an oval hole that has big sustain beaming right back to my own ear. The dry woodiness of an F5 focused a few feet in front of me simply sounds clearer at speed.

Sets of 3 tunes seems to be the established way of playing both Old Time and Irish for dances. Our fiddle player usually puts the tunes together, and has a great ear for matches that push each other. Lately we've been playing the chestnuts, Kesh to Morrison's to Moon and Seven Stars as a set. The transitions really jump. She also favors the approach of joining tunes that go from low to high based on the string arrangement. Many sets we play start with a G tune, then a D, then an A. But it's not a hard and fast rule. Lately I've been toying with Salvation (F) — but is that Irish or New England? — into High Up Tug (F: 100% Old Time) to Garfield's Hornpipe (Bb) The name sounds American, and the phrasing sounds like Scott Joplin.

[Eddie Sheehy]

wrong topic

[catmandu2]

I think you mean "The Little Beggarman (aka Ould Johnny Doo)"? That and the Redhaired Boy are both Reels... just at a different pace so you can sing the words...

I found RHB sounded much like "Down in the Coal Mine" (although I heard it sung with accordion/concertina...)

[catmandu2]

... I'm still developing an ear for appreciating the repertoire. Maybe you have to actually be a piper to get that deep into it. Tons of expression available, but such a small range of notes...

I find the pipes taking me back, and enjoy the sparseness. I've been into the solo instrument thing most of my life--and enjoy the sound of the solo instrument tremendously (why I got into harps, accordians, etc). The free-reed before the surge of the semitone box (B/C, C/C#, etc.) was the 10-button, single-row melodeon--which requires some deftness to exploit its smaller range--which would often be deployed solo, or song accompaniment. The anglo concertina is another old school instrument often deployed solo.. Playing instruments in such a style--IME, we definitely tend to get into meditative, trance-like moods...the sparseness lends to its appeal





(not me there--I learned this tune yesterday)

You know, it occurs to me now--wrt "ornaments as rhythmic device"...playing instruments solo--and some pretty sparse ones at that--would be nowhere without grace notes to embellish melody..

[catmandu2]

Speaking of pipes (well, we were speaking of them)...this beautiful vid exemplifies why they're probably king of them all



This film on regional styles is excellent for a number of things: one--what Caoimhin Raghallaigh is saying at about 23:00" (paraphrasing) -- "we can't really pass-on music (as was the tradition)--because there's too much around us, etc.--so we need to raise our level of understanding, and be aware of our response (how we respond to influences, etc)"...speaks to a number of levels of consideration...(on a fascinating subject)

[Marty Jacobson]

Here is an explanation.

Interesting.. I had read several years ago that a "planxty" was usually written to honor an individual. For example, "Planxty George Brabazon", "Planxty Burke", "Planxty Drew", "Planxty Bunting". I did not know that it mostly described the style or character of the tune.

[catmandu2]

Interesting.. I had read several years ago that a "planxty" was usually written to honor an individual. For example, "Planxty George Brabazon", "Planxty Burke", "Planxty Drew", "Planxty Bunting". I did not know that it mostly described the style or character of the tune.

I don't think that particular definition gives us much of an etiological perspective

[Connor]

What a fun thread! I'll respond to some of Jim's original comments about playing mandolin in Irish Traditional music sessions.

Learning new music
I have been playing mandolin in local Irish sessions for the last 8-10 years. Being a reader and a lousy ear learner (I've been derisively called "paper trained"), I picked up a session book: Phil Rubenzer's Midwest Session Book, and waded in. I've since collected many more books. The sessions I attend have slowly evolved to the point that about half of the musicians are readers. I'm lucky enough to be a good sight reader - decades of playing second violin and church musician. As long as I could get the title, find the tune in a book, and they didn't start it too fast, I usually could stagger along. Slowly I got to the point where I knew tunes well enough that the notes served as a hint now and then. Now, I can play many tunes without the music, but I'm still lost sometimes if I don't have music to peek at. On the other hand, the ear players in our session sometimes rely on those of us who read music to teach new tunes and help start the vaguely remembered tune when nobody can quite remember the opening phrase.

Ornamentation
With fast tunes I find that on the mandolin I use a repeated triplet where a more elaborate ornament is played on a fiddle and it works OK. I use hammer-ons and pull-offs a lot, too. Or, I just leave the ornament to the instruments that can do it easily. I find when I'm playing the octave mandolin I sometimes even just hint at the melody, sort of a modified bass line or counter melody, maybe with a chord or two here and there.

Variations on tunes
I don't have a really broad range of experience with different sessions, but from the variety of people who flow through our local sessions, there are PLENTY of variations to tunes that have evolved. My "favorite" is Whiskey Before Breakfast. Whenever we play it there are at least three or four different versions of the A section. We sort of settle into a groove in the B section, but the A section is cacophony (my typo was cacaphony - a pretty good description - sounds like sh!t). It usually is OK, other than when some of the group know the tune with three sections and the rest with only two.

Playing music fast
OK, from time to time I'm guilty of pushing the tempo. However, some of my session buddies are notorious for it. Honest, I try to keep to a reasonable tempo, but there's something contagious about a rip-roaring reel. However, playing so fast that all the players end up skipping or slopping past many of the notes and phrases isn't all that fun. When we get to going too fast the reasonable players will just stop and watch the speedy ones flail about (I have noticed that they aren't playing a lot of the notes, something covered up by the group). Every now and then I do try a reel at a slow tempo, more like an air. Sometimes they are really quite delightful that way. One compromise that we have come up with is that we will play a tune at a reasonable pace for the learners and then kick it up for the speed demons.

[Fretless]

Speaking of pipes (well, we were speaking of them)...this beautiful vid exemplifies why they're probably king of them all



This film on regional styles is excellent for a number of things: one--what Caoimhin Raghallaigh is saying at about 23:00" (paraphrasing) -- "we can't really pass-on music (as was the tradition)--because there's too much around us, etc.--so we need to raise our level of understanding, and be aware of our response (how we respond to influences, etc)"...speaks to a number of levels of consideration...(on a fascinating subject)

Oooh, thanks for both of these! I'm a sucker for pipes. The second tune in the first video (starts at 1:20) is one of my all time favorites - The Ewie With the Crooked Horn. I've heard that it refers to a whisky still with the crooked horn being the distilling tube. Dunno for sure but it makes a good story.

[grandomando]

Hello all,

Thought I would throw in my 2 cents on the subject of repertoire building.

If you are switching over, or rather, explanding your horizons from OT to ITM, I think you're in for a treat (I'm doing the opposite, and its very refreshing). There are some nice time signatures and the basic lilt is definitely different. Not to mention some of the most beautiful tunes!

If you want to become a real session beast, I'll say get to know some influential recordings from the 60's and 70's. If you play those sets (yes, the whole sets) people world over will recognise you are referencing older masters, and immediately think you're in the know about the genre. And of course you would be at that point!

This is valuable regardless of the sets that are played regularly in your session. Our home session at least definitely allows freedom for every player to construct sets on the fly. And when you travel, Bothy (etc) sets are a reliable option when you are requested to lead a set; they are like a secret handshake.

Listen to the sets on repeat for several days, or until you can hum along. Then figure out them on the fingerboard. Use dots if need be -- you already know what it's supposed to sound like.

It helps if you get obsessed by a tune

Btw, I find bluegrass incredibly difficult, since the players embellish the tunes so much. Like OT, ITM in a session context is much more "what you hear is what you need to learn", if you know what I mean. I'm trying to make the leap from ITM to OT to BG, and let me tell you, it isn't easy!