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Thread: Building ITM repertoire

  1. #1
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Building ITM repertoire

    I will be celebrating my 4th decade of playing fiddle and mandolin this month. I know -- I should be a much better player by now, but I figure I have a few more years left to work on it.

    I actually started learning Irish music when I first started and switched over to old time and other genres after a few years. I always loved Irish but didn't have the chops back then and figured I had to choose in order to become a moderately decent player.

    A few months ago I started attending some Irish sessions near me lead by an excellent fiddler, Brian Conway. I have been to a bunch of those sessions. The upside is that the playing is excellent overall -- some seriously wonderful players, both young and old. The hard part is that the ITM tradition is to play medleys of tunes with each tune repeated only 2 or 3 times so it does not allow much time to learn on the fly. At the session I attend the tempi are rather reasonable -- I have heard that at other sessions the tunes are played at breakneck speed.

    At old time sessions I lead or attend we almost never play medleys and end up playing the tunes for about 10 minutes straight with many repetitions. Even at std speed this allows even an intermediate player to pick up the tunes. This is the tradition of most OT sessions i have attended.

    In any case, I am a little overwhelmed but also energized by the prospect of learning a whole new repertoire of tunes with different nuances and rhythms (jigs and slip jigs, for instance).

    I try to get the tune names as often as I can at the sessions so I do have a list to work from for those. I have downloaded a bunch of those tunes from thesession.org but there are usually a bunch of versions and I can never tell which are the good ones.

    I also have quite a few recordings including classic ones from yhears ago so can learn by ear from some of them as well as from youtube videos.

    I did get a DVD set of Kevin Burke's (Homespun) which I learned a few tunes off of as well as some tunes I learned from Matt Cranitch's book. I plan to take some lessons with Brian Conway.

    I also found an excellent free book online from the Harp of Tara Kingston, Ontario. Scroll down to the Download section of the page. You can download the whole book or parts of it. One part is the repertoire for slow sessions. The book includes some excellent background info for the tunes and the players of them. Having read thru quite a few tunes in the book, most are pretty presentable versions so I will prob use that as one of my main printed sources of tunes. I think many of the tunes are accurately transcribed as well.

    There are a few slow ITM sessions somewhat near me (1 hour's drive) so I may try those out. I am a firm believer in immersing in a genre -- like learning a language, it works best for me.

    I guess it is more my impatience to actually play this music, but also presented with a mass of tunes to learn and catch up on. On a positive note I notice that tunes I have in my head I can easily figure out on mandolin or fiddle.

    Anyway, any other suggestions for repertoire building?
    Jim

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    ...The hard part is that the ITM tradition is to play medleys of tunes with each tune repeated only 2 or 3 times so it does not allow much time to learn on the fly.
    You're supposed to practise at home
    Players who are "quick to lift a tune" are very few and far between, nothing to shoot for in the beginning. This ability may come when you already play, say, 200 tunes - the high ratio of re-used phrases in Irish tunes will then give you a vague feeling of familiarity even with a completely unknown one. But until then, it's homework chores.

    I recommend concentrating on really getting down one set of tunes at a time as played in your local session, rather than diluting resources over too many (there is a fiddler in our sessions who hardly can play one solid tune through and lead it, but he turns up every month with ten new ones he also cannot play; stubbornly he starts playing them anyway, hoping the others will pick up in time before he falls apart).

    It's a long way, but it's also a scenic route.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    the comhaltas foin seisiun books are a good place to check out, too, since they come with CDs and a lot of their sets are some of the standards that other people play as sets. Interestingly enough, the Coleman (or Tarbolton) set -- the Tarbolton, Longford Collector and Sailor's Bonnet -- are pretty much played as is at any session I've attended. There was even a bumper sticker or T-shirt (or rumors of them) stating "Free the Tarbolton Three!" because they are usually kept as a set and that bothers some players.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Thanks, Bertram. I learned so many OT tunes over the years -- but that was over years. I am doing, more or less, what you say and, no, I don't expect to pick up all the tunes by osmosis. I think working on a set of tunes at a time is a good way. And practicing (or practising) at home is what I am doing.

    I will certainly remember this: "It's a long way, but it's also a scenic route." A good mottoo, indeed!!
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Jun-19-2014 at 11:01am.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Thanks, Randi. Yes, those books look good too, tho too many books spoil the musician -- I have learned that having accumulated a vast library of choro books -- yet another repertoire to tackle when I grow up!

    Also, with the exception of Tarbolton, I guess the sets are variable depending on the session you attend. Except for the jig marathon roundrobin they seem to play mostly two tune sets at Brian's sessions with an occasional three-tune set thrown in when someone decide they want to add a tune.
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Hi Jim,

    One fun way to build repertoire for ITM would be to attend this summer's Catskills Irish Arts Week, July 13-19, in East Durham, NY. http://catskillsirishartsweek.com/ Accordion master Jimmy Keane will be teaching a class specifically on building tune repertoire. Here's the class description:

    Accordionist Jimmy Keane, a six time All-Ireland champion, composer, and music collector will teach a tune intensive class open to all melody capable instruments. Students should have a solid rudimentary understanding of their respective instruments and a basic knowledge of traditional Irish tunes and its many forms (jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc). The classes will be taught by ear so please bring a recording device. Don't worry -- students who have never learned by ear, were playing by ear after the first few tunes. The tunes will be played by Jimmy for students to record for future reference and practice, first at a regular pace then slowed down. Each tune will then be broken down in class and taught by ear in a phrase-by-phrase manner. The tunes taught will range from some of Jimmy’s favorites, to unusual settings of more common tunes, to newly composed tunes within the traditional idiom. The overall aim is building repertoire (and having an enjoyable time during the learning experience)!

    I'll be attending the class with my mandolin and tenor banjo with the same goal in mind--to expand my tune repertoire. Next year will mark the centennial of my grandfather serving as the grand marshal of the St. Patrick's Day Parade in New York City. He was a flute player from Co, Roscommon. I'm organizing a new marching contingent for next year's parade, which will be comprised of descendants of former grand marshals from past parades. After the parade we'll host a party, which will involve music and a session etc.

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Quote Originally Posted by Randi Gormley View Post
    "Free the Tarbolton Three!"
    I used to play a "customized" pair of Tarbolton and Mulqueens before I learned the other two - the other players always looked puzzled but followed.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Registered User zoukboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Jim:

    I would suggest you ask permission to record your session and/or ask one or two of the stalwarts to record a few dozen tunes for you. Then listen over and over, one tune (or set, if this session plays particular sets, not all of them do) at a time until you can sing the melody along with the recording.

    At that point you'll have the tune in your head and should be able to play it. Also, you might consider at the time transcribing what you have learned in order to archive it. Writing it down after learning it aurally is a good way to complete the learning circle. Then you'll be well equipped to start the work of finding your own approach to the tune working from the basis of your session's setting.

    If you are new to Irish fiddling I would definitely get some lessons from Brian - he can demystify the bowing. I have worked with several fiddle/mando players who have found it helpful to learn the tune first on the mando and then approach the tune on the fiddle already knowing where all the notes are.

    I would suggest you avoid relying on any printed sources for learning session repertoire. If you were hours away from any decent sessions it might be different but since you are attending a great session already I think you would do well to let those musicians be your source.

    Good luck!

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    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    It must be the wisdom of elders or something similar that led them to discover it, but I find sets of tunes work really well in threes.
    I've a rubbish memory but seem to be able to learn a set of tunes almost as easily as a single tune. It's really strange how that happens. It seems to me like it's something to do with our natural inclination to work with beginning-middle-end in stories or something like that. Anyway the bonus is if I learn a set I then can chop it up and extract the tunes fairly easily. If I learn a tune it just sits there on its own with no context to fit it in and I tend to forget I know the thing and it falls out of use.

    Brains are weird things..... well mine is.
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    Registered User neil argonaut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    I'd tend to back up what Roger said about recording the session if folk allow it (which I'm sure they will), as that way you can get learning the tunes that they play - it can vary so much from session to session (and from week to week!); If after learning plenty of these you find yourself wanting to visit other sessions, one way to find out what tunes it is likely people will know is to go to the session.org, click on tunes and then popular tunes, and you will have them all listed in popularity, from 1 (drowsy maggie) to 12 272! (the election jig) , so you can work towards learning the top 10, then the top 100, and more or less all of these 100 if you played in a session at least someone will probably know it (just watch out, but, depending on the session, some of these might be deemed too popular or overplayed to play);

    However, I wouldn't recommend learnign from the dots on the session unless you need to - i normally just use it to get the tuine name and some comments on it, then seek out recordings, or good versions on youtube, or such;

    good luck

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Thanks, all, for the sage advice!

    I was primarily a ear learner and do follow the singing suggestions. I tend to have tunes floating around in my inner ear/brain all day anyway -- the older Pipe on the Hob at this very moment. After playing classical mandolin for a number of years my reading has improved considerably so I can easily use that as resource as well. I may very well try to record the session but it is usually pretty noisy with the bar crowd talking, laughing etc. Brian did run a short-lived session right in my town which did get me going. I should have recorded those tunes since it was pretty quiet in that bar -- it was a Sunday afternoon.

    Anyway... there is a ITM slow session about and hour or so drive from me which I want to attend tonight. It sounds like a good group of players getting together to work on repertoire. I did a bunch of driving last night but might have the energy to do it again tonight for a good reason.
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    Registered User xiledscot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Hello Jim

    I think we are of similar vintage,and as such,I have complete sympathy for the task,that you have set yourself.
    Tunes come and Tunes go,some I have played regularly for thirty odd years and some are forgotten,until something sparks the old grey matter in the memory bank,and then the whole learning process starts again. As you say "my impatience to actually play this music, but also presented with a mass of tunes to learn and catch up on"
    I found that I had to be very selective and learn/relearn one or two at a time .
    I now have a list of 30 -40 sets of tunes (two or three in each set) that I play regularly.
    Over time some are replaced and so it goes on.
    I have to say that playing two or three tunes in a set is not as easy as it sounds.Finding the right mix is not easy and I have heard some awful tune selections.
    I rarely attend large sessions.I find that I get very little from them.Five or six players of reasonable ability is sufficient,and for me,much more rewarding.
    There is another issue here.Trying to play Mandolin,Fiddle and Tenor Banjo to all of the tunes.Not enough hours in one day.
    In any case.........good luck!
    D MAC S

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Thanks, xiledscot...

    I do find some of the overlapping tunes with the old time repertoire: two I am working on are Kitty's Wedding (Belle of Lexington) and Lord MacDonald's (Leather Britches). The skeletal versions of these tunes are similar but the Irish versions are, well, more Irish with different approached to the notes and, of course, ornamentation.

    So there are those tunes plus ones I do remember from decades ago when I listened to early Chieftains, Na Fili, Planxty, De Danaan and the Bothy Band (among others).

    I do find, tho, that switching between fiddle and mandolin is not so bad. In fact, it sort of helps me to learn left hand stuff on the mandolin since my right is not as distracted by bowing strategies. OTOH the ornamentation is more limited on the mandolin -- very hard to do rolls without that sustain.
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Now you've done it. I had completely forgotten about Kitty's Wedding.
    I think that a lot of music (even modern classical) have their roots in Scottish/Irish.
    I enjoy mixing Genre. eg Silver Spear followed by Squirrel Hunters,or The Butterfly followed by Teddy Bears Picnic.

    Nothing wrong with "early Chieftains, Na Fili, Planxty, De Danaan and the Bothy Band (among others). " in fact I prefer some of the older versions.

    and........of course you are quite correct.It is extremely difficult to replicate rolls and double stops,but then,I suppose that's where the improvisation comes in.
    Leather Briches............hmmmm..........now that would sound good with.........
    D MAC S

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Quote Originally Posted by xiledscot View Post
    Now you've done it. I had completely forgotten about Kitty's Wedding.
    I think that a lot of music (even modern classical) have their roots in Scottish/Irish.
    I enjoy mixing Genre. eg Silver Spear followed by Squirrel Hunters,or The Butterfly followed by Teddy Bears Picnic.
    At our local Scottish/Cape Breton/Irish session, my S.O. and I have introduced the idea of following The Jolly Beggarman (hornpipe) with Red Haired Boy (Americana reel) at a brisk Bluegrassy pace. Same tune, just the migrated version. The notes between versions are a little different here and there, but they're consonant so it doesn't matter. The two pipers at the session know the hornpipe version, and they're getting a kick out of playing it faster as a reel.

    Gotta be careful about this though, unless everyone is on board. Some sessions can be pretty rigid (and necessarily so) about sticking with the genre the players are interested in.

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    Registered User mikeyes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    I think you have already found the best way to develop a set of Irish tunes, lessons from Brian Conway (one of the best there is), and attendance at a good session. In the beginning you will be listening and observing, but after a while you will develop a feel for the music and a get a lot of tunes following the advice above. Enjoy the journey!

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    I would never introduce "foreign" tunes at an established ITM session. I might as well bring an electric guitar and play some Hendrix lick on volume 11.

    Of course, I lead a monthly OT session and no one has a problem with playing other tunes or odd versions of whatever. Still... I would not introduce any Hendrix there...

    I figure I am in the right realm and it is very lucky to have Brian's session in proximity -- he told me that it has been going on weekly for 16 years. I really do need to take advantage of his expertise and hope to do some soon.

    As far as a feel for the music, I am immersing myself, listening to a bunch in my car and inserting it in my brain (see above).
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    Registered User DougC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Repeating tunes as you play along is a very solid technique. I played along with the computer and software called abc2win and learned that the computer always has a solid tempo and pitch and it has absolute patience. Then, or before that I got the name of the tune that inspired me, either at the sessiun or on a recording and listened closely to hear the lilt or placement of ornaments. I found favorite musicians who I wanted to emulate. And if I was really inspired, I slowed the recording down and learned every little sound that the player made. Then when I was uncertain how something was done, I'd ask a really good player at the session or a well known teacher like Brian to give me the scoop. I did not learn tons of tunes right away. There is pressure to have a huge amount of tunes in your head. But I did not screw up at sessiuns either. I'm sure you know this but I think it is important to put it out there. I also found myself asking often, "What makes this sound so Irish? and not Old Time, or bluegrass or pop music, or jazzy". Now I ask myself how can I improvise in the Irish way with real style. It is a deep well and the deeper I go the more I appreciate great players.

    Another real asset that you have is in having a 'good ear'. If you are able to pick up something fairly quickly, or even on the fly, the better you can 'fake it' until the rest of the details follow.

    I have been a real good faker for years and I'm surprised that I have done things that are so methodical. But having a good memory and a good ear and solid rhythm and pitch go a heck of a long way in any style. You can rely on thoes skills. You have them already.

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    Registered User Colin Lindsay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Quote Originally Posted by DougC View Post
    Repeating tunes as you play along is a very solid technique.

    ...and listened closely to hear the lilt or placement of ornaments. I found favorite musicians who I wanted to emulate. And if I was really inspired, I slowed the recording down and learned every little sound that the player made.
    In my young day (ahem!) I learned from LP records… again and again and again, playing along until I had the tune. After all, the record didn’t criticise or complain.
    As for every little sound the player made... a lot of my early favourites have the lilts and ornaments that the piper Liam O’Flynn put in, or that Alec Finn played. It’s probably strange to have piping lilts in a tune played on mandola or guitar… but that’s the way I did it.
    Once I got more confident, and knew the tune inside out, I then felt I could play it and enjoy it, and this is where my own little lilts and variations came in.
    "Danger! Do Not Touch!" must be one of the scariest things to read in Braille....

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    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Footerin'About View Post
    As for every little sound the player made... a lot of my early favourites have the lilts and ornaments that the piper Liam O’Flynn put in, or that Alec Finn played. It’s probably strange to have piping lilts in a tune played on mandola or guitar… but that’s the way I did it.
    Once I got more confident, and knew the tune inside out, I then felt I could play it and enjoy it, and this is where my own little lilts and variations came in.
    In the beginning, I used to hear the recorded tune in my head while I played along with that and was quite happy with it. Later, I found out that others can't hear what's in my head and started to invent my own ornaments and whatever was neccessary to exploit the strength of my instrument and get up to speed and volume, arriving on a style completely different from (but still compatible with) what other players do.
    the world is better off without bad ideas, good ideas are better off without the world

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    Registered User Nick Gellie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Thanks Jim for raising this. This would have to be one of the best threads I have read for a long time. Thanks all who have contributed. For me, I pick and chose what I play in ITM. Some tunes just stand out on the mandolin, others don't. I too like to learn tunes in sets but sometimes these sets don't match up the sets made in sessions - it depends who is leading.
    Nic Gellie

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    I went to an ITM slow jam last night and it was a nice way to check some progress. I played a few of the tunes I was working on and there was no problem since it was pretty much a learning session. I wrote down the names of the tunes we played and now I can go back and learn some of them. A long drive so I am not sure how often I can go but worth the trip at least for this time.

    it is really great to play these tunes with folks for more than a couple of times each and at a lower than moderate learning tempo. We did not play dreadfully slow but at a nice pace.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Jun-25-2014 at 9:59am.
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Quote Originally Posted by Footerin'About View Post
    ... a lot of my early favourites have the lilts and ornaments that the piper Liam O’Flynn put in, or that Alec Finn played. It’s probably strange to have piping lilts in a tune played on mandola or guitar…
    Some say to listen to the pipers and the flutes. I understood why--when I began to listen to them myself. The natural articulation of wind instruments...the voice...is what brings us here. Seems we go back and back, to "understand" the music. So there is a lot that can be uttered about why this is so, and this and that--someone else will be able to say it better than me, as I'll rhapsodize and technicalize the world of possibilities to no end

    Quote Originally Posted by zoukboy View Post
    ... listen over and over, one tune (or set, if this session plays particular sets, not all of them do) at a time until you can sing the melody along with the recording.

    At that point you'll have the tune in your head and should be able to play it.
    I'm with Roger and all else who mentioned: listen to the tune over and over--singing it bit by bit til you eventually can go all the way through... Whatever instrument you play--it will come out--if you're singing it over and over all day... can't not. Anyway, this is my experience

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    I certainly understand listening to pipers for phrasing but I find that it is very difficult to imitate some of the ornaments from wind instruments or even from fiddle on the mandolin. Trebles and cuts work fine. Rolls are more difficult unless you either have a super-sustaining instrument or else can super-quickly pick each note.

    I am currently playing this stuff on both mandolin and fiddle and each has its difficulties tho I find I can play more tunes at a faster tempo on the mandolin.
    Jim

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  32. #25

    Default Re: Building ITM repertoire

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I certainly understand listening to pipers for phrasing but I find that it is very difficult to imitate some of the ornaments from wind instruments or even from fiddle on the mandolin. Trebles and cuts work fine. Rolls are more difficult unless you either have a super-sustaining instrument or else can super-quickly pick each note.
    Yep, it's done differently on each. On harp--these techniques are completely different than on any of the other strings, for example: ornamentation is largely dictated by the technical capacities of the instrument (which, very generally speaking, is why a mandolin and a harp are "percussion" instruments, and winds and strings--"melody" instruments, etc.). Phrasing is what I'm getting at--as the primary element, while ornamentation skirts along the edges, if you will. A mandolin tends to allow us to play fast, but may be quite challenging to emulate the voice, etc. "Emulation" may, or may not, involve "imitation," precisely.
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jun-26-2014 at 5:59pm.

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