Musical rules/suggestions for medleys

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-06-2014, 7:59pm

Having recently seen a guy at a session (an older guy, playing banjo) reading tunes off an iPad, I agree with the concern about technology creeping into sessions (my wife says that texting is ruining sessions), but I don't agree with the fear of creating new, possibly helpful technology just because of the potential for abuse.

**journeybear** · Sep-06-2014, 9:04pm

Or misuse. All the tools at our disposal are just that - tools, created with the idea in mind (supposedly, hopefully, originally) of making things easier in some way for people using them. Ultimately one still has to know the songs and how to play them, which all the technology available can't teach you, but can help you learn. I've run into people who are overly reliant on whatever new gadget they have acquired, and are losing sight of their own experience.

The singer in one of my bands showed up this winter with a tablet, which she attached to her mike stand, to display the lyrics so she wouldn't flub them. She hadn't practiced enough with this, or didn't have it set up right, or hadn't checked the lyrics she had downloaded from websites for errors, or hadn't put them in alphabetical or some other kind of order, or some combination of these factors, because the overall effect was a general slowing down, too much time between songs being spent dialing up the next one. I understand the attraction to use devices like this, and if you have them all customized and optimized, and have spent time with them so your operation of them during a show is swift and easy, they can be very helpful, indeed. But if you aren't ready to go with your gizmo, you're better off with your memory. At least when you're singing and looking right at the audience rather than a tablet, you'll stand a better chance of developing a rapport, which is elusive, often hard to achieve and more easily lost. That's more important than being spot-on perfect, anyway, IMHO.

**Bertram Henze** · Sep-07-2014, 7:49am

I happen to like dramatic transitions from Major to Dorian, such as Calliope House/Lilting Banshee (D->Ador) or Lord McDonald/Ballinasloe Fair (G->Ador). Fitting with the moods of these modes, I also like to call them "sober" transitions.

...as opposed to "dreamy" transitions, which all go from Mixolydian to Mixolydian (aka "mad major") - once you've reached the nirvana of Mixo, waking up into another mode is bound to be unpleasant. A good example is Sean sa Cheo/High Reel.

Simple enough parameters for that generator.

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-07-2014, 8:57am

Ya, good idea.
(But will it start getting complicated? I've been told that programs that generate random results based on lots of rules are quite complex to create.)

In order to keep the order of going around the cycle of 5ths, to keep the feeling of lifting, "key" would need to be defined as the number of flats or sharps, instead of a note-name.

So, we divide the afore-mentioned "key" category into two: "key signature" and "mode" -- e.g. what was "D major" in the "key" column is now "##" in the "key signature" column, and "major" in the "mode" column.

The key signature rule: "A maxmimum of two of the same key signatures"? I'm not sure we really need that -- maybe we just need the old "go in order" rule.
The mode rule: "Don't have two of the same modes in a row".

Makes sense? I'm not 100% sure -- I love the sound of E minor going into G major, but that's going backwards in the order...

**Bertram Henze** · Sep-07-2014, 9:35am

To play these tunes with feeling, you've got to have an ear for how they are supposed to sound. Then, you are well past the painting-by-numbers phase and automatically have an ear for how to combine them and don't need a generator any more. Only then, as kind of a-posteriori theory, you might set up parameters for the very generator you don't need.

A long time ago, I programmed a generator for triplets of shirt, tie and suspenders that would go together out of a virtual closet repository, based on max. number of colors, fabrics and patterns. It was a demo for MDA software design and did its job for that, but by the time it worked I could pick my clothing blind without the generator.

**Bertram Henze** · Sep-07-2014, 9:40am

One combination that never goes, by the way, is tunes that are too similar. Like Cooley's Reel and Pidgeon on the Gate. Apart from the boredom, the transit is incredibly hard to do and might lead to mixed versions and derailment from one into the other.

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-07-2014, 9:45am

Well, the question, I think, isn't "Do I need it?" -- the question is "Would this be fun?", and ya, I think it would be.

Sitting around a dining-room table with a few musician friends, playing with it, seeing if the sets are cool or not, seeing how well we can go from tune to tune -- sounds like a fun evening to me.

It wouldn't be any more indispensable than most apps, and it would be as fun as most apps.
If it were available, I'd certainly give it a try, and I'd most likely enjoy doing so.

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-07-2014, 9:48am

The program's rules for generating sets wouldn't allow Cooley's and Pigeon on the Gate to be in the same set.

**mandocrucian** · Sep-07-2014, 10:31am

The context of the OP's question was never clear. Was this regarding sets/medleys for a ITM (how militantly hardcore, or progressive, and what level of player proficiency?) session(s) or was it for the OP's "band" or regular player friends? BIG difference!

The "standard key" is fine for a session of strangers - if they know the tune, they probably (can) play it that "standard" key even if they play it a different key with their band or out of chjoice. Yes, certain tunes are much more playable in certain keys on specific instruments, which is probably why doing it in that key(s) became the norm in the first place. (or if transposed too high, or lower, puts parts of the tune out of the register of some instruments) Some of the ITM instruments (keyless flute, concertina, pipes,..) are somewhat semi-diatonic; they are suited to some of the keys but become more difficult (or possibly impossible) to play in others.

Personally, I prefer the sound of some tunes ("Sailor's Hornpipe" in Bb rather than G) or ("Fisher's Hornpipe in F rather than D --- but F actually was originally the standard key) in an un-standard key.

The notion that "The Kesh Jig" is a G tune (only) is rather narrow-minded (at the least). It's a simple tune and playing it in D or A should not be a big hurdle for an intermediate>above player. I use it as an exercise tune on metal flute (capable of playing in all 12 keys); the tune is in my head so my fingers must follow my ear in any new key. So besides the initial keys of D and G, I'll also put it into E and Eb (work some of those other keys/levers/fingerings), F and A.

Newer "composed" tunes seem to have a lot more flexibility as to key...since it is "NOT traditional" it seems that moving the tune to a different key for playability or other reasons isn't a major transgression. (Of course, not being trad, may still be enough to earn the wrath of the genre Nazis). John Kirkpatrick's "Jump At The Sun" is often played in Dm, Em, Am, and Gm. (I don't recall what JK's original key was - I'd have to put on my copy of his first LP and check.)

"Jump At The Sun" goes nicely with "The Kesh". And if you have the flexibility to play either tune in multiple keys, there are a lot of combinations.

TKJ (G) > JATS (Em) : Major key to the relative minor.
TKJ(G) > JATS (Fm) : Also good
TKJ (G) > JATS (Ebm....oooh scary! ): Cold stop at end of TKJ is more effective than a walkdown lick

or you can go up for the second tune:
TKJ (G) > JATS (Am) > TKJ (A) - returning to The Kesh in a different key
or
TKJ (G) > JATS (Bbm)

Or put TKJ into moveable keys if you prefer JATS in a specific key
TKJ (E) > JATS (Dm)
TKJ (F) > JATS (Dm)
TKJ (E) > JATS (Gm)
etc.

And the only way you are going to find out what works for you sonically, is to try stuff out . This is the original computer program, using the original "computer" (your brain). Otherwise, you're gonna start programming your Band In A Box to playback the tunes in different key combination to audit them sonically. (Too much hassle, imo, and devoid of any/all of the benefits to your brain>ear>finger circuitry of transposing the tunes on your instrument).

As I said in the beginning of this post, context is a huge factor. If you are more of a beginner, or a hardcore ITM type, and this is for the an ITM session/jam setting, adhere to the standard key. But if those factors aren't that applicable, ask yourself if the "standard key" response isn't just laziness. (Mandolin is not a semi-diatonic instrument, it is fully chromatic, capable of playing tunes in EVERY key signature - if/when you do your technical pushups.)

Thank you!
"Dark Lord of the Mandolin"
aka "He-Who-Must-Not-Ne Named"

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-07-2014, 11:40am

If you want to play the Kesh in D or F or even Ab, enter them into your set generator as "Kesh G", "Kesh D", "Kesh F" etc. (Duh?)

If your glass is half-empty, then of course a set generator isn't an adequate replacement for the human brain.
If your glass is half-full, a set generator is at best a useful tool for practising transitions on-the-fly.

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-07-2014, 12:01pm

Originally Posted by AZmando

Since these celtic tunes are usually pretty short, it's common to put a few of 'em together in medleys. When we put together tunes for medleys, what are some common rules?

I know they should sound good together, but what about the keys? Of course, they are often just two or three tunes all in the same key. I also know from learning a bit about classic piano ragtime that stepping up a fourth sounds good. But that's about ALL I know. I'm curious about other rules and ideas - what about minor keys for example?

I guess I'm looking for some do's and don'ts here. Thanks in advance!

The OP is taking a left-brained approach to building sets, and trying to design a set generator would be exactly that.

Why all the criticism? If you don't want to think that way, then don't, but don't tell him he's wrong to try looking at it that way if he (as I do) finds it interesting.

**foldedpath** · Sep-07-2014, 12:42pm

Originally Posted by mandocrucian

As I said in the beginning of this post, context is a huge factor. If you are more of a beginner, or a hardcore ITM type, and this is for the an ITM session/jam setting, adhere to the standard key. But if those factors aren't that applicable, ask yourself if the "standard key" response isn't just laziness. (Mandolin is not a semi-diatonic instrument, it is fully chromatic, capable of playing tunes in EVERY key signature - if/when you do your technical pushups.)[/I]

Now waitaminnit.... the "standard key" for tunes one usually hears in ITM isn't just about "laziness." It's about fingering efficiency, which frees up the ability to articulate (ornament) the tunes.

Irish, Scottish, and Cape Breton fiddlers very seldom get out of first position, even if they have the technical ability to do so, in other genres. In the "standard session keys," the tunes fall easily and logically under your fingers in first position on fiddle. Same thing on mandolin. With efficient fingering and the frequent use of open strings (anathema to Classical and Jazz players), one has more opportunity to do all the extra stuff; the twiddly bits of ornamentation that make Irish music sound Irish. You also have access to the open G and open D strings under the melody line as drones, or double-stops, which work best in the "traditional keys." No surprise there, as so much of the music was written on the fiddle, especially the later stuff.

It's much harder to ornament if you're playing out of closed positions further up the neck, and you lose the open string drones for double-stops. That's why a classically-trained fiddler like Kevin Burke plays almost 100% in first position... for the twiddly bits... even though he's perfectly capable of playing the tunes in any key.

Same thing on diatonic whistles and flutes. I can play (in theory) most of the ITM repertoire on my keyless D flute. Start moving out of the "standard keys" and not only can I not hit some of the notes, I can't use the cuts, rolls, taps, crans, and other twiddly bits that are easily done in the standard keys for the tunes. Well, I guess I could if I just bought a bunch more flutes in different diatonic keys, like whistle players do, but that can get expensive. And it's the reason why ITM folks tend to settle in on "standard keys."

Note also, that even when tunes are sometimes commonly played in more than one key, they're usually in keys that still fit well in first position. There are yet more reasons too, like the way Cape Breton fiddlers often favor playing in A mixolydian, not just because it's related to Scottish pipe tunes, but because they often write tunes where they vary the A part by shifting down an octave while still staying in first position (different fingering, but there are enough strings to do that on fiddle and mandolin).

Can the mandolin more easily move outside the standard keys than some of the older, more traditional instruments in ITM? Sure. Are we gaining something by doing that, or losing something?

So no, standard keys aren't about laziness. As a mandolin player, I think there are things to learn about why they're usually played in those keys, and I'm still learning. This isn't jazz, 'ya know.

**mandocrucian** · Sep-07-2014, 12:56pm

Now waitaminnit.... the "standard key" for tunes one usually hears in ITM isn't just about "laziness." It's about fingering efficiency, which frees up the ability to articulate (ornament) the tunes.

Read my post again. Paragraph 2.

**foldedpath** · Sep-07-2014, 1:18pm

Originally Posted by mandocrucian

Read my post again. Paragraph 2.

Okay, but what about my main point, that the standard keys facilitate ornamentation, and the use of drones. Being "much more playable" doesn't quite cover that, does it? Or to put it another way, is it even possible to play with the kind of ornamentation and drone effects one hears from first position players, further up the neck in closed position? Does anyone do that?

Actually, I think it was just the term "laziness" that got to me.

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-07-2014, 1:27pm

Originally Posted by mandocrucian

The notion that "The Kesh Jig" is a G tune (only) is rather narrow-minded (at the least). It's a simple tune and playing it in D or A should not be a big hurdle for an intermediate>above player. I use it as an exercise tune...

C'mon Niles, you shouldn't do this with every thread.

I had five or six years of intense jazz improv training in Philly, I can play any melody in any key on four or five instruments blah blah blah...

That isn't what the OP is asking, and that isn't what this thread is about.

**JeffD** · Sep-07-2014, 2:00pm

Originally Posted by mandocrucian

John Kirkpatrick's "Jump At The Sun" is often played in Dm, Em, Am, and Gm. (I don't recall what JK's original key was - I'd have to put on my copy of his first LP and check.)

I play Jump at the Sun, in Dm and Am. Two or three times in one key and two times in the other.

So this is another option, instead of changing tunes in a set, it is sometimes fun to change keys on the same tune. It adds lift without a moments disorientation as to emphasis or rhythm. It provides "the same thing only different."

**xiledscot** · Sep-07-2014, 2:59pm

“Ya, good idea.
(But will it start getting complicated? I've been told that programs that generate random results based on lots of rules are quite complex to create.)”

I have a friend who is an expert in Random Generators.
Here:- http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/...erator-with-Ja

So I think the answer is ........Ya ! But would it be fun? Well read through the article and if you understand it then the answer is certainly Ya ! Would it be too much Hassle for someone of normal capabilities .........you bet.

I think I will stick to what my ears are telling me.

Oh and by the way Bertram. 'Suspenders' have a completely different meaning in Scotland,but maybe you already knew that.

**zoukboy** · Sep-07-2014, 3:00pm

A big part of the fun of playing in a session is improvising tune transitions on the fly. A few ready made sets in a session is alright, especially if they are to help orient novices who have difficulty with making or thinking of tune transitions (and avoiding cases of that dreaded session malady tunus interruptus), but that really hasn't been the norm, and in many sessions if you propose playing a set (unless invited to "play a couple of your own") you are likely to be met with rolling eyes.

I think the playing of sets is a phenomenon that comes originally from ceili bands and then through the influence of commercial recordings and concert performances. The influence of both on the tradition is pretty substantial.

That said I think there are some guidelines (no rules) for choosing tune transitions that are satisfying:

First, learn a bunch of tunes

Second, check out the tunes that have key/mode transitions embedded within them, either as chord changes or as modulations between the parts (examples: "The Fermoy Lasses" E aeolian 1st part/G major 2md part; "Tripping Upstairs" D major 1st part/B aeolian 2nd part; "Jackie Small's Jig" E dorian 1st part/D major 2nd part; "Blarney Pilgrim" D mixolydian 1st part/G major 2nd part/D mixolydian 3rd part). These combinations reveal relationships between the modes (I to vi for major/aeolian; I to ii for major/dorian; I to v for major/mixolydian) that can easily be exploited for tune transitions, and the way these tunes transition between modes/parts are sometimes good models for what works between tunes.

Third, it's a good idea to learn the modes (Ionian [major], Dorian, Mixolydian, Aeolian [minor] for Irish traditional music) and how to harmonize them, and also the cadences that go with each. Such information helps one understand why certain transitions work harmonically, and there is always a harmonic dimension embedded in the tunes whether they are being accompanied with harmony or not.

FWIW, I will be doing a workshop on this at the O'Flaherty Irish Music Retreat in October: http://oflahertyretreat.org/

Cheers,

**Jim Bevan** · Sep-07-2014, 6:22pm

Originally Posted by zoukboy

A big part of the fun of playing in a session is improvising tune transitions on the fly. A few ready made sets in a session is alright, especially if they are to help orient novices who have difficulty with making or thinking of tune transitions (and avoiding cases of that dreaded session malady tunus interruptus), but that really hasn't been the norm, and in many sessions if you propose playing a set (unless invited to "play a couple of your own") you are likely to be met with rolling eyes.

Let's say you're the best Irish Trad fiddler in your town. You know 1000 tunes etc. You get a call from the next town over from one of those guys who hosts a session -- you know the type: he's by far the best Irish Trad player in his town, he knows it, and he controls his sessions, he leads every set, and others just try to keep up. He always hires a co-host, but this week the co-host can't make it, and that's why he's called you. You show up, and all night long, he's saying things (to just you) like "Ok, now we're going to play My Former Wife into The Four Courts into Waiting For Janet", and he expects you to make all the transitions as smoothly as he does. Could you do it? I couldn't, and I'd probably go home after and try to figure out how I could practise for such an event should it ever happen again.

I met my wife four years ago at a session that she was hosting (and still hosts, when she's not on tour with me. She's hosting one right now, actually, as I write this, but I'm not at home). It's the most organized session I've ever been to, with a real focus on sounding good for the "audience". There are about five or six co-hosts, they all get paid, I forget, the equivalent of $25 or $30 plus drinks. The paid musicians regularly have a quick discussion before each set, and then she announces to the whole group something like "Banish Misfortune Morrison's Kesh, three three three", and away they go. There are always a few cases of tunus interuptus from the "pros", but someone always manages to hold it together.

Ya, these are rare (or hypothetical) instances, 'cuz usually sessions involve people taking turns leading sets they've already practised, and everybody just drops out at the transitions and comes back in wherever (depending on their tastefulness), but still, I'd like to have a set generator just as another practise tool, just to be able to be more prepared for those on-the-fly don't-drop-out occasions. Wouldn't you?

I'm not trying to talk everybody into using one -- I'm just trying to talk someone into building one for me.

**DougC** · Sep-07-2014, 7:44pm

Originally Posted by zoukboy

First, learn a bunch of tunes

Third, it's a good idea to learn the modes (Ionian [major], Dorian, Mixolydian, Aeolian [minor] for Irish traditional music) and how to harmonize them, and also the cadences that go with each. Such information helps one understand why certain transitions work harmonically, and there is always a harmonic dimension embedded in the tunes whether they are being accompanied with harmony or not.

It is amazing how people, (like me...) can play for years an not know a thing about why tunes work, or don't work. Now I know a few things, and find it not only interesting, but much easier to put stuff together.

I had to laugh at the mechanical method proposed. It makes sense in a weird sort of way, but the hard way is the best my friends.

Actually the muse as you play is 'music theory from a gut level'. The theory gives words to the actions.

**Bertram Henze** · Sep-08-2014, 12:22am

Originally Posted by xiledscot

Oh and by the way Bertram. 'Suspenders' have a completely different meaning in Scotland,but maybe you already knew that.

The alternative option was to confuse the larger group here with "braces"...

**zoukboy** · Sep-08-2014, 10:05am