HB to most famous Gibson F5 ever built on this day in 1923

[f5loar]

On this day, July 9th of 1923 the Acoustic Engineer, Lloyd A. Loar at Gibson Co. signed his seal of approval in what would become the most famous Gibson F5 mandolin ever built. By chance a nice day in Jan. of 1945, Bill Monroe happened upon seeing a Gibson mandolin hanging in a Jacksonville, FL barbershop window while on tour in the sunshine state. The price new would have been $275 (with deluxe case) however this one was slightly used and priced at $150.00. Monroe tuned it up to standard and struck a B chord and the world of bluegrass music as we knew up until this time would be forever changed. He cut the $150 deal and got a free haircut to boot. No other history about this particular F5 was known and it's original owner never disclosed. Today that mandolin has a value in excess of $1,000,000.00. Happy Birthday to Gibson F5 serial no. 73987 and may it's place in bluegrass music remain for generations to come.

[almeriastrings]

The most miraculous thing of all is that after that momentous day - he never suffered from MAS again.

We can all learn something from that

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Almeria - "....... he never suffered from MAS again." I wouldn't contradict you,but Bill Monroe did have a second Loar & maybe a few other 'guest' instruments (think Ibanez). Leastways i understand you fully,in that he used his July 9th Loar almost exclusively. There's a separate thread re.Bill's 'other' Loar on here - a lot of food for thought regarding that one !!,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

Indeed he did, Ivan - though they were pretty much relegated to "second fiddle" status... one for alternate tunings, for example. I'm not aware he ever played the Ibanez other than to have his pic taken with it and to be polite to the company who gave it to him. He is (in my mind) as closely associated with 'that' particular Loar as any musician in any genre is associated with one specific instrument.

[brunello97]

Was it the barber's instrument or was he selling it on consignment?

Mick

[pheffernan]

The most miraculous thing of all is that after that momentous day - he never suffered from MAS again. We can all learn something from that

Only on the Mandolin Cafe can Mike Black thank a post about overcoming MAS while I am plagued by MAS for an instrument made by Mike Black.

[f5loar]

I got to chunk on it while CD was finishing it up at the Gibson Nashville Factory before he gave it back to Monroe and it didn't float my boat. CD said since the tone bars were really damaged it was never the same after the repairs he did but good enough as many have mentioned for Monroe to use and he only used it in other tunings when he got it back. There are very few photos of Monroe on stage with this 2nd Loar so that should be an indication he didn't think much of it before the damage. He does use it post repair for MLDE in the instruction video and there is at least one youtube of him on stage solo with bass doing MLDE with this 2nd Loar.
True Monroe did have many other mandolins that usually people just gave him including 2 Ibanez models but for the most part he was cured of MAS after finding the July 9, 1923 F5. He did buy the 2nd Loar from a widow woman who's husband wanted him to have it (for a price) and he did buy the 1964 Gibson F5 that he used to record MLDE before donating it to the CMHF where it still hangs today. I know of no other mandolins after the barbershop deal that he paid for. I have not heard Monroe say if the barber owned it or it was just there for sale by someone else. Kinda strange a barbershop would have anything for sale back then other than their services and products related to hair care and a pack of cheese nabs or Moon Pie with soda to drink while you wait. For Monroe it was right place at the right time and the fact he was carrying at least $150 in his pocket back in war times. Today if you want to feel the difference and excitement Monroe felt in 1945, just compare the sound and feel of a Gibson prewar short neck F2/F4/F7/F10/F12 to that of a Loar signed F5. Big difference there! There are many of the bluegrass mandolin legends that did the same thing. Once they found the F5 they liked they stuck with it. Few ever went back.

[AlanN]

Well-put, Tom. Compared to Dave Apollon, Monroe was mostly a one-mandolin man, then.

[Richard58]

I have a friend who has a barbershop. I'v seen guns, music instruments among other different items for sale there in the past. A place where men talk, work deals things are traded and sold all the time.

[Willie Poole]

I had a mandolin built for me by a fellow named Mac Barnes and he also built one and presented it to Monroe at a Grand Old Opry show on Bill`s birthday, It was made from the Siminoff plans and did say "The Gibson" on the head stock...I have never heard of any mention of this mandolin since that day he presented it to Bill, but I`m sure Bill had others given to him this same way...

[Richard58]

I had a chance to pick on it for just a moment back stage at a benefit for the duke hospital at the Vance co. Community college back in 1989. I was playing bass for a opening band there. It had good sound but I'v heard better stuff from modern makers of today. That show had Jim and Jesse, Mac Wiseman, with Bill Monroe. I took some good close up pics of Jesses Stiver mandolin but did not photo Bills mandolin. I was interested in Tater Tate's fiddling at the time and not so much of a mandolin person. In fact Bill was kinda a stand offish type person of sorts and not much of a talker I noticed of him. IMHO Mac Wiseman put on the best part of the show and didn't have his own band. He used Jim and Jesses band to perform with.

[FLATROCK HILL]

On this day, July 9th of 1923 the Acoustic Engineer, Lloyd A. Loar at Gibson Co. signed his seal of approval in what would become the most famous Gibson F5 mandolin ever built. By chance a nice day in Jan. of 1945, Bill Monroe happened upon seeing a Gibson mandolin hanging in a Jacksonville, FL barbershop window while on tour in the sunshine state. The price new would have been $275 (with deluxe case) however this one was slightly used and priced at $150.00. Monroe tuned it up to standard and struck a B chord and the world of bluegrass music as we knew up until this time would be forever changed. He cut the $150 deal and got a free haircut to boot. No other history about this particular F5 was known and it's original owner never disclosed. Today that mandolin has a value in excess of $1,000,000.00. Happy Birthday to Gibson F5 serial no. 73987 and may it's place in bluegrass music remain for generations to come.

I'm not disputing any of your info there, but I would like some clarification just for my own curiousity.
I believe that in one of the Rinsler Home-Spun tapes, Bill himself says that the Mandolin came from Tampa and he picked it up in '42. I don't remember off hand the account in the 'Can't You Hear Me Callin' book was. Just wondering who else would know the real story beside W.S.M. himself.

[f5loar]

Monroe has been all over the place throughout his elder years with dates and places he got it. First he said just in Florida in 1941, then years later he said Tampa, FL in 1942 and then it was Miami, FL 1943. No one thought to ask Monroe this question until the mid 60's when his memory of an exact date or place was not so clear. The barbershop and the price is about all he really remembered. It had been almost 20 years before he was first asked. Smith interviewed me for much of the Loar stuff in his book in 1999. Smith spent several nights in my home and then I turned him onto others to interview about Monroe. Tom Ewing and I have gone back and forth on this also about those dates and in Tom's book he narrowed it down to Jacksonville, FL in Jan. 1945 as he found access to Monroe's touring schedule during the 40's and that was the only date and place he toured FL and could have bought the mandolin. Since that book was published in 2000 where he mentions 1945 in a footnote, Tom has found much more detail about the mandolin(s) and it will be forthcoming in his not yet announced true biography on Monroe. It's like asking your grandfather when he bought his tractor he had been using daily for the past 20 years. He would say "oh, I don't know about 20 years ago", when it fact it was 18 years ago. I guess to Monroe it was not an important date to remember at the time it happened. I've asked, over the years, several of the bluegrass boys that were with Monroe during the early to mid 40's about this great purchase of the Gibson F5 and not one knew any details and yet I now know at least some of them were with him at the time or at least knew about it right after the purchase. Nobody is trying to re-write the history of this mandolin but as in many historical events over the years you do find out more details and sometimes corrections are in order. I welcome anymore information or corrections on my part concerning the matter. I'm pretty sure Tom Ewing's book will be as fact based as possible or he will not print it. If you will note the two books on Monroe by Smith and Ewing were published a few years after his death. Smith's book does have a lot of factual writings, and then many of his quotes could not be disputed as Monroe was no longer alive to add his 2 cents on the matter. Some things didn't come out until after his death as some of the older bluegrass boys got things off their chest they had been holding in all those years. However in Ewing's first book, it is nothing more than actual news articles reprinted by permission and then some corrections noted. I look for Ewing's new book to be the final word on the history/biography of Bill Monroe, the man and his music.

[brunello97]

Thanks. The 'mandolin in the barber shop' is such a great trope. Sheri Mignano wrote the book on it "Mandolins Like Salami" after seeing all the mandolins hanging (like salamis) in pre-war Italian barber shops in San Francisco.

Even if the Monroe story is apocryphal it is a good story and worth re-telling. I am happy believing it's true. Even better that he got a shave and a haircut in the bargain. As they say "when the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

Mick

[Petrus]

$150 back then was more like $1K in today's money. Shows you the power of inflation!

Edit: According to this site, http://www.westegg.com/inflation, it's actually northwards of $2K in inflation adjusted price.

[DataNick]

$150 back then was more like $1K in today's money. Shows you the power of inflation!

Edit: According to this site, http://www.westegg.com/inflation, it's actually northwards of $2K in inflation adjusted price.

And the MSRP in 1923 of $250 for a new Gibson F5 Master Mandolin is roughly $3500 in today's market.
If you shop smartly, you can still get a really good mandolin these days for $3500...of course a new mandolin in terms of price has inflated comparatively from 1923's price to an equivalent I'm guessing of $12-20k (insert your favorite here: Ellis, Red Diamond, Gibson MM, Dude, Gil, Nugget, Duff, Brentrup, Montelone, Vessel, etc.)

[JeffD]

Maybelle's Guitar and Monroe's Mandolin

[DataNick]

Maybelle's Guitar and Monroe's Mandolin

Looks like a Bozeman Flatiron Festival/Artist F the mando player is playing...anyone one know who he is?

[verbs4us]

Interested in your thoughts on a paradox. The most valuable, most iconic F5 in the world had a hell of a life. It bounced around the back of cars. I'm sure it was crammed in the trunk of an un-air-conditioned car at some point. It was played at Bean Blossom when it was 90 deg F and 90% humidity. It was smashed with a fireplace poker and Charlie Derrington pieced it back together. And yet...so many valuable modern instruments are treated like museum pieces. If I had a Nugget, I'm not sure I would play it on the porch on a sultry August afternoon--yet, what a great pleasure that would be! So many top-level instruments I see in the classified are listed as "rarely left the house" and "not a scratch." Which reminds me of the quote from Navy Rear Admiral Hopper: "A ship is safe in port but that's not what ships are built for." I guess if you want an investment, you keep it in the case; if you want music, the ship leaves port and braves stormy seas.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Looks like a Bozeman Flatiron Festival/Artist F the mando player is playing...anyone one know who he is?

I surely don't know who he is but he looks like he could be some not too distant Steffey kin.

[sgrexa]

If I had a Nugget, I'm not sure I would play it on the porch on a sultry August afternoon--yet, what a great pleasure that would be!

I do it all the time and it is a pleasure, but it has been a little too hot lately and I much prefer the AC I do take it everywhere and I find I am no more careful with it than I am any other mando, they get used but not abused. I try to keep it mind that these things are a lot rougher and tougher than they look and both Mike Kemnitzer and Steve Gilchrist have told me personally that they are much happier seeing them being played and beat up a little bit than tucked away in a case somewhere.

Sean

PS- I thought that mando in the video was a Henderson but could be wrong.

[sgrexa]

I surely don't know who he is but he looks like he could be some not too distant Steffey kin.

Is that Scott Tichenor

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Sean - "Mike Kemnitzer and Steve Gilchrist have told me personally that they are much happier seeing them being played and beat up a little bit than tucked away in a case somewhere.". I wonder what their thoughts are on Bill Monroe's mandolin being stuck in a glass case to be gawked at,never to be heard again.To me,it's little short of blasphemy & no excuse under the sun will ever persuade me that it couldn't be made playable again (that's if it's not playable right now - but how would we ever know ??),
Ivan

[verbs4us]

From Sean - [I]"I wonder what their thoughts are on Bill Monroe's mandolin being stuck in a glass case to be gawked at,never to be heard again.To me,it's little short of blasphemy & no excuse under the sun will ever persuade me that it couldn't be made playable again (that's if it's not playable right now - but how would we ever know ??),
Ivan

I had a dream that everyone on the Cafe chipped in and the Cafe bought Bill's F5. We restored it to playable condition. We formed a Bill's F5 Foundation. Then, like the Nobel committee, we gathered in Stockholm and decided who will get to use it for the next year. In the dream, John Reischmann had it the first time, then some 12-year-old whiz kid. Then Ry Cooder. Then I woke up.

[sgrexa]

Well, to some extent I think it is cool that it is in a museum for the general public to see, but it would be nice if it got out at least a couple months a year to be played and heard. Insurance would be a concern.

Sean