Musical rules/suggestions for medleys

[AZmando]

Since these celtic tunes are usually pretty short, it's common to put a few of 'em together in medleys. When we put together tunes for medleys, what are some common rules?

I know they should sound good together, but what about the keys? Of course, they are often just two or three tunes all in the same key. I also know from learning a bit about classic piano ragtime that stepping up a fourth sounds good. But that's about ALL I know. I'm curious about other rules and ideas - what about minor keys for example?

I guess I'm looking for some do's and don'ts here. Thanks in advance!

[Jim Garber]

I am not expert at ITM but the best medleys seem to be tunes in different keys and ones where there is some dramatic contrast. I don't think there is an actual rule than anyone follows. I know that a a major tune paired with one in a minor key can be quite nice.

[Jim Nollman]

our band always joins 3 tunes together, as a set, for playing contra dances. Each AABB fiddle tune will be played 3 times then we switch. If the caller decides to extend the dance extemporaneously, we simply keep playing the last of the 3 tunes.

Almost always, our fiddle player initially puts the three tunes together. She looks for certain rhythmic similarities. She likes to start low first (for instance key of G on fiddle or mandolin) then, secondly, D, and ends, thirdly, on the key of A or E.

There are a few other attributes we use to bind the sets together. We'll often start a dance with a particular set of "easy-to-play" reels, just to warm ourselves up to speed. So we made a set out of Possum Up Gumstump (key of G) into Hunting the Buffalo (D), to Shoofly (A).

We used to mix reels and jigs together in a single set. But a while back, the dancers complained, so now we keep the sets segregated as a reel set or a jig set. We make sets from tunes that work well together, and pay no attention to the country of origin. We do not play unison.

Importantly, there's also an indefinable dynamic that drives the most successful sets, where the syncopation and phrasing of each tune actually pushes the next tune into a "higher" realm. These only get joined together by the experience of playing the sets a lot. Someone will suggest that we try changing one tune in the set with another tune, because it will push the set better. If it works, we usually know it immediately. Currently, two of our favorite sets stand out for doing this exceedingly well. The first set is well known reels: Johnny Don't Get Drunk:::Buck Mountain::: Mason's Apron. The second set is jigs: Sarah's Jig:::Up the River:::Fair Jenny.

[JeffD]

One criteria is how easy it is to go from the end of one to the beginning of the next. If it feels smooth it will sound smooth.

[Jim Garber]

As Jim N. noted, it is a very different thing if you are playing for dancers or just for listening. I have worked with some callers who do ask for specific rhythms even ones that may emphasize a particular beat in a particular part to fit in with a specific dance.

[Randi Gormley]

I've occasionally heard of slip jigs into double jigs but not the other way around; most of the sets I know or play are single rhythms (all reels, all jigs, all slip jigs, all slides, all hornpipes); I know of one set by a fiddler friend of mine that goes slow air/strathspey/reel; the Coleman set (Tarbolton/Longford Collector/Sailor's Bonnet) are so well known they're seldom played separately; a lot of people like to either put same-named tunes together (New Copperplate/Old Copperplate; Father Kelly's I/Father Kelly's II; Ballydesmond Polka II/Ballydesmond Polka III) or make up sets by their name -- we play something we call "The Elopement Set" which starts with Haste to the Wedding, goes to Saddle the Pony and then to Off She Goes. I know someone who plays a "Murder" set which ends with "I buried my wife and danced on her grave" but I don't know the first two, alas.

[CelticDude]

I like to "sandwich" modes - major-minor-major or vice versa. Sometimes go from jigs into a reel (I've never gotten it to work reel into jig though). And I do go from 2 double jigs into a slip jig, as well as other combinations. There is probably theory about what keys go into what, but I don't know it, beyond going from from major to relative minor or other way. Also going up in key seems to work.

[Bren]

One of my best session friends believes that sets should go "up" at each change.
Her sets always sound great and irresistible - her favourite combo is D, G, A. An example would be : St Anne's Reel - Spootiskerry - Foxhunters (in A).

But really, whatever sounds good. What sounds great in one situation might not sound so great in another with different people.

One band I play in, a ceilidh band, has some quite "jarring" changes, like Mrs MacLeod in A then "irish version" in G, but they take a slight breath of silence between them and it really seems to kick the dancers along.

You can't really use silences in a session - other players tend to fill them - but you can get away with it in a band.

[Shelagh Moore]

I don't tend to go by any "rules" on this but, rather, put sets together, often on the fly, by what sounds pleasing to me in terms of tempo, key or contrast. It's my preference perhaps, but I tend to avoid "standard" sets in favour of spontaneity.

[Bren]

Spontaneity is the best, but one thing about familiar sets - you'll get more people joining in.

Quite annoying when a set builds up a head of steam only to quickly peter out into a weedy solo as the fiddler plays an obscure tune known only to him/her.

[DougC]

An example of a rhythmic similarity to make a set are the first two bars of Dunmore Lasses and Ships are Sailing reels.

Another aspect of making sets is that many tunes are of similar scale patterns like E Dorian and D Major.

[JeffD]

One of my best session friends believes that sets should go "up" at each change.
Her sets always sound great and irresistible - her favourite combo is D, G, A. An example would be : St Anne's Reel - Spootiskerry - Foxhunters (in A). .

This is a powerful way to organize a set. Dancers love it to because it seems to lift up when the tune changes.

In a session the banjo players may groan.

[mandocrucian]

You need to/should start to analyze medleys off of CDs which you particularly like. Write the details down in a notebook*: tune/key/meter/tempo .... You should start to notice the preferences of various bands/players regarding shifts in tempos, keys, and meter (different kinds of tunes - reels, hornpipe, jig, slip jig, march, air)

I always liked "the great Swarb's" (Dave Swarbrick) medleys on the Fairport Convention albums and on his own solo releases. He's probably a bit more adventurous in mixing up the various elements than many. I also like the way The High Level Ranters strung tunes together, especially in their classic Anderson/Gilfellon/Handle/Ross lineup of the early 70s; and also (accordionist) John Kirkpatrick too.

Ditto for early Boys of the Lough. And then there's The Bothy Band, Altan, Planxty, Patrick Street, Silly Wizard etc. (If you have trouble figuring out the keys of tunes cause the CD tracks are going just to fast for you, look up the tune(s) at The Session http://thesession.org/ )

Find medleys YOU like, and determine what is going on within those. And WHY do you like it?... modulation? going into minor, shift to a different type of tune for dramatic effect? tempo changes? (and of course, the actual tune selection!) multiple reasons? You need to have some reference examples, so you can try out tune combinations using those same type of ideas. This is another type of "pushups", and there's a world of difference between experimenting and coming up with combinations you like and simply following someone else's script. You follow a script and you aren't really thinking about the various aspects and the psychological effects (positive, neural, or negative) they have or don't have. You won't build musical muscle if you avoid the workouts (both physical and mental/analytical)

*example of some of Swarb's Fairport medleys:

Medley (on Liege & Lief)
Lark In The Morning (jig, D)/Rakish Paddy (reel, D)/ Foxhunter's Jig (D, slip jig 9/8)/Toss The Feathers (reel, D)

"Flatback Caper" medley (on Full House)
Susan Cooper (reel, G)/The Friar's Breeches" (jig, D)/ John Doonan's (slip jig G)/Carolan's Concerto (4/4, D)

"Dirty Linen" medley (on Full House)
Last Night's Fun (slip jig, D)/The Merry Blacksmith (reel, D)/Drops of Brandy (slip jig, D)/Poll Ha'penny (reel, A)

Medley (on Angel Delight)
Cuckoo's Nest (hornpipe D)/Hardiman The Fiddler (slip jig, D mix)/Papa Stoor (slip jig, B)

(on Rosie)
The Hen's March (D, medium tempo march)/The Fourposter Bed (D,very fast reel)

Niles H.


You may also want to go to The Session and do a search for discussions about medley construction over there, cause that seems to be a recurring subject and you'll find as much you can handle!

[whistler]

One criteria is how easy it is to go from the end of one to the beginning of the next. If it feels smooth it will sound smooth.

I think this is just as important as the key change. But it is usually possible (and permissible) to make small adjustments to the ending of a tune in order to make it flow better into the next tune. Sometimes it may be as simple as omitting a note or two, leaving a short gap; in other cases, it could involve changing a couple of notes, in a way that is barely noticeable - many players would do this without even knowing it.

The keys and modes that most Irish traditional tunes are in are such that most tune transitions would involve jumping up or down a 4th/5th, a whole tone, a minor 3rd (relative major/minor) - or no change at all - all of which are fairly 'pedestrian' changes. Of course, keeping the same root note, there is still the possiblity of changing mode (e.g. A minor/Dorian/Mixolydian/major). Once you bring in more unusual keys - e.g. C, F, Bb, E, F#m - there is the possibilty of jumps of a semitone (e.g. Bm to C), a major 3rd (F to A), even an augmented 4th (F to Bm). To my ear, they're all good. They might be surprising, but so long as there is some kind of melodic continuity, the listener won't know what's hit them.

[foldedpath]

One criteria is how easy it is to go from the end of one to the beginning of the next. If it feels smooth it will sound smooth.

Very important point there. My fiddler S.O. and I have fun putting together sets at home when we play together, sometimes things we want to introduce to the local session, and more often just sets we like to play that will never make it into a session.

It usually starts with finding a new tune, and then "what would go with this?" based on other tunes we know. We usually follow session conventions, like all-jigs, all-horpipes, or all-reels for Irish sessions, or march-strathspey-reels for Scottish/Cape Breton, but not always. The next pass is usually based on the mode (key); do we want another tune in the same mode, or a shift in feeling?

And then the final pass, the one that determines whether the next tune makes it or is discarded, is whether the change "flows" and can be fingered easily enough, like Jeff mentioned above.

Fiddlers hate jumping over a string if they can avoid it, so that's one criteria. Usually we can tell immediately if the shift works or not. Some tunes just slide perfectly into the next one, and others fight it. Maybe if you're deep enough into the music you can know if it will work in advance, just by running the tunes through your head. I've met musicians who seem to be able to do this, on the fly. For the two of us though, it's trial and error. Just try it and see if it works.

So of all the things discussed in this thread, I'd say this is probably the most important consideration: Does the next tune flow, with fairly easy fingering? Or is it a fight to get there?

Bands sometimes get around this with a "stop time" interval between tunes: a pause that lasts for just a second, and then blasting into the next tune. Bands like Solas do this frequently, and it can be very effective for tunes where the key change is more important than having a smooth note transition right at the beginning. But you can't do that in a session, or at least I've never heard it.

P.S. /begin pedant mode
Your mileage may vary, but I've never heard the word "Medley" used in this music. It's always a "Set" where I've heard or read about it.
/end pedant

[JeffD]

Something to avoid is grouping tunes by the name of the tune. This leads to some horrific combinations, the head of a zebra on the body of a hippo.

Case in point is Dancing Bear, followed by Barentanz. The change in rhythm will irritate dances and listeners alike.

[Jim Bevan]

I agree with the keys going up -- my sets often start in G and end in A-major.

Another "rule" I like to go by (it's my own rule, of course, I made it up) is having the first tune be a three-parter. (Maybe it's my classical background, where the first movement is usually longer and bigger-feeling than the other two or three movements.)

I also tend to go from obscure to well-known, just so everybody at a session can join in as it progresses.

If I had the computer chops, I'd invent a "set generator". I'd give all my tunes criteria like dance (reel, jig, etc), key, form (AABB, AB, AABBCC etc), and popularity. I'd give the program some rules, like "no more than one AB in a set", "obscure=>little-known=>well-known" or "little-known=>well-known=>horrendously-overplayed", etc. My simple interface would have two buttons: "Tunes", which would open up a window for inputting the tune criteria, and "Generate", which would display the groovy (or not) new Set Of The Day.

[journeybear]

I don't play a lot of this sort of music - and when I do I spend half the time playing catch-up - but I have some friends who do. Here are two sets from their album. In the first one, both tunes are in D. Smooth transition. but maybe just a bit ho-hum. In the second, the first tune is in D, the second tune is in G. Still a smooth transition, but it's more dramatic. That's the IV key change the OP mentioned.

BTW, kudos for their arrangement of "Rosetree," in which mandolin appears and plays a nice harmony in the A part the third time through.

[Jim Bevan]

When I'm in town (Santiago de Chile), I play with a band that has a set that goes from Sliabh Russel into The Rakes of Kildare -- both A dorian tunes.

Ya'd think that it might sound boring, but when Rakes starts, the guitarist plays a D chord (on a 12-string DADGAD-tuned guitar) -- man that sounds cool!
(He goes back to A for the B-part.)

[LongBlackVeil]

I agree with the keys going up -- my sets often start in G and end in A-major.

Another "rule" I like to go by (it's my own rule, of course, I made it up) is having the first tune be a three-parter. (Maybe it's my classical background, where the first movement is usually longer and bigger-feeling than the other two or three movements.)

I also tend to go from obscure to well-known, just so everybody at a session can join in as it progresses.

If I had the computer chops, I'd invent a "set generator". I'd give all my tunes criteria like dance (reel, jig, etc), key, form (AABB, AB, AABBCC etc), and popularity. I'd give the program some rules, like "no more than one AB in a set", "obscure=>little-known=>well-known" or "little-known=>well-known=>horrendously-overplayed", etc. My simple interface would have two buttons: "Tunes", which would open up a window for inputting the tune criteria, and "Generate", which would display the groovy (or not) new Set Of The Day.

That set generator is a terrific idea IMO. Maybe you should get in talks with an app devolop and turn it into an iphone and android app. There are certainly people that will do that for a price

[Jim Bevan]

Ya...

I'm hoping that someone savvy enough here will jump on it, and we'll all have a say in the parameters, we'll all benefit, and we'll all be proud of our MaCair Tratusegen (Mandolin Cafe Irish Trad Tune Set Generator).

(Seems that we'll need a handier name for it...)

[whistler]

If I had the computer chops, I'd invent a "set generator".

That's a great idea, but horrible at the same time. I have no doubt whatsoever that the technology exists, and I am almost certain that there is someone out there with both the understanding of the music and the programming knowhow to make it work - and once Mk.1 had been set to work, it could only improve. It would be a nice thing to achieve, but I hate the idea that it could become commonplace for musicians to be referring to gadgets in sessions, just to enable them to play a bunch of tunes. How many players nowadays would not even think of tuning up with out the aid of a clipon (or built-in) tuner?

Am I just getting old?

[Jim Bevan]

When I first thought it up, it was 'cuz I was wondering if I could handle the transitions between tunes if someone said "We're going to play ___, ___, ___" without having ever navigated those transitions before.

I thought a set generator would be a handy practice tool.

[xiledscot]

Well back here on planet music,we have no rules,as to what is and what is not acceptable.
Other people have said that if it sounds good,feels good and the audience like it,then it probably will be good. I tend to agree with that. Spontanaity is also a credible parameter.
Talking of parameters. Do you want this written in C , C++ or perhaps Java?
Writing a programme would not be difficult,except.....................
We are dealing with musicians here.
Who is to set the parameters? Will it be possible to get any concenus of opinion?
For example. What key is a tune played in ? Just because a famous group of guys,back in the 70's played a particular tune in A, it doesn't follow that the tune simply must be played in A.
Likewise tempo. Jigs and Reels etc.can be played at a whole range of different speeds. (and don't let any-one tell you differently)
I agree with my Welsh Buddy................even if there was money in such a thing,would I waant it?
We think not!

[Jim Bevan]

Yes, but to keep it simple, I think that you'd just have the four categories (dance, key, form, popularity), and go with the normal arrangements (I've never played the Kesh in D major, and ya, it's possible, and it might sound cool, but let's not overcomplicate things unnecessarily).

The overall rule is: Don't repeat a tune.
The rule for dance is: The three tunes have to be in the same category.
The rule for key is: Well, you just list all the keys in an order, like, say: G dorian, D minor, G mixolydian, D dorian, G major, D mixolydian, A dorian, D major, A mixolydian, E dorian, B minor, A major, B dorian, F# minor -- going through the cycle of 5ths, going up a 5th in each key signature (I left out keys that I can't think of a tune in). And you program the generator to not go backwards, to pick any three keys at random, but progressively through the specified order.
The rule for form is: You can have as many AABB tunes as you like, but you can't have more than one of the other forms in a set.
The rule for popularity are: You have four levels -- e.g. obscure, little-known, well-known, overplayed -- and the program goes in order, without skipping (meaning, 1-2-3 or 2-3-4).

You input a list of tunes, and you input pre-specified (like, choose from a drop-down menu) definitions into the four categories, e.g. Kesh: jig/G major/AABB/overplayed.

A fancier interface could let you turn off parameters, if you want to, say, ignore the key rule etc.

I think that would cover it enough to generate a nice enough set to try it out, see how it feels, and have fun.
And at least it would be good practise for making transitions...