Look what I found

[John Uhrig]

Found these on a nameless internet auction site Now I just need to learn how to play Duo Style

[Jim Garber]

Its not quite as hard as it looks. The Pettine books should get you there.

[MLT]

Reading this as I have my Saturday morning coffee I have to ponder, "how come I never find these little nuggets when I search nameless auction sites or garage and estate sales?"

[John Uhrig]

Well I think that I just got lucky. I've had the Duo Primer for about 6 months but I just happened to find the other one very late in the evening. It was "newly listed" and a buy it now with a good price.

[Christopher Stetson]

Wonderful find, John. If they're out of copyright, is there any chance they could be scanned and shared?

[Jim Garber]

I bought my first set of these from a member of the Pettine family many years ago. I am not sure about copyrights but I seem to recall that GP renewed copyright at some time. The folks in the Providence Mandolin Orchestra had been in touch with the family. Bear in mind that this thread dates from almost a year ago.

[John Uhrig]

The Duo Primer is copyright 1909 for all countries and the Duo Style is 1900 with International copyright secured. As Jim said, if the Pettine family has renewed the copyright, it might not be in the public domain for sometime to come.
I suggest to keep looking on the most wonderful internet bidding sites to find copies of these.
btw Jim...It isn't as hard as it looks. I have been making progress on it

[margora]

Pettine's son, Joseph, renewed the copyright in 1967, so I believe the Pettine method is not yet in the public domain.

FWIW, if I were teaching students today to play duo style or studying it myself, I would not use the Pettine method. I know the different volumes very well, and I know his duo style arrangements. I can think of none of the arrangements that I would perform for a modern audience (they are, in other words, very out of date). There are excellent exercises to learn duo style in Marga Wilden-Husgen's book, "Technical Studies for Mandolin" (German, only), available from Trekel. If I wanted to use an early 20th century method for some reason, the Calace method is better, in my opinion, for this purpose -- and Calace's various pieces in duo style, such as the Preludes or any of the easier pieces, can easily be programmed into a modern recital.

[Martin Jonas]

Pettine's son, Joseph, renewed the copyright in 1967, so I believe the Pettine method is not yet in the public domain.

Depends on the country. In the US, all copyrights prior to 1923 are deemed to have expired, regardless of renewal and regardless of the date of death of the authory (Link). Other countries have other laws, and in the EU it's life+70 years. As Pettine died in 1966 (49 years ago), it will be another 21 years. In countries with life+50 years terms (Canada, for example), the methods will be public domain next year.

Martin

[EdHanrahan]

I can think of none of the arrangements that I would perform for a modern audience (they are, in other words, very out of date).

Now you have me wondering, just what would make such an arrangement "out of date"?

Probably like many of us non-classical folks, I'm assuming that "duo style" means a second mandolin playing in harmony to the lead, maybe with some backup chords and/or counter-melodies or fills. Or is that exactly the point of the "out of date" comment?

I suspect that a sentence of two would educate many of us. Thanks in advance!

[Martin Jonas]

Probably like many of us non-classical folks, I'm assuming that "duo style" means a second mandolin playing in harmony to the lead, maybe with some backup chords and/or counter-melodies or fills. Or is that exactly the point of the "out of date" comment?

No, duo style is a very specific classical technique involving two parts being played on one single mandolin simultaneously. This is done by combining a tremolo melody line with interspersed staccato bass notes. In order for the bass notes to be in time, you need a precisely-measured tremolo, which is at the heart of duo-style technique.

For a more modern treatment of this and other classical techniques, check out the brand new book by August Watters (Link) -- I'm waiting for my copy, but knowing August and seeing the list of topics, this should be very good indeed!

Martin

[Peewee]

Here's an example of duo-style.

[Beanzy]

Duo style is playing two voices at the same time on one instrument. There are trio style passages in some piece too.
It's done by slight of hand technique that performs little pickpocketing tricks to steal the tune out from under a continuing accompanying line or passing chords. It's a very effective smoke and mirrors technique which seems to have been advanced in the U.S. to a high degree an reimported to Europe following that.

(What they said -slow typist here)

[margora]

"Depends on the country. In the US, all copyrights prior to 1923 are deemed to have expired, regardless of renewal and regardless of the date of death of the authory (Link). Other countries have other laws, and in the EU it's life+70 years. As Pettine died in 1966 (49 years ago), it will be another 21 years. In countries with life+50 years terms (Canada, for example), the methods will be public domain next year."

I agree with Martin. It will be some time before the Pettine Method is public domain in Europe or the US but it will be very soon in Canada, so presumably someone will post the method to IMSLP next year, with the obligatory caution on downloading.

"Probably like many of us non-classical folks, I'm assuming that "duo style" means a second mandolin playing in harmony to the lead, maybe with some backup chords and/or counter-melodies or fills"

That would be incorrect. Duo-style is performed by one mandolin, where the melody is played with tremolo, and the accompaniment is staccato (or tremolo-staccato as it is called in Germany). It is standard technique for classical mandolinists at an advanced level. The modern master in the US is Evan Marshall, whose method book on duo style is excellent (although incomplete, in the sense that it would not fully prepare someone to play Calace).

"Now you have me wondering, just what would make such an arrangement "out of date"?"

Out of date in terms of thematic material (unless one thinks "Home Sweet Home" makes a good concert item today) and of their period in terms of the arrangement (harmony, for example, very simple). The duo style arrangements in the method were meant for amateurs and they emphasized sentimental folk tunes, some popular items of the day, Civil War songs, Stephen Foster, and the like. Of his concert style arrangements, there is one in manuscript which was published in the Mandolin Quarterly that includes as one of the themes (as I recall, I don't have it handy) "Old Black Joe". I don't think one should perform this in public today. It is debatable whether one should perform the concert arrangement of "My Old Kentucky Home" (which is quite different from the version published in the method). I wouldn't, but perhaps someone doing the mandolin-equivalent of early music would.

I have, as well, played Pettine's original works, and would also not program any of them today.

[Rush Burkhardt]

Watching Evan's excellent rendition of Ave Maria makes me think that playing Duo Style hurts!

[Martin Jonas]

"Depends on the country. In the US, all copyrights prior to 1923 are deemed to have expired, regardless of renewal and regardless of the date of death of the authory (Link). Other countries have other laws, and in the EU it's life+70 years. As Pettine died in 1966 (49 years ago), it will be another 21 years. In countries with life+50 years terms (Canada, for example), the methods will be public domain next year."

I agree with Martin. It will be some time before the Pettine Method is public domain in Europe or the US but it will be very soon in Canada, so presumably someone will post the method to IMSLP next year, with the obligatory caution on downloading.

Robert: my reading of the link I gave is that "life + 70 years" applies in the US only to works published since 1978. Works published before 1923 are out of copyright, regardless of author's date of death. That would mean the Pettine Methods that John has (published 1900 and 1907) are already out of copyright in the US now, but not in Europe.

Martin

[margora]

Hi Martin, the edition I own, in seven volumes, was reprinted in 1967 by Joseph Pettine from the 4th edition of the original method. Two of the volumes indicate a copyright date of 1967, which was presumably filed by Joseph Pettine shortly after his father's death. The publisher is the Rhode Island Music Co. (which I believe Joseph inherited from his father). There are differences in external format (e.g. the cover) from the originals. Volume 6 of my edition has text in English, French, Italian, and German; I do not know if this is also true of the original. Bottom line: I am inferring that the edition I own is, in fact, still under US copyright. I agree with you that this may not be true of editions prior to the 4th. The 1900 version is the first edition, for example. Pettine had only one son (his wife died in childbirth); I do not know if Joseph had descendants.

[EdHanrahan]

Martin, Eoin, & Robert: Thank you!
Your thoughtful responses have probably educated far beyond just me.

As to Evan Marshall's "Ave Maria": WOW!!