Bluegrass picking up tempo

[Rex Hart]

While listening to a playback of a track our band recorded yesterday,I noticed that the song had picked up in tempo from start to finish. the track was fairly fast anyway. The song seemed to surge forward during the instrumental breaks. My question is this.....Is it natural for this to happen or should I be more concerned with keeping a strict tempo. I know we are always encouraging our bass player to play on the front side of the beat. I also know I would rather have it pick up tempo than lose tempo. Any thoughts on this? Is this normal? Do top notch acts do this also? So many questions, so little time

[John Ritchhart]

Rex I think it is a natural tendency in bluegrass that can get out of hand if you don't control it. I have a tendency to speed up just playing by myself. It takes a really tight band to speed up on purpose and stay together. Usually things start to get loose and muddy sounding. One trick we use on Cherokee Shuffle for example is to play two breaks at a medium pace and then pause a second and then really bust the last break at high tempo. We practiced that tempo change enough to keep it together.

[Marc Ferry]

Yes, this is normal. It's easy to get carried away in a bluegrass tune and speed up too much. What I'd recommend is emphasizing the importance of listening to your backup and feeling the beat while soloing. This should help.

Also, there's an app for iOS and Android called LiveBPM that tracks the tempo of a group playing a song, so you can see if you're speeding up or slowing down. I've seen multiple people use it at jams. This could be helpful too.

[Rush Burkhardt]

Hey, Rex! Good that you've observed the up-tick in your tempo; many bands don't! Unless the tune you're playing has an intentional tempo change, any Bluegrass tune you play should start and end with the same beat. There's a story about Earl Scruggs and his brother, when he was learning to play the "banjo" (sorry). They'd stand in the front yard of their home, playing a tune, go to opposite sides, and walk around to the back, still playing. The object: to be at the same place in the tune even though they couldn't hear each other! Tempo and timing in Bluegrass are king! Sometimes players lose a sense for that and believe the-faster-the-better! Not true! Keep on listening to your own music!

[twilson]

I think there is a natural tension in bluegrass music. To my ears, Bill Monroe was always pushing the beat with his chop, and the rest of us have dutifully followed. His solos seem to push it too. It's up to the band, collectively, to hold it back. If you can maintain the tension and not speed up, it makes bluegrass exciting and compelling. I've read where Bill said he always had to train his guitar players (with Carter Stanley the exception). I believe, but don't know, that that is what he was talking about: maintaining tempo while pushing the beat.

one man's opinion.

tim wilson

[JeffD]

Here's the thing IMO. You want to be deliberate. You want your tempo to be under your control. What ever it is. If, for artistic and performance reasons, you want to pick up the tempo as you go along, then good. If not then don't. But what ever happens, it should be the result of conscious decisions, not just somethign that happens.

IMHO-YMMV

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Music should breath, ebb and flow. I see no reason why tempos can't move within an acceptable range. No, big jumps shouldn't happen, and it shouldn't be noticeable. That said, I would rather have a band speed up a little through the song but have a happening, dynamic rhythm section than have it keep tempo perfectly but sound stilted and boring. It should be a feel thing. If it fees right then that's the test for me.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

And don't get me started on click tracks

[multidon]

We have the same problem in our Old Time band so it's not just Bluegrass.

I believe it is a natural tendency of human beings when they get excited about what they are doing.

One point no one else mentioned yet. What is missing from Bluegrass and Old Time that is present in most other types of music? A percussionist. Now I would agree that any musician no matter what they play should be able to keep a consistent tempo. But percussionists or drummers if you prefer are REALLY good at it. That's because they are specialists in beat and rhythm. It's all they do. So bands that have drummers depend on them to keep things tight. In Bluegrass and Old Time we don't have that "crutch" so that makes consistency in tempo and rhythm more difficult IMHO.

[bradlaird]

I distinctly remember analyzing a Flatt & Scruggs recording of Foggy Mountain Breakdown to get a readout on their recorded tempo. (I was doing this before the big Guinness World Record mass FMB thing I was involved in in Atlanta in Sept. 2006) The very thing Rex Hart describes was present and (I don't have the notes in front of me) there was a 10+ beats per minute increase from start to finish.

I'd like to mention that timing and tempo are related but not the same thing. Everybody seems to get that here. Tempo can ebb and flow and the timing remain "good". It happens all the time. Written formal music is full of indications for tempo changes such as a tempo and ritard.

Here is a link to an article I wrote recently about timing and some fun MP3 tracks to play around with...

http://www.bradleylaird.com/blog-art...minefield.html

I agree with Mike (above) about ebb and flow, however there are times (such as playing for dancers) where this might not be such a good idea. Also, I think a big jump in tempo (or a decrease) could be a powerful arranging technique and should be noticed to be effective in that role. If we are talking about jamming and typical song performances a little ebb and flow is natural and not to be worried over.

Back to work... see ya'll!

[Rex Hart]

[QUOTE=bradlaird;1302690]I distinctly remember analyzing a Flatt & Scruggs recording of Foggy Mountain Breakdown to get a readout on their recorded tempo. (I was doing this before the big Guinness World Record mass FMB thing I was involved in in Atlanta in Sept. 2006) The very thing Rex Hart describes was present and (I don't have the notes in front of me) there was a 10+ beats per minute increase from start to finish.

I seem to recall someone mentioning this in an older post only it said about Ricky Skaggs. I think the key is in what was said earlier; tempo can change, just as long as everyone is playing in time ( which also can be tricky!) Thanks everyone for the advice. I feel somewhat better now

[jaycat]

. . . One point no one else mentioned yet. What is missing from Bluegrass and Old Time that is present in most other types of music? A percussionist. Now I would agree that any musician no matter what they play should be able to keep a consistent tempo. But percussionists or drummers if you prefer are REALLY good at it. That's because they are specialists in beat and rhythm. It's all they do. So bands that have drummers depend on them to keep things tight. In Bluegrass and Old Time we don't have that "crutch" so that makes consistency in tempo and rhythm more difficult IMHO.

If you have a bass player, they should be holding down the tempo and rhythm.

[Michael Weaver]

Music should breath, ebb and flow. I see no reason why tempos can't move within an acceptable range. No, big jumps shouldn't happen, and it shouldn't be noticeable. That said, I would rather have a band speed up a little through the song but have a happening, dynamic rhythm section than have it keep tempo perfectly but sound stilted and boring. It should be a feel thing. If it fees right then that's the test for me.

Absolutely! If you ever watched the Tony Rice and Happy Traum Homespun interview, tempo was mentioned. Happy asked Tony if he used a metronome and he said something along the lines of "I do not use one and never used them because music should breathe. You shouldn't be mechanical." On the same hand.....I have met some people that could really really use one. I have one to train my children with but they use it more as a toy than anything else. I'm also not sure how the Earl Scruggs trick would work. As soon as you started to hear the other instrument you would subconsciously change your tempo to match each other. At least I know I would.

[AlanN]

The Hobo on a Freight Train analogy comes to mind (Todd Phillips idea as discussed in the Rice book). If you are picking with copacetic pickers, you hardly have to say anything, it just happens.

[Willie Poole]

I have found that sometimes a guitar player will try to add to the song by putting in some fancy "runs" and if his timing is a bit off a lot of time the rest of the band will change to his beat, I have been lucky with most of my band members that they do look for me and my mandolin chop to keep them on track, I have been told that my timing is as good as they have ever heard, NO BRAG, JUST FACT....I filled in once playing the bass and was told it was the best timing they have had...My brother and I used to start a record and start playing along with it and he would turn the sound down for about a minute or so and when he turned it back up I was still right on time...Again, no brag, Just a fact....

If you band speeds up and it bothers you then work on it a little harder....

[Tom Smart]

If you have a bass player, they should be holding down the tempo and rhythm.

I hear this all the time at jams as an excuse for chaotic timing: "Well, we don't have a bass player."

One self-anointed jam expert even "helpfully" explained to Claire Lynch at a workshop that it's the bass player's job to keep the band in time. She forcefully corrected him, explaining that good timing is everyone's responsibility.

Playing out of time is one's own fault, not the bass player's (or lack thereof). Besides, some bass players in my experience have atrocious timing.

[Jim Nollman]

Someone doesn't like click tracks? OK, sure, unless you're playing a laptop onstage, does anyone use a CT onstage?

Only about half my clients have requested a CT in the studio, and less so if the band is recording a tune in real time, whether standing around one mike or using several mikes. But even then, the person editing the track better have some way to measure beats-per-minute, because when he/she starts cutting, it could ruin the session if there's no click track to work from.

A click track should never be a synonym for musical impurity. Regard it, rather, as a measuring tool. A talking ruler. Criticizing a click track is like criticizing a hammer. No one criticizes hammers even if they spend their day only using saws.

You want to record overdubs? Sure, some can multitrack a series of overdubs without a CT. But it might take twice as long to get it all synced, and studio time is not cheap. As a former music producer who sometimes got paid by the hour, you'd think I wouldn't mind all that extra time just to get several tracks to match beat-wise. Honestly, I sometimes regarded mismatched rhythm tracks as enough reason to start the whole thing over. Trying to get them to match was a crazy waste of money for the person paying me. Especially since a CT would have assured that it wouldn't happen.

A click track is valuable when we are using a drum machine. It is essential and nearly mandatory whenever we are using a sampler, or any of the other digital tools invented for adding rhythm, and even more so for recording counter-rhythm. In that case, you have to start the recording session by choosing a beats per minute which is the basis for any click track. You need the click track to define the beat both for the players and the rhythm tools.

[Timbofood]

The bass player is responsible for his own timing which most often what everyone else follows, it is indeed everyone's job to maintain their own rhythm, the bass player is simply one that everyone falls back on. The whole "letting things get out of control" is unfortunately something that can happen before you realize it. My guitar player gets lost from time to time which drives me nuts but, you learn to work with it.

[tree]

The Hobo on a Freight Train analogy comes to mind (Todd Phillips idea as discussed in the Rice book). If you are picking with copacetic pickers, you hardly have to say anything, it just happens.

Two marks, Alan, for using "copacetic" in a sentence, and making me look it up to see what it really means (I was in the ball park, guessing from context).

I also like the Hobo On A Train analogy, but it still blows my mind a little bit to try to apply it to music in the moment. It seems to me like, if you're speeding up, you're speeding up. I just can't wrap my mind around "playing at the front edge of the beat, like a hood ornament", as Sammy Shelor describes it. Oddly, I have no trouble with the concept of "behind the beat", since so many singers (especially jazz singers) like to use this as a stylistic embellishment. Go figure.