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Thread: What is a Celtic mandolin?

  1. #126
    Registered User seankeegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    I agree with the above statements; can be played on any type of mandolin. There's great players playing flatbacks - Declan Corey is an amazing player and able to take on the loudest session with his trusty flat back:



    https://youtu.be/2EvJBGSahu8

    I've always been a paddlehead fan, but recently I've really gotten into long necked ovals and find them great for playing Irish music, but to each their own.

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    Last edited by seankeegan; Mar-07-2019 at 7:39am.

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  3. #127

    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?


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  5. #128
    Registered User seankeegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Irish traditional music played on a bowl back mandolin:

    http://claddaghrecords.com/index.php...mandoline.html

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  7. #129
    Registered User seankeegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Here's an interesting clip, Barney McKenna and John Shehan of the Dubliners with a mandolin duet:

    https://www.rte.ie/archives/2015/111...mandolin-duet/

    Barney's playing a Framus and John is playing an A5.

    And then this video:

    https://youtu.be/eU8GC8Foyvk?t=2491

    Barney's playing a bowlback and Eamon Campbell is playing an A5.
    Last edited by seankeegan; Mar-08-2019 at 10:13am.

  8. #130
    Registered User Brian560's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Celtic Mandolin refers to a style of instrument and not a type of music. It doesn’t suggest that it is the best or only type of mandolin for Celtic music. It is just a type that is different from Gibson’s, or bowl backs, or any of the other types of instrument.

  9. #131
    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by OneChordTrick View Post
    Probably waiting until we have a definitive answer so as not to confuse the issue by posting a picture of a “wrong” one

    In the meantime here’s mine:



    As I play mainly Celtic music I think it qualifies.
    Sure is a pretty one! Love the shape and color. Thanks for showing it to us.
    Purr more, hiss less. Barn Cat Mandolins Photo Album

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  11. #132
    Registered User seankeegan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Nigel, do you have any of this style of mandolin in Ireland? I'd love to try this, it looks beautiful.

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  12. #133
    Registered User Brian560's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    That is a nice mandolin. I also was admiring its choice of top wood. I like a lot of the mandolins that are called Celtic, both carved and flat tops.

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  14. #134

    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by seankeegan View Post
    Nigel, do you have any of this style of mandolin in Ireland? I'd love to try this, it looks beautiful.

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    To be honest, I can't remember what I've sold that has ended up in Ireland. So I can't really help you there.

    I made quite a few of those A shaped mandolins, but in recent years most folk have ordered the onion shaped ones. Truth is, I designed the onion shaped ones to sound as much like a shallot shaped A model as possible.

    Most folk after a new "Celtic' mandolin want one shaped like a Sobell. But I prefer the ones that sound a bit more like a Gibson in the bottom end. So my Celtic F and Celtic O look how folk expect it to look, but sound more like an American mandolin, which in general, I prefer the sound of.

    All my mandolins have some of that American woodiness in the bass and a bit of that "Celtic" sparlke in the treble. It suits the music well.

    If you're after prices, you'd need to email me via my site so I can send you a € price list.

    Nigel
    www.nkforsterguitars.com

  15. #135

    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?



    Here is one from 10 years ago. Same design.

  16. #136
    Registered User Randi Gormley's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Oh, well, if we're posting pictures of "celtic" mandolins, here's mine:
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    --------------------------------
    1920 Lyon & Healy bowlback
    1923 Gibson A-1 snakehead
    1952 Strad-o-lin
    1983 Giannini ABSM1 bandolim
    2009 Giannini GBSM3 bandolim
    2011 Eastman MD305

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  18. #137
    Celtic Strummer Matt DeBlass's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    It has always seemed to me, and this thread has kind of reinforced, that while the Bluegrass world tends to be dominated by the F5, there's a wide variety of mandolin styles seen in Celtic music.

    And that Celtic F Mr. Forster makes seems like the type of thing I'd use if I were in the market, it's a wonderful sounding and looking instrument.

    In the mean time, I'll say my "Celtic mandolin" is the one I use to play stuff between harp tunes.

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    If I call my guitar my "axe," does that mean my mandolin is my hatchet?

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  20. #138
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    I've always liked the sound of harp with mandolin and actually feel it's not a sound we hear enough.
    David A. Gordon

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  22. #139
    Celtic Strummer Matt DeBlass's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    I've always liked the sound of harp with mandolin and actually feel it's not a sound we hear enough.
    If I could figure out how to play both of them at the same time I'd have quite the show! I don't get to play the harp with groups often enough, but when I do it's always fun to hear how it fits in (or doesn't, sometimes). I've gotten to do some local recording work where it's been in with guitar and hammered dulcimer, that's a fun combination of timbres
    If I call my guitar my "axe," does that mean my mandolin is my hatchet?

    Breedlove Quartz KF
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  23. #140
    Registered User Al Trujillo's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Perhaps this link about 'Celtic music' may be better posted someplace else but when I started reading it I thought of this thread. Anyway, I thought this article about the genre itself was enlightening.

    http://slowplayers.org/whats-in-a-name/

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  25. #141
    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Trujillo View Post
    Perhaps this link about 'Celtic music' may be better posted someplace else but when I started reading it I thought of this thread. Anyway, I thought this article about the genre itself was enlightening.

    http://slowplayers.org/whats-in-a-name/
    A thoughtful, and fairly accurate article, Al. It covers the same topic that I was making on another thread, post #13: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...estions-Needed.
    However, I question the author's saying that Irish music became popular thirty years ago -- perhaps that's when he discovered irish music, but a great many people outside Ireland were listening to and playing Irish music since at least the beginning of the 20th century (e.g., think of Tommy Makem and the Clancy's, The Irish Rovers, and the Dubliners in the 60's, and the Chieftains, Planxty, and Boys of the Lough in the 70's, or John McCormack in the 1910's and 20's. Those interested in the power and meaning of words, might want to read George Orwell's essay,"Politics and The English Language" (available online). However, I realize that a great many musicians love music, and don't care about labelling and such.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  26. #142

    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    I started listening to Irish music over 50 years ago.

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  27. #143
    Registered User Al Trujillo's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    I wonder if his intent was that Irish music became 'mainstream' and thus more popular. Pre-internet there was vinyl and radio and before that music probably moved slow as cultures were uprooted and moved across oceans. I agree that its been there for much longer than he states in the article but there are those, like me perhaps, who only discovered it just a few years ago. Does Flogging Molly count as proper Irish music??

  28. #144
    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Trujillo View Post
    I wonder if his intent was that Irish music became 'mainstream' and thus more popular. Pre-internet there was vinyl and radio and before that music probably moved slow as cultures were uprooted and moved across oceans. I agree that its been there for much longer than he states in the article but there are those, like me perhaps, who only discovered it just a few years ago. Does Flogging Molly count as proper Irish music??
    If that's his point, he's wrong. Irish bands toured the east coast of the US and Canada since at least the early 20th century. My family in Atlantic Canada had numerous Irish jigs and reels in its collective repertoire (though we only have a touch of Irish in us), as did our neighbours. We called such music "old time" or "fiddle music", and not "Irish." It was from a fiddling neighbour in Windsor, Ontario, 2,000 kilometres away, that I first heard "Paddy On The Turnpike." There were various times when Irish music became mainstream in North America during the 20th century. Though I'd never heard of them, Tommy Makem and the Clancy's were very popular in the 50's and 60's folk revival. When I move around Ottawa, I meet numerous people, mainly over 55, but young folks too, who own their records and song books, and assume that every English, Scottish, or North American song in their repertoire is "Irish." These people also play and sing their songs. In the mid-70's, the Chieftains were introduced to mainstream audiences outside the British Isles, by playing the soundtrack to the popular movie, "Barry Lyndon." There were a great number of other well-known groups, both vocal and instrumental, influencing North American music. In the early 70's groups playing in their styles, tended to call themselves "Irish," though their repertoires were often wider. By the late 70's, the term "Celtic" was replacing Irish. In fact, by the early 80's, I was getting tired of hearing so much "Celtic music " in Canada. At that time, "Celtic" musicians didn't tend to play the old Canadian repertoire of Irish fiddle tunes, but preferred the style of Counties Kerry, Sligo and Mayo. I'd certainly never heard of a "slip jig" before this time, or thought of "polkas" as Irish music. One writer claims that, in the 1970's, the Scottish multi-instrumentalist, Robin Williamson, formerly of the Incredible Sting Band, coined the term "Celtic" as it is used to describe music today, though the Breton harpist, Alain Stivell, must have used "Celtic" about the same time. All of which goes to show how complex such matters are. We could probably have had a similar discussion about blues, bluegrass, or Balkan music, to name just a few -- and that's just getting up to the letter "B.".

    Is the American band, "Flogging Molly," Irish? You'd have to ask the Irish what they think. (They aren't claiming the American song, "The Unicorn," by the way) I noticed someone on the Cafe has posted an arrangement of "My Way." It was written by Paul Anka, who was born and raised here in Ottawa (believe it or not, I live on Paul Anka Drive), but may well be an American citizen. It was popularized by Frank Sinatra, and improved by Sid Vicious. What culture do we attribute it to? I'd just call it "pop culture". However, if the Pogues do a version, someone will soon be singing it as a "Celtic song" at your local session.
    Last edited by Ranald; Mar-15-2019 at 1:26pm.
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

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  30. #145
    Registered User Al Trujillo's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    I guess what's important is that the music of Ireland, however fine its hair is split is a lot of fun to play. I remain facetious about Fogging Molly as I believe their roots are in Los Angeles.

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  32. #146
    Registered User Ranald's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    To further complicate matters:
    An Irish man in my city, who was brought up surrounded by traditional music, and came to Canada as an adult, sings the traditional Irish song, "The Wearing of The Green," sean nos style. He says that he first learned the song from Johnny Cash (who, I assume, didn't sing it sean nos style).
    Robert Johnson's mother, describing blues musicians:
    "I never did have no trouble with him until he got big enough to be round with bigger boys and off from home. Then he used to follow all these harp blowers, mandoleen (sic) and guitar players."
    Lomax, Alan, The Land where The Blues Began, NY: Pantheon, 1993, p.14.

  33. #147
    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is a Celtic mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ranald View Post
    A thoughtful, and fairly accurate article, Al. It covers the same topic that I was making on another thread, post #13: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...estions-Needed.
    However, I question the author's saying that Irish music became popular thirty years ago -- perhaps that's when he discovered irish music, but a great many people outside Ireland were listening to and playing Irish music since at least the beginning of the 20th century (e.g., think of Tommy Makem and the Clancy's, The Irish Rovers, and the Dubliners in the 60's, and the Chieftains, Planxty, and Boys of the Lough in the 70's, or John McCormack in the 1910's and 20's.
    Indeed, and to the point of this thread, some of them were playing the music on mandolins!

    Seán Keane, the fiddler for The Chieftans, mentions in their autobiography that as a child he had an uncle who was famous for playing traditional music on mandolin. This would have been in the Dublin area, somewhere in the 1920's or 1930's, based on Seán's age.

    Here's an interesting quote from the liner notes of a Mick Moloney CD:

    "The mandolin, a direct descendant of the lute, has been in Irish music since the turn of the century. Mick points out that (Mike) Flanagan started on it before he switched to banjo, and Barney McKenna’s and piper Paddy Keenan’s fathers were both mandolin players."

    Paddy Keenan (Bothy Band) was born in 1950, so his mandolin-playing father might have started then, but probably played earlier.

    The Flanagan referred to above is Michael Flanagan of the Flanagan Brothers, an Irish-American band active in New York City in the 1920's. It seems he was playing mandolin sometime in the period 1915-1920 when he switched to banjo.

    It's interesting to speculate about what kind of mandolins these players were using as far back as the 1920's and 1930's. Possibly Italian bowl backs in Ireland? Living in NYC, Mike Flanagan might have started on an early Gibson. Or it could have been an Italian mandolin with such a large Italian-American community in the city.

    Whatever they were using back then, it worked for the music. So I think this illustrates rather nicely why there is no specific design required, and not even the instruments used by the 1960's Folk Revival bands should be seen as some kind of template. Mandolin playing in Irish music goes back at least 40 or 50 years earlier than that. If we were applying strict Bluegrass-style rules for appropriate instruments based on the history of the genre, we'd have to do some deep digging on what these 1920's mandolins were. And then we'd probably all be playing Italian bowl back mandolins.

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