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Thread: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

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    Default 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Hello everyone! My first post.

    While Luigi Embergher is well known for his mandolins, he made a few fine concert guitars. A local luthier is helping me restore a 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar. The guitar is a family heirloom that has been in our family for three generations, seen use and abuse (steel strings included!), seen lots of humidity changes, traveled three continents, and is now in intensive care with my luthier friend. IMO he is an artist at restorations and is taking a lot of care to restore the original appearance and playability while preserving its 86 year old patina.

    If anyone owns, knows of an owner, or has repaired/restored a Luigi Embergher guitar from the 1920s to the 1930s please post. I want to learn as much as possible about the history/specs for this guitar. I welcome all information you can add. Almost nobody on a classical guitar forum I visit has heard of Embergher. I am hoping to have better luck on this forum where most have heard the name.

    Perhaps someone has an Embergher catalog for any year around 1928? I'd like to see the pages describing their guitars.

    The best information I could get on this guitar is from the Embergher.com website.

    Here is Alex Timmerman playing Sor on a No 5 seven string Embergher "heptacord" guitar.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEPGmRH-p4o

    Alex Timmerman is an accomplished mandolinist and guitarist and the author of the Embergher.com website.

    Thanks,

    Peter

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    And here I was, thinking 7-strings were just for face-melting. Lovely video from Mr. Timmerman.
    Welcome to the cafe, and I hope the restoration comes out well.

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    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    I assume you've been in contact with Gregg Miner, if not, his site is http://www.harpguitars.net. He knows a lot about European HGs and also knows many experts in Italy, France, et. al. that may have more info for you.

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Thanks for the welcome, Marty. Yes, Alex Timmerman is truly an excellent musician and Embergher historian. My guitar is almost the same as his but mine has 8 strings (two harp strings). And Delsbro, thanks for the tip on contacting Gregg Miner. I had seen and searched his site for "embergher" without success. But I will contact him next week to see if he might have some leads for me.

    I thought you might like to see some pics of the restoration in progress. The headstock ivory inlay has survived intact so far. If you have an Embergher mandolin, you will recognize the label. Fortunately we have all the parts including the headstock extension for the harp strings. But the bridge is gone and will have to be replaced.

    Peter
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Am I understanding it to be a harp-guitar as opposed to a harp/guitar? Asking as I cannot really appreciate the video and did not yet find my husband to look. If harp-guitar? then it is really interesting. And 7 strings? Evidently we are talking 7 single strings? Not our four courses, (four pairs of double strings)?

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    My guitar has 8 single strings. 6 are over the fingerboard. The 2 harp strings are strung between the pin bridge and a small headstock extension with 2 tuning keys. Hope this helps.

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    I may be old but I'm ugly billhay4's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Lovely,
    Bill
    IM(NS)HO

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Kurt DeCorte of Ghent, Belgium is a world-class luthier expert in guitars and mandolins especially Emberghers. Ralf Leenen is an expert on Embergher mandolins as well as a virtuoso player in Antwerp, Belgium. Kurt do the major body and structural work on my No. 3 Embergher and Ralf did the final setup. I am sure that both of them would be interested in seeing this instrument.
    Jim

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Sorry, I should have also mentioned that Ralf Leenen is the co-author of an excellent book on Embergher mandolins (along with Barry Pratt). He has in that book pages of a 1925 Embergher catalog including one page listing the various models of guitars, however there are no harp guitars with an extra string such as your or the one that Alex plays. This page is similar to the info on Alex's site here.
    Last edited by Jim Garber; Aug-18-2014 at 8:56pm.
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Thanks, Jim. I will try to contact Kurt to see if he has any insights into my Embergher harp guitar. Interestingly, Embergher did not refer to the guitar shown on Aex timmerman's site as a harp guitar. He just called it a concert guitar in his catalog even though the photo (taken years later, I'm sure) clearly shows the 7th floating bass string and the headstock extension with one tuning key.

    Did the 1925 catalog you mention have pictures/sketch diagrams? If so, I wonder if they show their concert guitar with 7 or 8 strings? It's possible that the catalog just refers to a concert guitar without mentioning the harp string. If you have a copy can you tell me exactly how the 1925 catalog describes the Embergher guitars.

    Best,

    Peter

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    This is very cool. More pictures please, Peter, if you've got them....

    Thanks!

    Mick
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    We are in the gluing/clamping stage while building a few new parts like the pin bridge. The pictures at this point would be more confusing than anything because the clamps hide the item being glued. More pics as we near completion. As my luthier friend says when working with istruments like this it has to be a lobor of love with slow and meticulous work.

    Anyway, here is one pic of the rosette restoration in progress. You can see good detail. I think the vine motif inlay and engraving over the inlay are just beautiful and elegant (some owner bias here, of course). Many guitars I've seen have elaborate and beautiful rosettes, but they all seem to be made up of straight inlay items - no curves, no engravings. On the other hand, mandolins as a group, seem to have a lot of very nice decorations on their soundboards (tables?).

    Best,

    Peter
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Saw Tom Shinness play his harp guitar as the "bass" player for Keb Mo 2014 tour band. He also played a mandolin and cello as well.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP_4tHqGdss
    I think, therefore, I pick.

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Did the 1925 catalog you mention have pictures/sketch diagrams? If so, I wonder if they show their concert guitar with 7 or 8 strings? It's possible that the catalog just refers to a concert guitar without mentioning the harp string. If you have a copy can you tell me exactly how the 1925 catalog describes the Embergher guitars.
    In Ralf's book (now, sadly out of print) the page just shows one guitar. They only mention three models 1,3, & 5 and that they correspond to the mandolin styles. No mention of additional strings. Ralf's book concentrates mostly on mandolins.
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Richard, The Tom Shinness harp guitar seems very robust with two tailpieces, steel strings and a multi string zither-like harp. Must be heavy! I like the way he strums the harp strings to add color to his music. In comparison, my guitar is considered a classical nylon string (or gut string?) guitar with two tunable floating (harp) bass strings. It weighs almost the same as a standard 6 string guitar. Since I first posted, I've heard that a lot of old classical music for guitar was written so these low bass strings can be plucked when called for in the score. There is actually notation in the score (8va) to play notes one octave lower. Those who have a regular 6 string guitar simply "cheat" by playing the available note on the fingerboard.

    Jim, that 1925 catalog page is most interesting! It does not assign the picture to the model, so we have to guess that either Embergher used tuning pegs on his lesser models in 1925, or that he introduced geared tuning keys in the next couple of years. Certainly by 1928 (my guitar) concert or better models had machine tuning keys and a slotted headstock. In 1930 he used machine tuners on all of his models. It's great to fill in the these historical blanks. Let me know if you hear about more recent catalogs.

    Thanks,

    Peter

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    Jim, that 1925 catalog page is most interesting! It does not assign the picture to the model, so we have to guess that either Embergher used tuning pegs on his lesser models in 1925, or that he introduced geared tuning keys in the next couple of years. Certainly by 1928 (my guitar) concert or better models had machine tuning keys and a slotted headstock. In 1930 he used machine tuners on all of his models. It's great to fill in the these historical blanks. Let me know if you hear about more recent catalogs.
    I have a feeling it might be the choice of the buyer what tuners they preferred. Certainly every Embergher mandolin I have seen has had geared tuners.

    I think that is what they are saying in those notes at the end of each section:

    Le Chitarre si possono comandare con la meccanica od a pioli speciali.

    On fabrique les guitares avec la mecanique o schevilley des luths specials.
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Quite right, Jim. There is a similar catalog page at Embergher.com, year unknown, that says the same thing.

    http://www.embergher.com/index.php?id=58

    Makes me wonder: why would a buyer not wan't machine tuners? Surely tuning pegs were not a novelty in the 1920s. Tuning a guitar, or worse a lute, with pegs must have been a real pain. Mandolinists were smart enough to insist on machine tuners for their 8 strings.

    Best,

    Peter

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    I think the difference is prob the same as the tradition of using violin pegs -- the players adhere to their tradition. Using gut or modernized nylon it was prob fine to use friction pegs esp for those used to that. Neapolitan mandolins always had metal strings so the geared pegs were a real god-send, i would think.
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    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Flamenco guitars traditionally use friction pegs instead of gears. Perhaps they were feeling especially español.

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    I think Embergher advertised his guitars as student and concert models only. Looks like he never had that español feeling! Peg tuners were traditional perhaps, but they had to be difficult to use.

    I was able to PM Alex Timmerman who is very knowledgeable about all things Embergher. He may be able to provide us with useful insights of what Embergher built in the late 1920s

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    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterL View Post
    I think Embergher advertised his guitars as student and concert models only. Looks like he never had that español feeling
    Perhaps, but they are Spanish guitars, after all. Tradition dies hard, especially in that corner of the musical world.

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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher harp guitar restoration

    Tradition does indeed die hard, Dels. But consider: Embergher used maple mainly for his concert (and better) guitars. Palisander (rosewood) was an option, but I don't know of any Embergher rosewood concert guitars in existence. Three maple ones, including mine, survived. The use of maple at the time was from the violin tradition and possibly a popular choce. Isn't maple used in most mandolins too?

    Traditions do die though. Most Spanish guitars today, except some beautiful replicas, sport rosewood or other non-maple tonewoods for back and sides, and machine tuners. I think the 1920s were about at the cusp of the change.

    I don't know why the change in tonewoods took place. The great guitarists and teachers like Sor, Aguado and Guilliani all fovored maple. The human ear hasn't changed in evaluating tone. Maple is still readily available. So what happened?

    Peter
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    Default Re: 1928 Luigi Embergher 8-sting concert guitar restoration

    Alex Timmerman and I have exchanged a few emails on Embergher and his guitars and some specific information to help me with my restoration. With his permission I am sharing this information with readers of this forum. Perhaps someone else with an Embergher guitar will find this information useful or at least interesting.

    I asked Alex several questions about Embergher guitars as they relate to my 1928 guitar.

    Peter: Did Embergher ever make a model No 7 concert guitar. I was told many years ago that my guitar (8 strings) was a model 7. But I can find no evidence to support this, as the 1925 catalog shows only models 1, 3 and 5. I do not know the date of the catalog page you have on Embergher.com>instruments>miscellaneous. Do you know if Embergher might have made his 8 string guitars on special order, since they are not mentioned in his catalog?

    Alex: I don't think Embergher - or his successors - ever made the Model No. 7. Of course it could have been possible as a special request from a customer, but generally speaking I think Embergher made what he advertised in his catalogue.

    To my knowledge (I have never encountered any higher Embergher guitar models) the Model No. 5. guitar is the highest model that has been build by Luigi Embergher and/or his direct successor Domenico Cerrone. In fact the latter is probably responsible for the bulk of the guitars that have been made in the Embergher atelier in Arpino. The Model No. 1 being a student guitar and the Model No. 3 an orchestra model.
    I have seen a Jazz guitar made by, if I remember well, Pasquale Peccoraro. A Fine instrument but not made to the highest standard as seen in the guitars build by Embergher and Domenico Cerrone. This jazz guitar is preserved in the Embergher-Cerrone Museum in Arpino. This museum is unfortunately now closed.

    Peter: I am surprised that the world wide classical guitar community knows so little about Embergher, as my thread on the classiclguitardelcamp forum suggests. Why is that?

    Alex: This is because the guitars made in Italy were completely overshadowed by the ones made in Spain in that particular time (1850 up to 1940). In fact they still are. It is only because of the growing interest by scholars, collectors and a dozen or so guitarists in the last 5 or 10 years that the interest in guitar making in other countries than Spain is taking on.

    Peter: I think the concert models (yours and mine) sound fine.

    Alex: They indeed do sound great. And one should listen to the sound and place it in its time and place (country). And play the music that was composed for it. So, on our Embergher guitars Italian music composed in the period from 1850 up to 1940 would be, and sound, excellent!


    Peter: Yet there are so few of these instruments left. Right now I know of only 4 in existence and one may have termite damage.

    Alex: I think the number of guitars made in the Embergher atelier is very limited. The focus was always laying on producing the instruments of the mandolin Family (all the types and models of the mandolin, the same for alto- and tenor mandolas, mandoloncello, etc. as described in the catalogues published by the Embergher atelier).

    Peter: The Mandolin Cafe community of course has heard of Embergher because of his fine mandolins.

    Alex: Yes, that is largely because of my writings there, my website about Embergher and because my students, my mandolin chamber orchestra 'Het CONSORT', and I, perform on the instruments of the Embergher atelier.

    Peter: There is some speculation as to whether Embergher used ivory or bone in his guitars in the headstock or rosette inlays. Do you know what materials he used?

    Alex: Luigi Embergher used ivory for the outer lining around the sound-table and rosette of the guitar (and mandolins). In the later made instruments by Domenico Cerrone there was a ivorite or white celluloid applied for the outer lining of the rosette and sound-table.

    And if you look closely to the other circle-linings in the rosette you'll see that the white color is more watery; these linings are made of baleen (the white layers of rectangular plates found in the mouth of whales - the same material (Keratin) that hair, nails and hooves are made out of).

    Peter: Have you ever had your No 5 concert guitar valued, perhaps for insurance purposes? Just wondered what they would cost today if they were available.

    Alex: Because I am regarded as an expert, I do the valuation of these plucked instruments for insurance purposes for my own instruments and for other plucked instrumentalist and collectors etc. myself.

    The values of the guitars made in the Embergher atelier fluctuate at musical instrument auctions between 3500 and 6000 Euro. Of course when bought from a (musical instrument or specialized guitar) dealer it can easily be more. Of course when bought directly from an owner who is not attached to it, the costs may be considerably less (under 3500 Euro).

    Peter: Does the Embergher museum have examples of his guitars displayed?

    Alex: Yes, before the museum closed some years back, there was the Model No. 5 Jazz guitar that I have already mentioned here, and an Orchestra Model No. 3 guitar.

    Peter: I want to thank you for the excellent work you have done to preserve the history and traditions of Embergher on your Embergher.com website.

    Alex: Thank you!

    Peter: Also, I really like your Sor on your No 5 on YouTube. I'd like to see more music played on your guitar. Do you know Couperin's Les Barricades Mysterieuses?

    Alex: Yes I do. That would indeed be a lovely piece also. Maybe when time permits, I'll take it up and record it.

    I hope to hear from you with up-dates on the restoration of you wonderful guitar. You would do me a great favour by making good photographs of your Embergher guitar when the restoration is finished. I would love to write about the guitar made in the Embergher atelier and include yours as well.

    Peter: I will be happy to send you photographs when the restoration is complete and some photos of the inside bracing.

    Alex: I saw that the bridge was lacking on your Embergher guitar and that there originally have been holes for the pins that go through the bridge to tie the strings. Judging from what I see at the photo you send, I think that the original bridge looks very much the same as the one on my guitar. If you like, I can make exact measurements and photos of the bridge. If I were you I would like to have it restored as close to its original design.

    Here is a photo of my 1930 Luigi Embergher 7-string Concert Guitar Mod. No 5.
    The guitar is completely original. And as you will notice the rosette was, somewhere between 1928 (your guitar) and 1930 (mine), simplified. Or perhaps a special request? Interesting all! [Note: the photo of Alex’s guitar can be seen at http://www.embergher.com/index.php?id=58 ]

    I am very grateful to Alex for his insights and for permitting me to share this information with readers of this forum.

    Peter
    Peter

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