Likely Orville Gibson made mandolin

[barney 59]

I knew I'd seen that mandolin before. It's here.

Interesting ---I forgot that thread or that I had seen it before. I have had a problem with Larson claims where anything that's old and good and unidentifiable can suddenly become a Larson but last night it occurred to me that this "Orville" were looking at could possibly have been built by the Larsons. So 4 years ago it was a Larson and now it's a Gibson ---Hmmm----I couldn't find any examples of a Larson just like that but they did build a violin shaped arch top sans the lump that isn't ( taken Larson ability to make things quite different from anything else they ever made) too much of a stretch to imagine that they could have made it!

[Michael Weaver]

So far all of the Orville built instruments I've seen seemed to have a volute where the neck meets the headstock. Did they all have that?

His prototype guitar did.

[MikeEdgerton]

Interesting ---I forgot that thread or that I had seen it before. I have had a problem with Larson claims where anything that's old and good and unidentifiable can suddenly become a Larson but last night it occurred to me that this "Orville" were looking at could possibly have been built by the Larsons. So 4 years ago it was a Larson and now it's a Gibson ---Hmmm----I couldn't find any examples of a Larson just like that but they did build a violin shaped arch top sans the lump that isn't ( taken Larson ability to make things quite different from anything else they ever made) too much of a stretch to imagine that they could have made it!

I think that many of the instruments attributed to the Larson's were probably built by Regal. Bob Carlin's Regal Musical Instruments book gives some real examples of what Regal was actually building. They had the ability to build this instrument, I'm just not sure they did.

I'm kind of with Darryl on this but that's because I want to find at least four more mandolin body styles built by Orville. If this is an Orville built mandolin it would be two out of the four.

[Ken Waltham]

Perhaps, but when the OP argues that the tuners are "consistent with Orville Gibson made instruments," it behooves us to judge that claim in light of the evidence. The OP makes the same claim about the tailpiece ... but in point of fact, that lyre tailpiece appears on precisely zero of the Orville mandolins one can find in a Google image search. The star and crescent on the headstock is the only real point of similarity, and even it isn't quite the same as any that Orville produced.

Exactly right. That tailpiece has nothing to do with Gibson. And the tuners, they were never on Orville instruments originally, only retro fitted later.

[Jeff Mando]

The star and crescent on the headstock

Isn't that the symbol for the Nation of Islam? (I know Gibson came first) Curious as to the origin.

[barney 59]

Mike, I have also wondered about that---for example Emil Wulshner and Sons --The "Indiana Regals" that get mentioned. I have seen several Wulshner and Sons instruments attributed to Larson. Wulshner began operation in 1885 before Larson's began to work for Mauer and was producing some state of the art instruments. Presentation grade mandolins and stress topped guitars (like Larson) were part of their line, I've wondered if they were the first to do so. Emil Wulshner died in 1900 and the company was sold in 1904 to a group of investors and by 1906 the operation had moved to Chicago as The Regal Co. The only explanation I could come up with for a Larson claim would be for that period after Dad died and before the operation moved if the "Sons" were part of Dad's company like my sons are part of mine and that maybe they contracted with someone else in order to fill orders, keep the business alive until they could sell it.. I still find it interesting though that this mandolin came up for discussion in 2010 as a Larson thread.

[barney 59]

Isn't that the symbol for the Nation of Islam? (I know Gibson came first) Curious as to the origin.

Or the "Syrians", you know,--- the guys in the parade with the Fezzes and the funny little cars! Maybe Orville was a member-----He liked funny hats!

[David Lewis]

Orville was into the occult, I understand. So, the various crescents and symbols have esoteric meanings.

[Jim Garber]

According to a 1937 article posted by Paul Fox on this page:

The pearl inlays [Orville] Gibson used were made by a Turkish manufacturer, which probably accounts for the star and crescent design”. When I first heard this one, I thought it was nonsense. I guess I was wrong. The crescent & moon is the symbol of Islam. Take a look at the earliest F-2 & F-4 mandolin ads below.

[danb]

Symbols like the star and crescent were sprinkled all over the US at that point in history. The Masons used them! It's easy to get over-excited and ascribe a particular meaning but there are so many possible explanations. I think there is an air of "Exoticism" or just simply "wanting to look cool" in Orville's designs. The scrolls can be seen as a reference to Greek Ionic column capitals.. the aesthetics of asymmetry that he used, the victorian filigree of his inlaid pickguards etc.. these are all present in all sorts of other places at the time.

I do think that the inlay on this example is meant to "quote" Orville here

[danb]

Yes, Orville really did like using volutes on the back of his pegheads. Note also complete lack of handel tuners in the later gibson F style!

Here's a sampling:

[danb]

Here's what I'm on about with the carving too.. thick plates, luxurious furniture-like curves, large flat back plates..

[danb]

And finally for now.. some good illustrations of the "hollow neck" and construction points, shown on 2526 a very early factory instrument

[Timbofood]

I heard a story about the whole "Star and crescent" thing,
Orville had struck a deal with a Syrian gent who had offered him a very advantageous deal if he would use that in pegheads.
No clue if it's true or not but, it's a fun story. If you look at the "other" Lyre mandolin, the inlay is not the star and crescent but more "wheel" like I know there's a name for the design but, drawing a blank right now. Just an observation.
I'm with you Dan, that's how I have thought about "Orvillian" backs too, they almost look like buffet tables!

[MikeEdgerton]

I think Dan is right on the star and crescent. No occult, no anything other than the country saw it as mysterious and desireable. Note the theaters and such being built at the time and the style they were being built in. I'll also guess that they were stock items used in other industries someplace in the world.

[barney 59]

The "Syrians" that I mentioned after I thought about it are actually the "Shriners", an offshoot of the Masons, and those symbols are common to them. "Friendly" societies were really popular back then and the Shriners were wealthy and big, particularly in the midwest. Most prominent citizens belonged to some group or another and to align yourself with the correct one could be important to your prosperity and social status. Some like the "Oddfellows" were kind of a pre-welfare insurance plan that took care of it's own members. The Shriners took/take care of sick kids. The Masons-who knows -rule the world? -or is that the Bohemians? Anyway many of these societies claim to trace their history back to the Crusades --Knights Templars and such and that accounts for the Islamic symbols. The Bohemians can only trace their history back to Jack London but that's typical for California. My family belonged to "The Moose" which might account for my prosperity!

[Jeff Mando]

Thanks, guys! All good comments. I guess with the internet and 24 hour cable news channels, we all are more "worldly" today than the world of the 1890's. Back then a person who read a few books and traveled some might possess enough arcane knowledge to start a cult or a mandolin company!

[MikeEdgerton]

The Shriners operated a children's hospital in the city I grew up in. A quick search shows that they have a history back into the late 1800's in Michigan. It's conjecture on my part but there's a very good chance that is why Orville chose that symbol. It may simply have been that the pearl was readily available or I guess he might have been a Shriner. The problem would be that Orville turned the Shriner symbol upside down. They use the same elements but they are different. Gibson was kind enough to put the logo on the later Epiphone models that had the star and crescent upside down from the way Orville put it. The later model is more like the Shriner's logo but it is missing the sword. The star and crescent on the flag of the Republic of Turkey is oriented differently as well. For all the conspiracy theorists out there check out this page of flags with the star and crescent on them. None of them are oriented in the Orville Gibson logo layout. My guess is that Orville just liked the way it looked and he could get them readily cut.

[Bruce Clausen]

Some like the "Oddfellows" were kind of a pre-welfare insurance plan that took care of it's own members. The Shriners took/take care of sick kids. The Masons-who knows -rule the world? -or is that the Bohemians? Anyway many of these societies claim to trace their history back to the Crusades --Knights Templars and such...

And let's not forget the Mystic Knights of the Sea.

For really odd occult symbols check out the back of a U.S. dollar bill.

[lenf12]

Thanks, guys! All good comments. Back then a person who read a few books and traveled some might possess enough arcane knowledge to start a cult or a mandolin company!

It's more than possible that his mandolin company spawned this little cult on the Cafe....

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[David Lewis]

And naturally, I only half explain what I meant, but there's been all this great information come through - I meant to say 'could we compare the symbols on the mandolin to other Orville mandolins'. Of course the trend towards spiritualism meant that all kinds of symbols started appearing everywhere: look at first editions by say, Kipling, and you'll see swastikas (then a completely different meaning) and other such symbols.

And the world is run by the illuminati Freemason Fabian Rothschild lizard people - geez, get it right, people!

[barney 59]

Actually I think that people that were educated back then were often really highly educated. ---Latin,Greek, a solid background in the classics-- They didn't settle for a Plato wiki page -they read Plato and probably in his own language! Look at all the really great schools that were founded in the 19th Century all over the country....They had a plan! Today all you could say is " Look at all the really secure prisons that we build!" or "How did my kid get passing grades all the way through school and he's can't count and is practically illiterate? ------and I sent him to good schools!" Anyway --there is little doubt that OG had a big hand in starting this little cult---he wasn't alone though- you can't count out Bill! As interesting as a discussion about education in America or Freemasonry might be --so who made that mandolin?.....I'm voting Larson Bros. at this point--the more I look at it the less Orville I see!

[David Lewis]

Orville as John the Baptist. Bill as Jesus? (With no offence intended - I'm drawing analogies not comparisons. )

[barney 59]

The Beatles were more popular than Jesus or so the story goes. If you read some of the stuff on the page that Mike directed us to the Star and The Crescent apparently go back a millennium or more before Islam and in the same region-associated with the God Mithra by some accounts. Who? Never heard of Mithra but must have been big in it's day! Maybe in a millennium or two some fragments of the Mandolin Cafe will be discovered and scholars will write papers about the Cult of the Mandolinists and their Gods-- Bill, Orville, and Jethro. Intellectuals will argue late into the night the hidden meaning of "That ain't no part of nothin'"!

[journeybear]

And the world is run by the illuminati Freemason Fabian Rothschild lizard people ...

Oh no you didn't! Now that you've revealed the true identity of The Powers That Be, I suspect you won't get to live much longer. Hopefully you'll have time to put your affairs in order before the hit men show up. It's been grand reading your posts. My condolences, in advance.