sinker cypress

[b4idie]

I have a number of pieces of what south Louisianans call "sinker cypress" that has been retrieved from the swamps and completely dried. Am thinking about starting my own build project and wondering if any of that wood could be used in the creation of a mandolin and specifically if it would work for a neck and perhaps a top [and or back]. It has what I consider beautiful grain but is a fairly soft wood prone to being dented. I consider it soft but it's not in the softwood category to my knowledge. It makes great boats and pirogues and paddles as it has for three centuries down here. This is all old growth cypress and easily a thousand years old [what one of my experts have told me] downed as much as a century or so ago and left underwater. Sometimes the old loggers would sink it on purpose and other pieces were downed from hurricanes across time. Not sure if folks outside of this area are familiar with it but in south Louisiana it is gold. Any ideas? Or experiences with cypress?

thanks,
lane

[Richard Mott]

I’m not a builder, but I’ve lived in Louisiana and worked with cypress. We tend to think of “softwoods” as evergreen needle-bearing trees like spruce with lightweight wood suitable for tops, and “hardwoods” as broad-leaved, deciduous trees like walnut or maple with harder, denser wood more suitable for backs & sides. Though of course in both lutherie and nature things are more complicated than that! Cypress is a combination of the foregoing—it is a deciduous, needle-bearing tree—with fairly soft and lightweight wood. In theory, the low density would make it more suitable to carving tops, assuming it is stiff enough. But it may be that sinker cypress has mineralized or otherwise changed its properties during centuries of submersion, in ways that could make it too dense for responsive tops. The best way to assess this would be to weigh the wood and test the flexibility and see how it measures up to the more commonly used species.

[b4idie]

Thanks Richard for that. I remember seeing in my lifetime references to cypress tops for guitars but unsure if those were specimens from another continent. Good idea about weighing and testing flexibility. I have some nice curly maple pieces that could be compared/weighed to a similar size of cypress - will try that. Just couldn't stand for all my cypress to not be used in something as labor intense as an instrument - if it would work. And surely it has mineralized being submerged for so long and absorbing everything around it.

[Richard Mott]

Glad to throw in my two cents! One note: what we call “cypress” in the American South is Taxodium distichum, and not a true cypress. The true cypress, genus Cupressus, is the Old World tree used more often in guitar building, especially in Flamenco instruments. So they are very different.

[Eric Oliver]

"First you make a roux."
Seems like there was a builder just north out of Baton Rouge, maybe Baker, that worked on that. I'm thinking that would be in the 1960s or '70s.
I would seek out the old folks to ask, to parlay.
Ooh boy. I could use a plate of red beans and rice right now..

[CarlM]

According to the Woods Database the stiffness is in a range comparable to the spruces and more than red cedar. The density is slightly higher than the spruces and quite a bit more than red cedar. The hardness is comparable to spruce. It is much softer than maple so probably not suitable for necks. It might make a good top wood if you can find suitably sized clear pieces with straight grain. You might try rapping on some pieces and see how they ring.

[b4idie]

Thanks everyone for this feedback. The specifics of your remarks are very helpful. I probably should go with tested woods even though some are a little pricey. I don't know enough to navigate these early wood decisions so going with proven species makes more sense for me. Money is not really an issue but I try to shave where I can. It would be awful to build something out of what I have and for it to sound like cardboard in the end. in re: Louisiana, right now everyone is eating king cake ........ so close to Mardi Gras. But red beans and rice are for every Monday in the city. I live on the northshore so we get New Orleans television and what happens there. On another note to CarlM - I have a number of suitably sized clear pieces with straight grain but would not trust my ear to how it should 'ring.' Maybe one of you with better ears could come for a visit [to listen with your trained ear] and we could go out for gumbo, crawfish, red beans and rice and eat 'til we bust' as they say.

[Richard Mott]

There’s always Friday for shrimp Creole!

[jannickz]

I’m not a builder, but I’ve lived in Louisiana and worked with cypress. We tend to think of “softwoods” as evergreen needle-bearing trees like spruce with lightweight wood suitable for tops, and “hardwoods” as broad-leaved, deciduous trees like walnut or maple with harder, denser wood more suitable for backs & sides. Though of course in both lutherie and nature things are more complicated than that! Cypress is a combination of the foregoing—it is a deciduous, needle bearing tree—with fairly soft and lightweight wood. In theory, the low density would make it more suitable to carving tops, assuming it is stiff enough. But it may be that sinker cypress has mineralized or otherwise changed its properties during centuries of submersion, in ways that could make it too dense for responsive tops. The best way to assess this would be to weigh the wood and test the flexibility and see how it measures up to the more commonly used species.

The lightweight nature is good for tops, but stiffness is crucial for good sound response. Sinker cypress being underwater for centuries might have affected its stiffness. If the stiffness is good, it could work for the top. However, established tonewoods might be a safer choice.

[zookster]

Being underwater for a long period of time -- in the right conditions --- does not harm potential tonewood. Companies are currently dredging up virgin timber from the bottom
of the Great Lakes that were lost in wrecks. The cold temperature, and lack of oxygen, preserves the wood. Once it is resawn some amazing pieces become available. I just wish I could afford it.

I have used a lot of "sinker" redwood, which has been reclaimed with excellent results. It also turns the wood a bit darker and looks very appealing.

[BradKlein]

I have used a lot of "sinker" redwood, which has been reclaimed with excellent results. It also turns the wood a bit darker and looks very appealing.

Post a finished photo of a top you've made with sinker redwood?

[sunburst]

...I probably should go with tested woods even though some are a little pricey. I don't know enough to navigate these early wood decisions so going with proven species makes more sense for me...

I agree wholeheartedly.
It is not uncommon for inexperienced builders to choose and use 'alternative' woods. It can work out fine, but then again, it can provide surprises.
The hardness and stiffness data posted looks good for top wood, but we still don't know how well it glues, internal damping characteristics, split resistance, cross grain stiffness, shrinkage and other aspects. I think it is much better to learn with 'standard' materials.
Personally even though I have worked with many woods for 40 years or so, I have never done anything with cypress, sunken or otherwise, so I don't really know anything about it.

[Denis Kearns]

Just to add a little botany into the discussion: The tree in Lane’s question is bald cypress (Taxodium distichum), common in swampy areas across the south. A related species ranges from the Rio Grande down to Guatemala. Bald cypress is one of the conifers in the Cupressaceae (Cypress Family) and, as noted by Richard above, not the same as the cypress used in guitar making. Other members of the Cypress family have been used in making instruments, including cedar, incense cedar, and coast redwood (and others? ). I have a very nice sounding OM from Phil Crump with an old-growth redwood top (see my current avatar photo). Since bald cypress is a common tree, I’m surprised that someone has not already tired to used it for a soundboard (but see below).

Spruce, the most common material used for instrument tops is in the Pinaceae (Pine Family), another group of useful conifers.

For an interesting and fun discussion of a nylon string OM made out of bald cypress by Jim Adwell see the following:

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-a-Top-With-It

[Caberguy]

Bald Cypress and Port Orford Cedar are in the same genus (Cupressaceae). Port Orford is used regularly as an "alternative tonewood" for guitars. But the reports on this site about using Port Orford in mandolins is mixed.

The fact that Bald Cypress is both about 12-13% heavier, and has a Young's Modulous that's about 13% lower than Port Orford, might mean it would be a bit problematic. Of course, those are just averages, and individual specimens can differ.

But, I'm just a dilettante here.

[sunburst]

...Since bald cypress is a common tree, I’m surprised that someone has not already tired to used it for a soundboard...]

I would bet nearly anything that it has been used.
I often tell people; 'any innovation you think of has already been tried at some time in history'.
Why don't we know about it? Usually because it didn't work well. Instruments are "reverse engineered" through the years through trial and error. The things that work are kept, the things that don't work get tossed, and often lost to history, so they get tried again. This is why, in my previous post, I suggested that the OP is correct to stick with the tried and true, at least in the early going.
Now that the vast majority of instruments are production made, innovation is inhibited in large part, and is left to the individual makers and small shops, but innovation is such a financial risk that it is a slow process. Perhaps these are reasons why hobby builders tend toward novel materials and methods more than pros.

[morgan]

There is a guy named GS Monroe, Greenswamp Music, that sells a variety of instruments on Etsy and sometimes uses cypress . I've never heard or played one of his instruments, but there are probably some videos around and he might be a source of info.

[j. condino]

I've built a few classical guitars and a couple of steel strings flattop models with back and sides out of both Spanish cypress and Monterey cypress; I would not use it for tops, but I would use any cypress family woods for back & sides provided they were high grade, the right cut, and well seasoned. The steel string guitars in particular were incredibly fast responding- like an immediate explosion of sound with plenty of headroom. I love old friction peg flamenco guitars with cypress backs and sides because of the powerful midrange that cuts through a room full of dancers and castinets and owns it with confidence.

As for the Port Orford cedar comments, I built approx. 8 guitars and two mandolins out of it way back in the day when I worked for Kim Breedlove in the old Tumalo shop. The mandolin was paired with Oregon Myrtle back, sides, and neck. It had a surprisingly nice voice, but it is very fragile. The guitars sounded like the most godawful wet cardboard $#!@ that I would never go near again! I was embarrassed to be associated with them and pleaded with management to throw them in the trash as a bad lesson learned. Of course the beancounters shipped them out for premium prices.....I believe that was just before bankruptcy #2....

[Denis Kearns]

Just to clear up some botanical confusion, Port Orford cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana) and Bald cypress (Taxodium distichum) are not in the same genus, but are in the same conifer family (Cupressaceae), as are incense cedar (Calocedrus decurrans), true cypress (Cupressus), and juniper (Juniperus, sometimes called “cedar”). True cedar (Cedrus species is in the pine family (Pinaceae). All are conifers aka “softwoods” regardless of their hardness.

As a way of explanation, I went to school for as long as I could, studying botany. And, eventually, had to venture out in the real world and put that information to use in accumulating financial resources (i.e., a job). My friends used to joke that incense cedar was named after me (the second part of the scientific name = D. Kearns). I find common names to be a pain in the butt. Scientific names carry so much more information. Imagine if there were a bunch of mandolins shaped like Gibson Fs which had Gibson-like names, or were also called “Gibsons”. That’s what dealing with common names for plants is like.

The tone wood discussion in this thread has been fun to read.

[Caberguy]

Just to clear up some botanical confusion, Port Orford cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana) and Bald cypress (Taxodium distichum) are not in the same genus, but are in the same conifer family (Cupressaceae).

Yep, I totally messed that up. See... I said I was a dilettante.

[GaryDavis]

Sinker redwood top

Before:

[IMG]Untitled by Gary Davis, on Flickr[/IMG]

After (finished with oil varnish):
[IMG]Untitled by Gary Davis, on Flickr[/IMG]

[Walt]

My lap steel prototype was made from Bald Cypress. Danny Ferrington has also built at least a few acoustic guitars using Bald Cypress for the back and sides. I’m in Louisiana, and no one really goes through the exercise of making quartersawn cypress lumber. I’ve always wanted to find a quartersawn piece and see if it could work as a top.
It’s very soft, so you have to be careful not to scratch and dent the raw wood. I have a few big slabs of it. It would make a cool tele, or a super light electric bass.

[zookster]

Let me weigh in one more time.


I have built a table of bald cypress when I worked at a cabinet shop. It was fine for a table, but in no way do I think it would work as a tonewood. Too heavy, and only a "thud" as far as tap tone. A deal on wood does not translate to a deal on supposed tonewood.

I have just completed my first mandolin with a Port Orford cedar top, and I am extremely pleased with the results (it is currently for sale on Reverb). This wood works well, and exhibits good tonal characteristics during the building process. a COMPLETELY different wood from Cypress. Might be related, but radically different. I didn't use it to be different, I used it because it looked like it would be a good tonewood. It is.