stumbled across this treatise on bridgemaking...

[Bluetickhound]

http://www.holliseaster.com/p/making...ndolin-bridge/

A lengthy read to be sure and I apologize if this has already been posted but I thought folks here might take an interest in the content...

[Jim Garber]

I was glad that he acknowledged Red Henry at the end of his article. RH's in-depth study of mandolin bridges can be read here.

[Bluetickhound]

Thanks for the link! All this makes me wonder why one piece bridges aren't more widely used? It can't just be slavish devotion to tradition, can it?

[billhay4]

It can't just be slavish devotion to tradition, can it?

I'm sure that is a big part of it, but they also are a pain if adjustments are needed. Also, I've never heard anyone say they made much of a difference in sound. Opinions on that vary, of course.
Bill

[Rick Lindstrom]

I was glad that he acknowledged Red Henry at the end of his article. RH's in-depth study of mandolin bridges can be read here.

Yeah- especially since they are obviously Red Henry style bridges.

[Pete Jenner]

After making and trying a few maple Red Henry style bridges, I came to the conclusion they are too bright for my liking.

[Rick Lindstrom]

After making and trying a few maple Red Henry style bridges, I came to the conclusion they are too bright for my liking.

I guess it's a matter of "YMMV". I built a few and tried them on an el cheapo mandolin I had at the time and concluded that the one I finally left on it definitely made a general improvement. It was maple. I tried ebony, purpleheart and rosewood as well, and none of those sounded as good as the maple.

[Bill Snyder]

Red used to post here occasionally. I built a one piece bridge for my first mandolin (an inexpensive import). I think it was based on one of Red's earlier designs but it might have been based on one of Steve Tourtellotte's desighn. I think perhaps it helped a little bit but given the limitations of the instrument itself nothing was going to make it sound wonderful.
FWIW I used teak for that bridge.

[adkpiper]

Hi friends!

Thanks so much for reading my piece--I noticed a bunch of traffic coming from Mandolin Cafe yesterday and decided to come check it out. Neat site! Seems like there's a lot of wisdom and mandolin love here.

I was a bit surprised by the comments that seemed to imply not mentioning Red Henry enough. Red is wonderful, and I really salute his generosity in providing information about his bridge experiments for the rest of us to learn from. When I wrote the post, I linked Red's site near the top of the page, mentioned him repeatedly (including crediting him with the designs) and then listed him again in the summary and follow-up sections. It surprises me that people didn't see those citations. In any case, it was always my intention to build upon and add to his work, not to supplant it. I've enjoyed the brief correspondence I've shared with Red; what I felt I added was a somewhat more scientific experimental design with documentation so listeners can hear for themselves.

That said, it seems as though several of you read my post and didn't catch the references to Red and his work. Since my goal was and is to connect with his body of writing, I want to fix that. I've added two more bits of text to the page about Red's experiments, and have highlighted some of it with additional links back into Red's site. Would you take a look at my page and see whether the references are clearer now? http://www.holliseaster.com/p/making...ndolin-bridge/

Thanks again for reading, and I look forward to talking with you about bridge design!

Best,
Hollis / adkpiper

[Bluetickhound]

I thought it was/is an excellent article (which is why I posted it here! The folks at the Cafe are great and have been extremely generous with their knowledge and advice) and the references to Red are very clear.... it is difficult (as you yourself noted) to clearly note the difference in the soundclips but the count off in seconds is helpful. I plan at some.point to experiment with one piece bridges myself and will be sure to elaborate on my own experiences when I do so...

[adkpiper]

I plan at some.point to experiment with one piece bridges myself and will be sure to elaborate on my own experiences when I do so...

Awesome! If you have any questions about technique once you get into it, I'll be happy to share any of the stuff I've figured out about making them. It's a lot of fun, and I wish you well with it.

Make "at some point" as soon as possible! I'd love to hear what you make.

[Red Henry]

Hollis, thanks for the kind mentions.

In fact, the difference with a maple bridge is usually not subtle at all. Most mandolins respond very positively, with increases in volume, sustain, and purity of tone, and with a quality bell-like treble even on moderately-priced instruments.

For more bass (generally on f-hole mandolins), try a winged bridge or a mahogany bridge, or even a winged mahogany bridge. In any case, start with a proven design, made of maple, and then work from there with designs and woods of your own for comparison.

I urge everyone to try making bridges. A great deal of the developmental work has been done for you. Experiments with dozens of designs and woods, and reports from 25 or 30 other bridgemakers, are on my site at http://www.murphymethod.com/index.cf...t&contentId=87 .

My "How to Make your Own Bridge" page, with linked .pdf templates of proven bridge designs, is at http://www.murphymethod.com/index.cf...&contentId=122 .

[multidon]

Very interesting thread! Thank you for starting it.

I wonder, since Orville Gibson's big innovation was to apply violin building techniques to the mandolin, why did it not occur to him to use a maple bridge similar to Red's design, which is very violin like? Or why didn't Lloyd Loar think of it either? I strongly suspect that the idea may have crossed both minds. How could it not have, since they were already borrowing so much from violin? But I bet the idea was quickly dismissed because it was thought that they wouldn't hold up under the tension of 8 steel string, as opposed to the gut violin strings of the time which were relatively low tension. With Red's experiments and others following in his footsteps it would seem that assumption, if made, was wrong.

[adkpiper]

why did it not occur to him to use a maple bridge similar to Red's design, which is very violin like? Or why didn't Lloyd Loar think of it either? I strongly suspect that the idea may have crossed both minds.

Good questions! I don't have any facts to go on, but for conjecture's sake:

- the maple bridge of violin-family instruments looks pretty different from a mandolin bridge, and a fiddle bridge design wouldn't be strong enough for the string tension of eight steel strings. Maybe it didn't occur to them to try a maple mando-style bridge. (unlikely)

- maple was unavailable. (extremely unlikely)

- they concluded that, in a retail environment where their instruments were being sold to intermediaries rather than direct to customers, the potential sonic benefits of a one-piece bridge were outweighed by the liabilities of creating instruments that were likely to have poor action after shipping and be harder to set up because of being one-piece bridges. Since their goal was to sell instruments, having ones that worked "right out of the box" would have been a legitimate priority compared to potential tone benefits. (more likely, although this is an argument against one-piece bridges, not against maple)

- they tried it and found that customers just didn't buy mandolins with maple bridges. (possible but I have no evidence either way)

- they thought about it and concluded that they were already changing the designs enough that they didn't want to rock the boat more, and then forgot about it. (possible)

- they didn't like the sound of maple bridges. (possible)

- they didn't like the look of maple and couldn't find a stain that they liked that was colorfast when rubbed by sweaty players' hands. (possible)

- they thought of it, tried it, liked it, but wanted to make sure those of us coming after them in the lutherie line would have some exciting discoveries left to make for ourselves, so they hushed up all evidence of their maple bridge innovations and buried them in the secret vault along with all the other discoveries that the world has yet to see. (not technically possible to rule out)

I've got my money on either "didn't think of it", "not commercially successful", or "didn't like the tone".

[multidon]

My money's on "They didn't think maple would stand up to high tension steel strings."

Also I'm not saying they are ugly exactly but the unfinished white wood sticks out like a sore thumb on the pictures I've seen especially with a dark sunburst. So maybe it was a cosmetic consideration.

Adjustability probably has nothing to do with it since Gibson used one piece bridges on their A's in the teens.

[Jim Garber]

Interesting... I have an old Weymann mandolin-banjo and it had the original bridge on it. I am not sure if any other maker at that time designed bridges like this for banjos or mandolins.

[Red Henry]

Jim, in the Mandolin cafe files there are some pictures of very early Orville Gibson mandolins with bridges reminiscent of this one. They show that Orville was experimenting with them early on, but the "suits" who took over the company reverted, for I suppose for cheapness in production, to an ebony-slab bridge. This was a pity; with about 45 seconds shop work per bridge, they could have considerably enhanced the sound of all Gibson mandolins.

Here's a link to my experiment modifying two plain Gibson-style "slab" ebony bridges for better sound:

http://www.murphymethod.com/index.cf...t&contentId=94

Interesting... I have an old Weymann mandolin-banjo and it had the original bridge on it. I am not sure if any other maker at that time designed bridges like this for banjos or mandolins.

[Red Henry]

Photos of this 1902 or 1904 instrument, for example, reveal that Orville himself may have discovered the acoustic properties of a properly-designed (not solid-slab) bridge:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/2506

This mandolin (from c.1902) also has a fairly elaborate bridge, even with small wings, although one does not know if Mr. Gibson had discovered their acoustic advantages:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/2526

...and the bridge on this 1902 or 1904 mandolin also is a real eye-opener:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/2651

The businessmen who eliminated Mr. Gibson and took over the company may have regarded these elaborate bridges as useless decoration, but in changing the mandolin line to plain "slab" bridges, they lost a great deal of acoustic potential.

[Jim Adwell]

Photos of this 1902 or 1904 instrument, for example, reveal that Orville himself may have discovered the acoustic properties of a properly-designed (not solid-slab) bridge:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/2506

This mandolin (from c.1902) also has a fairly elaborate bridge, even with small wings, although one does not know if Mr. Gibson had discovered their acoustic advantages:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/2526

...and the bridge on this 1902 or 1904 mandolin also is a real eye-opener:
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/2651

The businessmen who eliminated Mr. Gibson and took over the company may have regarded these elaborate bridges as useless decoration, but in changing the mandolin line to plain "slab" bridges, they lost a great deal of acoustic potential.

Drilling holes between the courses in a bridge is a good way to reduce the mass of the bridge while keeping the strength of a solid beam, perhaps to compensate for the added mass of the decoration on the bridge wings. Orville may have been influenced by the decorative bridge wings on guitars of the time.

[Jim Garber]

Orville may have been influenced by the decorative bridge wings on guitars of the time.

...or perhaps influenced by the decorative curls at the end of his moustache...

[Jim Adwell]

...or perhaps influenced by the decorative curls at the end of his moustache...

He looks a lot like John Astin as Gomez Addams in that picture...

[High Lonesome Valley]

Thanks, Bluetickhound (coon hunter?). I'm a newbie here and appreciate the redundancy, if any.

I'm gonna try this on my OM flat top and, additionally hollow it out to see what happens. I hollowed out the non adjustable bridge on my Gypsy Jazz guitar, and the adjustable on my big box electric jazz guitar, and it made all the difference.

[Red Henry]

Right! Having that relief in the body of the bridge can make a huge difference. Let us know how the sound turns out.

I'm gonna try this on my OM flat top and, additionally hollow it out to see what happens. I hollowed out the non adjustable bridge on my Gypsy Jazz guitar, and the adjustable on my big box electric jazz guitar, and it made all the difference.

[Bluetickhound]

Not a coon hunter, just a (very disgruntled) Tennessee fan... Smokey is our mascot and he's a bluetick.

Can't wait to hear how the bridge works out on the OM!

[fscotte]

The idea that a bridge with less mass equals more sustain isn't my experience. At least on guitars, the heavier fossilized ivory saddles had much longer sustain than a typical bone saddle.