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Thread: How to get a consistent sound

  1. #1

    Default How to get a consistent sound

    I'm an intermediate player (forever!) and have some good playing days and some bad. I don't seem to be able to produce a consistent sound or tone from my Moon mandolin. What I play today sounds very different from what I play tomorrow.

    The problem seems to be with the right hand. I've tried all the advice and tips available but I can't get a free-flowing pick technique. The pick sticks and jams in the strings and makes them sound quite flat. It also prevents me from playing faster. I've tried to develop a light touch but the tip of the pick very often ends up pointing towards the nut. It's also hard to hear the tune when playing light.

    I'm a bit heavy on the left hand as well, so that doesn't help either.

    The other side is that when I'm in the mood and not thinking too much about it, I can play reasonably well and freely!

    Any suggestions?

  2. #2
    Peace. Love. Mandolin. Gelsenbury's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Could you post a video or photo of your right hand in action? If the point of your plectrum ends up pointing at the nut, there may be an issue with pick grip or tension in the wrist. At least that's my best guess.

  3. #3
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    the right hand is the hard part. I think it takes practice, not to make light of your OP. I'm working on getting intentional dynamics too and it seems elusive. . .

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

  4. #4

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    I'd love to see your pick grip. It sounds to me like you might be using your fingertips to hold the pick and are picking by using the fingers instead of the wrist. The grip I like is the Compton grip. Here's pretty good description of the grip that cafe member Jon Hall posted s few years ago.
    "As I understood, he holds the pick loosely between the ball of his thumb, which I assumed is the first knuckle from the end, and the first knuckle(from the end) of the index finger. When I tried this my thumb and the first joint of my index finger are parallel to each other in a straight line. This is very different from the way I've held the pick when playing both mandolin and guitar. I have always held the pick between the pad of my thumb and the first knuckle of my index finger. My thumb and finger form an X.

    When I tried holding the pick the way described I was astounded by the increased volume! I've played my Weber Absaroka for 10 - 11 years and have never heard that tone/volume before last night! I was even distracted from watching the Cowboys / Eagles game

    The grip was fairly comfortable, though different, when playing a fiddle tune but felt very awkward when playing a tremelo or strumming."

  5. #5

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Thanks everyone. That's great advice. I'll try that new grip Mike. In the meantime, I'll attempt to post a video tonight.

  6. #6

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    The spinning pick is a problem with many and certainly myself included,,, I think it took me roughly a year to get it to stop spinning. Mike's description is good. The only thing I would add is that I find that having only a small part of the point showing as the picking part is also important.... You may think there is not enough point showing but only a quarter inch of pick needs to show as the picking area. Your accuracy will improve with practice. It will feel a bit odd at first but if you stick with it you will be fine.

  7. #7
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    something else that helps me is to intentionally look at my picking hand. Watching the pick encounter the strings, observing all of the little details of picking. Take a tune that you really know and (for me), my accuracy at faster tempo is improved when I study what my pick is doing.

    (never watched or read about holding the pick, but I seem to do what Compton does. I get big volume!)

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

  8. #8

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    For those of you who go with the Compton hold, do you use a large triangle pick or or teardrop pick? I seem to remember doing a workshop with Compton and seeing that he was using a large triangle shape pick, anyone know if that is correct? I know that when I tried his approach it worked better for me when I used one of those larger triangle shaped pick vs a teardrop shaped pick.

    I don't use what the others are describing as the Compton hold. Instead of holding the pick between the first joint of the thumb and the side of the first joint of the index finger, I tend to hold mine between the face of the last digit(distal phalanges) of the thumb and the side of the last digit of the index finger.

    In either case as long as you get the basic mechanics sorted, the pick spinning in your grip will eventually work itself out. I wouldn't get to worked up about it or try any exotic remedies like drilling holes in picks, coating them with rubber or gluing sandpaper to them or anything. Just stick with it, stay relaxed and it will work itself out.

    I suspect the cause is either an imbalance in your up and down strokes or a something funny going on in the timing of when you tighten and loosen your grip on the pick as you pick the strings. I think most people, whether they are conscious of it or not, are constantly varying their grip on the pick, tightening as they pick the string and loosening in between strokes. If the timing of this is inconsistent between up and down strokes it could easily result in the pick rotating in your grasp. The advice to stick out as little of the pick as possible is also good advice and will minimize any tendency for the pick to rotate.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffJones View Post
    For those of you who go with the Compton hold, do you use a large triangle pick or or teardrop pick? I seem to remember doing a workshop with Compton and seeing that he was using a large triangle shape pick, anyone know if that is correct? I know that when I tried his approach it worked better for me when I used one of those larger triangle shaped pick vs a teardrop shaped pick.

    I don't use what the others are describing as the Compton hold. Instead of holding the pick between the first joint of the thumb and the side of the first joint of the index finger, I tend to hold mine between the face of the last digit(distal phalanges) of the thumb and the side of the last digit of the index finger.

    In either case as long as you get the basic mechanics sorted, the pick spinning in your grip will eventually work itself out. I wouldn't get to worked up about it or try any exotic remedies like drilling holes in picks, coating them with rubber or gluing sandpaper to them or anything. Just stick with it, stay relaxed and it will work itself out.

    I suspect the cause is either an imbalance in your up and down strokes or a something funny going on in the timing of when you tighten and loosen your grip on the pick as you pick the strings. I think most people, whether they are conscious of it or not, are constantly varying their grip on the pick, tightening as they pick the string and loosening in between strokes. If the timing of this is inconsistent between up and down strokes it could easily result in the pick rotating in your grasp. The advice to stick out as little of the pick as possible is also good advice and will minimize any tendency for the pick to rotate.
    I use a TAD Blue Chip pick.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Here's a piece of low-quality iPhone video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OxolTNyYYg

    It's the first time I've 'seen' myself playing, apart from my reflection in the computer monitor!

    I use a .73 Jim Dunlop pick. I've tried the triangle picks in the past but they don't have any 'give' for playing Irish music. Looking at this video, I probably show too much of the pick. However, when I show less, the knuckle of my index finger rubs against the strings.

    Thanks for all the great suggestions. Maybe it is indeed just a matter of more practice and getting used to it, though I've been practicing for years!

  11. #11

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    When I try to see the vid, I get the message that it is private.

  12. #12

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Oops! Sorry about that Mike. I've now changed the settings, so it should be visible.

  13. #13
    two t's and one hyphen fatt-dad's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    I like the ct-55 pick

    f-d
    ˇpapá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!

    '20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A

  14. #14
    Registered User Chris W.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Just my opinion, but I think you would benefit from a heavier gauge pick. The "give" that you like from a light pick is probably why you are getting "stuck" in the strings. A light pick won't keep up with your right hand at faster tempos because it is still flexed in the direction it was last used. Try experimenting with heavier picks. Play the tunes without ornamentation at first and see if you like the tone. Then bring up to speed with the triplets and see if that works for you.

  15. #15

    Unhappy Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Just looking at the video again in the cold light of day, my playing sounds hesitant and unsure. It's a long way from where I was two years ago when I couldn't even finish one tune, but there's definitely something missing. My teacher said that playing takes confidence but I don't seem to have much of that.

  16. #16
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    I'd say you're leaving too much pick sticking out front and not enough in the control of your fingers.
    You also angle the pick a lot, possibly due to the back end of the mandolin being very low, it's really not getting much chance to transfer energy to the strings.

    I'd have a look at bringing the mandolin up to where you can control it better. Get more of the body of the pick in your grip too. That way you'll be able to bring your pick in line with the strings more. Then you are in control of how much angle you give the pick, and if you want to let it be soft, then you can just loosen the grip more. The way you are at the moment it's a combination of things taking away your control over how much energy you put in to the strings.
    Eoin



    "Forget that anyone is listening to you and always listen to yourself" - Fryderyk Chopin

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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Watching the video, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the way you hold the pick, but a significant part of your pick stroke comes from moving your thumb - it looks like the gap between your index and middle fingers opens and closes as you play. Although some people seem to play well like that, it doesn't work for me. You could try keeping your thumb reasonably still in relation to your hand (but not to the point of tensing up) and moving the pick using your wrist a bit more. This might help you drive the pick through the strings and not get caught up as easily.

    Patrick

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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    when things don't click for me on a certain day, i try to just chalk it up to 'one of those days'. i think that i can over-analyze, and in the process make things worse. and the next day, everything is fine.

    just a thought,

    tim wilson

  19. #19

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    I think your basic technique looks fine. But it looks to me like you are angling the pick slightly to favor your downstroke, and so you pick is catching more on your upstroke and that is resulting in the pick rotation.

    So I guess I would suggest that you try to get your pick to be more perpendicular to the strings, so that the angle that your pick forms with the string is the same on your downstroke and your upstroke.

  20. #20

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    I go along with the advice to try a heavier plectrum, I have found over the years that I have gone from light to pretty heavy with no flex in the plectrum at all. Currently I am favouring a Jim Dunlop Primetone 1.5 sculpted and previously a Jim Dunlop Big Stubby 3.0, but both work well for me. It is a bit a transition though! I also agree that it looks to me like there is too much of the plectrum visible. Good Luck!
    Rob

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  21. #21
    Peace. Love. Mandolin. Gelsenbury's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Quote Originally Posted by MandoGael View Post
    Here's a piece of low-quality iPhone video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OxolTNyYYg
    This may or may not help towards a solution, but here are my impressions:

    You start out with a good pick grip, the one that seems to work for most people. Expert players would probably show even less of the pick to the string, but it looks pretty good.

    From about 20 seconds in, the angle of your pick gradually seems to change slightly. I get the impression that the point of the pick begins to point slightly upwards, towards your face. This gives you a poorer contact on the strings. You are still hitting all the notes, but it probably begins to feel wrong to you. And you seem to try to compensate by pressing down harder with your thumb, adjusting the position of your middle finger, or both.

    The result is that your middle finger moves further away from your index finger as you play. Fast-forward the video from, say, 0:10 to 2:00, and you will see what I mean. There is less balance in your hand position, more tension, and therefore less pick control towards the end.

    To be sure, your playing still sounds good. I really like it. But you can increase your pick control and thereby prevent the pick from rotating in unwanted ways, by keeping the balanced and relaxed grip, avoiding tension and the increased pressure from your thumb.

    A different pick may, potentially, help you in achieving this. A thin pick like yours is not a no-no. Plenty of Irish and English players use picks around .7 or .8. But they probably leave less of the point exposed and thereby limit the flexibility of the pick. It may be the movement of these relatively large portions of the thin pick that cause you to lose your grip. So you could try leaving less plastic exposed, or using a slightly heavier pick (I find that 1.1 mm is still nimble enough for triplets, at least at my slow speed), or using a narrower shape (such as the John Pearse picks).

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  23. #22

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Hello everyone. Thank you so much for the great tips. I've been trying a Fender Nylon 1mm pick for the past week. There seems to be a bit of an improvement but it's still slipping and catching! That middle finger is still sticking out too. I'm showing less of the pick to the strings but then it starts to disappear between my fingers. Very frustrating.

    Perhaps the only way to solve the problem is to meet face-to-face with an experienced player and to go through my technique in detail.

    Thanks once again to all of you for your help.

  24. #23
    Registered User Pasha Alden's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    I wonder if too much of the plectrum is out of your hand, that is too much of the point exposed when you play? Just a thought. Also think there is as you say some problems with pick direction.

    I think you must keep playing and try and keep the good advice in the back of your head without constantly thinking of pick grip. When I encounter issues of that nature I practice these separately and then tackle one of my favourite songs. That method seems to work for me.

    Best of luck and keep at it. <smile>

    Pasha Alden

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  25. #24

    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    Quote Originally Posted by PseudoCelt View Post
    Watching the video, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the way you hold the pick, but a significant part of your pick stroke comes from moving your thumb - it looks like the gap between your index and middle fingers opens and closes as you play. Although some people seem to play well like that, it doesn't work for me. You could try keeping your thumb reasonably still in relation to your hand (but not to the point of tensing up) and moving the pick using your wrist a bit more. This might help you drive the pick through the strings (my bold) and not get caught up as easily.
    A common error in beginners--allowing the pick to bounce off the strings rather than playing through the strings. I recommend putting a towel over the neck and isolating your right hand picking while you practice some exercises. Pick grip/hold is not necessarily a problem here--it's the arm/hand motion

    You're playing entirely from the wrist--down: allowing the pick angle (the aspect of the pick to strings) to migrate. You need greater energy in your right hand: rather than merely playing from the wrist, you actually need to employ your forearm, shoulder (and in fact your whole body); playing any instrument involves the entire arm and body--not just wrist and fingers. Coordinating your arm/body thus will provide not only strength but also stability.

    Using your forearm as a cam--not as a static, but rather as a dynamic platform--is essential to help keep your pick angle consistent as you move from string course to course, varying strokes, etc. Think: mechanics
    Last edited by catmandu2; Jul-18-2014 at 11:51am.

  26. #25
    Registered User John Soper's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to get a consistent sound

    I took a workshop with Peter Ostroushko a few years ago and asked him what he does to produce his great tone- he commented that he starts each day's playing warming up with simple slow down & up rest strokes on all single strings and then progresses to slow scales, listening for consistent volume, making sure that he is plying through the strings- gradually speeding up. Same thing with tremolo. While I don't do this every day, I often go back to that process to work on the right hand mechanics of producing tone if I've been away from the mandolin for a bit or think I need corrective measures in my right hand technique.

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