F model scroll function

[Jim Hudson]

I own 2 conventional F model mando's, a Flatiron that Is my working mando and a Collings that stays outta the sun if you know what I mean. While trolling various boutique luthier sites I came across Everett Guitars. Like many high end luthiers, his work is over the top beautiful and artistic, which is all I can say given that I've never heard either his guitars or his mando's. But I am fascinated by his take on the F model (he calls his an "E" model). He leaves the upper bout scroll out and replaces it with open body space that would presumably increase low end volume/improve low end tone/ ... insert your opinion. The scroll on conventional F models is solid - is there a sonic purpose here that I'm missing. Does the solid scroll have some mass effect that gives F models their reportedly longer sustain and if so would the open lower bout of an Everett mando lose something?

[yankees1]

Remember those old cars from the 30''s, 40's, 50's and a few sixties ? They had hood ornaments ! Well, that scroll is a F model hood ornament !

[Jim Hudson]

So I've been looking for other luthiers that have done something similar with the upper bout - it would just seem natural since the scroll is apparently functionless ornamentation. Breedlove has their K models which have a similar take. But I've never heard one of them either.

[JeffD]

The scoll has no measurable effect on tone or volume or sustain. The difference between an F body mandolin and an A can be smaller than the difference between two F s.

[Jim Hudson]

Is anyone else doing this? Carlos Everett says it increases the interior volume of his mandos by and estimated 18 - 20 %. That would seem significant. Is his design take a more modern interpretation - Does he have a better idea than Mr Loar?

[Jeff Mando]

The "function" of the scroll is style and pizazz!!! Doncha know?!!!

I've never played an Everett, but the theory of open body space seems sound to me. Years ago I worked at a music store that handled Taylor guitars, most models were available standard or CE (cutaway with electronics). You wouldn't think it would make much difference, but the non-cutaway (standard) guitars always sounded better than the cutaways. Of course, most buyers wanted the cutaway and the electronics.

[multidon]

I am not sure where I read or heard this but I believe the hook scroll on F style Breedloves is hollow.

[Jim Hudson]

Don't get me wrong, style and pizazz are important. But I've always preffered the sound of full body guitars as well. The scroll is a pain to build ... if it sound's better and your construction cost is lower it's a win/win to me.

[Gene Summers]

jdh, Actually, the scroll looks SEXY to me! Curves man, curves! BTW, do a google search on F5 mandolin construction, you will find that the scroll is NOT hollow, and many experts say that the Loar A5 Griffith sounds as good as the Loar F5's he also designed. The F5 points on my Eastman help me hold the mandolin on my lap much easier than my Weber A.

[Jeff Mando]

It seems Chris Knutsen was ahead of his time.....

[bart mcneil]

If you want to increase interior volume why not simply increase the dimension of A model body by 1/4" all the way around. It would cost just a few cents in wood and give one the increased interior mentioned above. The F style strap hanger may increase interior volume in some models but at the cost of maybe $500+ for maybe a cubic inch or two of additional interior space.

The strap hanger is really the equivalent of the 1960s bizarre tail fins on automobiles. Pretty cool looking but utterly function-less except as a strap hanger.

[lenf12]

In theory, the solid scroll of a traditional F style provides more mass to the neck block which would produce better sonic coupling of the neck and body. I don't know if this is perceptable or even measurable. I'm sure the sound port on the Everett E-5 factors into what the player is hearing since some of the sound is projected upwards towards the player. Not so with the traditional F style which projects sound mostly forward, away from the player. Very interesting design, that Everett E-5.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[yankees1]

Is anyone else doing this? Carlos Everett says it increases the interior volume of his mandos by and estimated 18 - 20 %. That would seem significant. Is his design take a more modern interpretation - Does he have a better idea than Mr Loar?

I think that a different pick would contribute more to volume ! A scroll is for beauty , but--------------- beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that !

[sgrexa]

All I know is that Mr. Everett is not the first to experiment with interior air volumes and likely won't be the last. If anything truly groundbreaking had come as a result of this experimentation I think a lot of builders would be offering a variation on the theme. I am open to advances of any kind but I think the ultimate air volume has already been established at least within a pretty tight range.

Sean

[Jim Hudson]

Len, I'm fascinated by his simple "slope shouldered" upper bout design as well. I wish I could here one.

[Jim Hudson]

Optimal air volume would be based on frequency ... I think. The lower the string vibration frequency the bigger the optimum air volume. If that is correct then the optimal air volume would be a range that covers the reasonable range of frequencies the instrument is capable of. Maybe there's room for experimentation, especially given there are different frequencies attributable to the treble and bass sides of the instrument.

[Marty Jacobson]

I vary the body depth of my mandolins based on what I think the customer wants it to sound like. I think of it like a tone control on an electric guitar. I don't think there is a single "optimal" air chamber size. There's a range of air chamber sizes that will all work well, and will all sound slightly different. Things start to fall apart if the chamber gets too small or too large relative to the tuning of the instrument and the size of the plates, but to get to that point you have to make pretty dramatic and aesthetically obvious changes.

[Jim Hudson]

Thanks Marty, that makes some sense. It's good to here from a luthier. I'm trying to justify my fascination with the Everett design I guess. I think Mr Everett is in your neck of the woods, outside of Atlanta I think.

[Jim Hudson]

Mr Jacobson, Your instruments are absolutely gorgeous, BTW.

[Steve Sorensen]

The scroll is NOT solid on most Gibson-patterned F-style mandolins. I'm not sure why folks continue to repeat that tidbit of mis-information.

As you can see from this cool X-Ray of a Dudenbostel, the volume of air-space added by the scroll is substantial compared to an A-style --



Steve

[Marty Jacobson]

No reason to justify, it's a lovely concept. I think it'd be even lovelier without the carved cutaway and three-color Strat-burst.
Be aware that body volume is one of many, many factors that together influence a mandolin's final tone.

[Jim Hudson]

great pic StevenS. Thanks for clearing that up. I bet the Everett design adds more volume than that though who's to say that improves tone as Marty Jacobson points out.

[tkdboyd]

Another interesting take: http://www.labraid.ca/grand-concert
different creatures, but they are all good!

[FLATROCK HILL]

The scroll is NOT solid on most Gibson-patterned F-style mandolins. I'm not sure why folks continue to repeat that tidbit of mis-information.

As you can see from this cool X-Ray of a Dudenbostel, the volume of air-space added by the scroll is substantial compared to an A-style --



Steve

Thanks for posting that X-Ray pic. Whenever this subject comes up, I hear over and over that the scrolls are solid and therefore cannot offer any change in tone. I think this misinformation may be the result of confusion between the 'scroll' and the 'points' (which are solid to the best of my knowledge).

[allenhopkins]

...While trolling various boutique luthier sites I came across Everett Guitars. Like many high end luthiers, his work is over the top beautiful and artistic...

Link to Everett's "mando" page.