What is this chord?

[JeffD]

I think I figured out why I don't play jazz.

[ombudsman]

I would never know this by seeing AQ4, and although I do admit it is more succinct, it requires learning a whole new set of information. Us self-taughters don't always know where to go to find that stuff.

Right, well, I don't go around putting that quartal symbol in front of other players and expecting them to know it already. I would show it to them and give a brief explanation. But it's easy, at least on guitar, you can simply barre at the 5th fret and play the lower 4 strings. Most people seem to be pretty clear on it after that, because it's so symmetrical.

If you don't use the chord, you don't need an efficient way of writing it. But I use it a lot, and it gets old writing Am7add11 no fifth a bunch of times on a chart. I just had to make 17 key strokes to type that, for a chord that only has 4 notes in it. I could literally just give you a list of the notes, ADGC, and it would be 4 times more efficient.

At some point you have to recognize that using tertial language for chords that are not tertial is like the musical equivalent of Jack Nicholson ordering a tuna salad sandwich, hold the tuna salad. It's just like trying to explain to a beginner how diatonic major keys work and showing them harmonized triads or seventh chords, and then trying to explain a simple 12 bar blues which follows none of those rules. Everybody has a limit for how much mental shoehorning they are willing to tolerate. There's a difference between preferring what you already know, and actually having a good way to express the basic units of music that you work with every day.

[Bertram Henze]

I think I figured out why I don't play jazz.

Yes - considering that when they play their stuff it all sounds so freely invented as they go along, this high degree of coding kind of deflates it all. We should feed all the chord progressions we've seen on this thread into a Perl interpreter and see what it does...

[journeybear]

What is this chord? A big pain in the sit-upon and a real trouble-maker.

[Pasha Alden]

I have been treading lightly around these chords, but really hope to practice them before jamming with the school learners and learn at least two or three. They add such a great dimension to the music.

[ombudsman]

Yes - considering that when they play their stuff it all sounds so freely invented as they go along, this high degree of coding kind of deflates it all.

It's all relative. I've heard that same feeling of deflation expressed by a person just after I was telling her some things about dominant progressions in pop songs.

She had gone through life until then imagining that songs were put together like little snowflakes where any chord could be placed next to any other as if they were colors in a painting, guided only by personal taste and whimsy, with each new song being like a tabula rasa, except when deliberate copying of another song was involved. And then I had a dim recollection of thinking that myself when I was a lot younger.

[EdHanrahan]

... like little snowflakes where any chord could be placed next to any other as if they were colors in a painting ... dim recollection of thinking that myself ...

Hey... I, IV, V... Red, yellow, blue... But that only applies to pigments; for light it all changes to... Uhmm, never mind!

[Paleosporin]

I see some misconceptions in this thread about how chords are constructed, and more importantly their relationship to each other. Harmony in Western music is derived from the major scale. Let's take D major.

D E F# G A B C#

Or, let's numerate each degree.

1. D
2. E
3. F#
4. G
5. A
6. B
7. C#

Chords are constructed from this scale by building successive thirds off of each degree of the scale. It seems that most of the contributors in this thread know how to obtain the tonic chord: start with the first note of the scale, then skip a letter, then skip another letter, and so forth.

D E F# G A, just take out the non-bolded letters and you get a D major triad (D F# A).

The next thing to realize is that this applies not only to the first note of the scale, but all of the other ones as well.

1. D F# A (D)
2. E G B (Em)
3. F# A C# (F#m)
4. G B D (G)
5. A C# E (A)
6. B D F# (Bm)
7. C# E G (C#°)

And look at that, there's C#° at the end of the list. We don't need to start with a C# major scale and go crazy with altering things, because it's all contained in this D major scale. What is important about building all of these chords from the same major scale is that the chords bear relationships toward one another that work toward the singular goal of intensifying the tonic chord, D.

X:18
T:Andrew Carr
M:9/8
L:1/8
R:Slip Jig
K:D
|:"D"d2B AFA AFA|"D"d2A "Bm"def "A"gfe|"D"d2B AFA "A"ABc|"D"d2D DEF "A"E2D:|
w:I|I ~ vi ~ ~ V|I ~ ~ ~ ~ V|I ~ ~ ~ ~ V
|:"D"F2A AFA AGF|"G"G2B BGB BAG|"D"F2A AFA "A"ABc|"D"d2D DEF "A"E2D:|
w:I|IV|I ~ ~ ~ ~ V|I ~ ~ ~ ~ V

(If you don't already know what that is, it's ABC notation. You can copy-paste that code into a converter, such as this one or this one, and have instant sheet music.)

In this tune, you will see that there are chords on the top of the staff and some Roman numerals on the bottom of the staff. The Roman numerals indicate the position and function of a chord in the key. In the case of this song, the key is D major. Remember before how we had numbered the scale degrees of D major from 1 to 7? When speaking of chords in a scale, we use the Roman numerals instead. So, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 becomes I II III IV V VI VII. However, we also change the letter case of the numerals to reflect whether a chord is major, minor, diminished, or augmented.

I = D
ii = Em
iii = F#m
IV = G
V = A
vi = Bm
vii° = C#°

Notice that in Andrew Carr's, V (A) always precedes I (D). This is a basic relationship in Western music. Each phrase ends with V because that chord pushes our ear toward I when the section repeats. The reason for this is because V contains the seventh note of the scale (C#), which we call the "leading tone". Our ear wants to hear the completion of the scale by resolving that C# up to D. Any chord containing C# in the key of D is going to push toward the tonic, and the tune won't sound finished until you hit a D at the end. With that in mind, which other chords in the key have that leading tone? C#° and F#m. You could theoretically substitute C#° or F#m anywhere where you see A in this piece, because it will fulfill the same harmonic function. F#m might sound a little weird, because two thirds of it is identical to the tonic triad, D. (D F# A vs. F# A C), and to use it as a leading tone function chord is like trying to get somewhere that you've already gotten. The other chords that contain that tone, A (A C# E) and C#° (C# E G), are dissimilar enough to the tonic chord that this is not a problem. The reason that you see V more often than vii°#is because it is easier to play a major triad than a diminished triad on most instruments, and V shares enough notes with vii° that you get the same functional sound (A C# E vs. C# E G).

We can make richer harmonies by adding more tones onto chords. The traditional method is to keep stacking thirds on top of each other to make 7th chords, then 9th chords, 11th chords, and finally 13th chords. For the moment, let's examine 7th chords.

Imaj7 = Dmaj7, D F# A C#
ii7 = Em7, E G B D
iii7 = F#m7, F# A C# E
IVmaj7 = Gmaj7, G B D F#
V7 = A7, A C# E G
vi7 = Bm7, B D F# A
viiø7 = C#ø7, C# E G B

These are the diatonic seventh chords in the key of D major. You can look at these as the triads that we already covered, plus one of two kinds of sevenths: either a major seventh (maj7) or a minor seventh (7). You could tack these chords onto the slip jig we looked at and still have a correct harmonization: change all the D's to Dmaj7's, all of the Bm's to Bm7's, all of the G's to Gmaj7's, and all of the A's to A7's. Let's pay special attention to the A7 for a moment. When dealing with seventh chords, you get a two-in-one sonority. A7 (A C# E G) is not only A (A C# E), but also C#° (C# E G). Since both have a leading tone function, it's like a super-duper leading tone chord.

What of that last one, that looks like its first name is Sven? C#ø7 is the so-called "half-diminished seventh chord." I will explain the "half" part momentarily, but just think of this chord as a diminished triad + a minor seventh. In jazz and pop circles, this chord is called "m7(♭5)", which I consider to be incorrect because it is obtained by starting with diminished triad and add a seventh, not by taking a m7 chord and altering it. I mean, you can, but we don't say "Dm7(#7,#3)" for Dmaj7. viiø7 is a rare chord, but it comes from a very common procedure. I don't think that it is as compelling as V7, V, or even vii°. It is a nice chord, but difficult to use well. It's used as an arpeggio in the seventh and fifteenth measures of this tune:

X: 2
T: Rickett's
R: hornpipe
M: 4/4
L: 1/8
K: D
dcdA FAdf | edcB A2 fg | afaf bagf | edcB A2 fe |
dcdA FAdf | edcB A2 fg | afdg bgec | d2 d2 d2 :||
afaf d2 ga | bgbg e2 fg | afaf bagf | edcB A2 fe |
dcdA FAdf | edcB A2 fg | afdg bgec | d2 d2 d2 :|]

In practice, a rhythm player would probably do "A" or "A7" for that part of the music (because V and vii° substitute for one another), but they could ostensibly play C#ø7 there.

If you're reharmonizing your entire repertoire with seventh chords, you may find that Dmaj7 does not always work well to take the place of D, because it's the same deal as the F#m that we talked about earlier. Dmaj7 contains D F# A C#, and C# is the leading tone. Where's that leading tone going? It should be going to D, but we already have D in that chord. It's a colorful and beautiful chord, but you may find that your ear prefers a plain old D triad when you need finality. This is also a stylistic thing. In jazz, it is common to end on Imaj7, because color shares equal ground with functionality in that music. In Western traditional music, harmonic function is usually stronger than any coloristic tendencies. Color in English/Irish/Scotch music is typically achieved through the use of different modes rather than complex chords or oddball harmonic motion.

I'm going to break this up into two posts, so that I can talk about the colors of the minor mode.

[Paleosporin]

When we talk about minor keys in Western music, we typically bring up the natural minor scale, as well as the harmonic and melodic minor. Let's do these in the key of A.

• A natural minor: A B C D E F G [1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7]
• A harmonic minor: A B C D E F G# [1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 7]
• A melodic minor: A B C D E F# G# [1 2 ♭3 4 5 6 7]

(I'm using "♭" to indicate which degrees are lowered when compared to a major scale sharing the same tonic. A major is A B C# D E F# G#, A natural minor is A B C D E F G; 3, 6, and 7 are flat compared to their equivalent in the major mode.)

These are taught and often conceived as separate entities, but in practice there is no such separation. Rather, I posit that "minor" means a seven-note scale in which the sixth and seventh degrees are variable.

• A minor (with variable 6 and 7): A B C D E F/F# G/G# [1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6/6 ♭7/7]

This means that we have a great many colors to work with in the minor mode, both in harmony as well as melody. Not only do we have the natural minor colors at our fingertips at any given time, but by messing with those sixth and seventh degrees we can get melodic and harmonic minor as needed, and even the dorian mode (A B C D E F# G; 1 2 ♭3 4 5 6 ♭7). In other words, this is the palette of chords for the minor mode:

I'm starting with the natural minor version of the chord on the left, and going to the chords containing either the variable 6 or 7 as I go to the right.

i = Am, A C E
ii° = B°, B D F; ii = Bm, B D F#
♭III = C, C E G; ♭III+ = C+, C E G#
iv = Dm, D F A; IV = D, D F# A
v = Em, E G B; V = E, E G# B
♭VI = F, F A C; vi° = F#°, F# A C
♭VII = G, G B D; vii° = G#°, G# B D

The Coleraine Jig contains such variable 6/7 madness:

X:3
T:Coleraine Jig
M:6/8
L:1/8
R:Jig
K:Am
E|:"Am"EAA ABc|"E"Bee e2d|"Am"cBA ABc|"E"B^GE E2E|
w:~ i|V|i|V
"Am"EAA ABc|"E"Bee e2d|"Am"cBA "E"B^GE|[1"Am"A3 A2E:|[2"Am"A3 A2B||
w:i|V|i ~ ~ V|i|i
|:"C"c2c cdc|"G"Bdg g2^g|"Am"aed cBA|"E"^GBG E^FG|
w:bIII|bVII|i|V
"Am"A^GA "E"BAB|"Am"cde "Dm"fed|"Am"cBA "E"BA^G|[1"Am"A3 A2B:|[2"Am"A3 A2|]
w:i ~ ~ V|i ~ ~ iv|i ~ ~ V|i|i

The first two systems alternate between i and V, which is typical harmonic minor stuff. The third system starts with the ♭7 from the natural minor, then goes back to 7, and we even get 6 from the melodic minor at the end of the third line. In the second measure of the fourth system, there is an F (♭6), which in the context of the G# (7) in the measures around it firmly establishes the harmonic minor.

The minor mode also contains some important seventh chords. I won't list the seventh chords in their entirety because they become quite numerous when you factor in the variable degrees, but the important ones are iiø7 (Bø7, B D F A), V7 (E7, E G# B D), and vii°7 (G#°7, G# B D F). We've already seen two of these chord qualities before: iiø7 is like viiø7 in the major mode, but iiø7 is used much more frequently than viiø7. The half-diminished quality seems to function better as a supertonic (the 2nd degree chord of the key) than as a leading tone chord. V7 is also nothing new, but it is the entire purpose of the harmonic minor: the insertion of the leading tone (G#) into the music gives the minor mode the same tonal strength as the major mode. Plain old ♭7 (G) doesn't create the same tension. Next, we have vii°7. This is the so-called "fully diminished seventh chord," or simply the "diminished seventh chord". Why do they say half and fully diminished chords? I don't know, it doesn't make much sense to me. I suppose that a fully diminished seventh chord is as diminished as you can get with a chord without it becoming a different chord, and a half diminished seventh chord is only halfway there. Who knows. Note the spelling of these chords:

G#ø7 = G# B D F# (R ♭3 ♭5 ♭7)
G#°7 = G# B D F (R ♭2 ♭5 ♭♭7)

The interval from G# to F sounds like a major sixth (6), but is in fact a diminished seventh (♭♭7). They are enharmonically equivalent, but the way that F is functioning is as a seventh. You get that note by stacking thirds after all, the same way we obtained the first seventh chord in this post.

G# A B C D E F

And this guy works the same way that the vii° triad does: it can substitute for V(7).

All of the diminished chords are good chords. Unfortunately, some musicians make it a pain in the ass. On jazz charts, you'll often see "G#°" where the person writing it means "G#°7", because they can't be arsed to write a single disambiguating character. It's shorthand, and most jazzers know what's up, but there is a remarkable amount of inconsistency. What do you do when you want the triad instead of the seventh chord? The weird one is "m7(♭5)", which is accepted parlance for some reason. I know a few people who have called the diminished triad "m♭5", which is a carryover from the "m7(♭5)" spelling. It's a freakin' diatonic triad, you get it the same exact way you get a major or minor triad: by harmonizing the major scale. Because the notation of chord symbols is not something that is standardized, and the people who write these things are typically not altogether interested in standardization (or even music education), there are a million ways to write all of those common chords out there.

[Mike Bunting]

Do you differentiate between authentic and non-authentic minor keys?

[Jim Broyles]

Why can't a m7b5 chord be obtained by staring with the m7 chord and lowering the 5th? The chord symbol tells you exactly how to spell it. What would correctly call it? Fully diminished includes a diminished 7th. How else would you put it? As you know, m7b5's and °7th's are not always interchangeable, so both have to exist. When you use 7 by itself in a chord symbol, it refers to the lowered diatonic seventh in all cases but the dim7 chord. Seems pretty clear to my way of thinking. You saying that the m7b5 ought to be called dim7 since it's a dim triad with the b7? In a way it makes sense, but what do you call the dim7 then? Maybe we ought to get logical and call it a dim6, because the diminished 7th degree sounds like the natural 6th. Only trouble is you screw up the staff notation of stacked minor thirds. What to do, what to do.....?

[Paleosporin]

Do you differentiate between authentic and non-authentic minor keys?

I'm not sure what you mean. Strictly speaking, I consider key and mode to be exclusive pieces of information. "Key of D" only means to me that D is the tonic note. After that, I tack on the modal information. D major, D minor, D dorian, D phrygian, D lydian, D something-that-isn't-a-diatonic-scale, D something-that-doesn't-fit-nicely-into-a-singlular-modal-interpretation, it's all key of D.

Why can't a m7b5 chord be obtain by staring with the m7 chord and lowering the 5th? The chord symbol tells you exactly how to spell it. What would correctly call it?

As I stated, "we don't say "Dm7(#7,#3)" for Dmaj7". I try to be consistent with my chord spelling. I start with the type of triad, then add the type of seventh, and finally list the extensions and alterations. If I see a chord such as C E G B D♭ F# A, I take the triad out first. C E G = C. It's a major triad. B is the major seventh, so we have Cmaj7 so far. The highest extension is a major thirteenth, so that replaces the number in the chord. We now have Cmaj13. There are some altered notes, so I list those in parentheses at the end of the chord symbol, starting from the highest alteration going to the lowest. Cmaj13(#11, ♭9). The ♭9 makes the chord kind of weird, but I'm only using it for the sake of an example.

If somebody throws B D F A C# at me, I'm going to do the exact same thing. First, isolate the triad. B D F, that's the diminished triad they taught you in Music 101, B°. It's not a minor triad. Unfortunately, we have to finagle the chord symbol when we add the seventh on, because the interpretation of "B°7" as "B D F A♭" is so widespread. In my opinion, "B°7" should be "B D F A" and we should use something like "B°°7" (or maybe something that looks less silly) for "B D F A♭," because it's the odd one out. However, I'm perfectly fine using the half-diminished symbol in the meantime, as it at least communicates that the triad is diminished. Anyway, after compromising, we have Bø7. The last tone is a ninth, and since it is not an altered ninth, it replaces that seventh in the chord symbol: Bø9.

You should be able to reduce any chord symbol down to one of four triads: M, m, °, +.

Fully diminished includes a diminished 7th. How else would you put it? As you know, m7b5's and °7th's are not always interchangeable, so both have to exist.

Of course. They're different chords. When I want to use a half-diminished seventh chord, I'll write ø7. When I want to use a fully-diminished seventh chord, I'll write °7. Similarly, if I want a minor seventh chord, I'll write m7, and when I want to use a dominant seventh chord, I'll write 7. There is no conflict when every chord quality has a clear and consistent definition.

When you use 7 by itself in a chord symbol, it refers to the lowered diatonic seventh in all cases but the dim7 chord. Seems pretty clear to my way of thinking. You saying that the m7b5 ought to be called dim7 since it's a dim triad with the b7? In a way it makes sense, but what do you call the dim7 then? Maybe we ought to get logical and call it a dim6, because the diminished 7th degree sounds like the natural 6th. Only trouble is you screw up the staff notation of stacked minor thirds. What to do, what to do.....?

Yeah, the prevalence of "°7" meaning "1 ♭3 ♭5 ♭♭7" kind of screws it up. I see where that comes from, but what can we do? I already get enough crap for writing "∆" on my charts.

[Jim Broyles]

As I stated, "we don't say "Dm7(#7,#3)" for Dmaj7".

With all due respect, this is a non sequitur, because, as you well know, the chords are named via the roots' major scales. There is no case where you would ever alter a minor scale's degrees to arrive at a chord name FWIW, I would spell that chord D F A C CX FX (X=##)

[Jim Broyles]

Furthermore, I'm not talking about someone throwing a group of notes at you and asking you to name the chord. I'm talking about seeing a chord symbol in a chart and arriving at the notes required to play the chord.

[Paleosporin]

With all due respect, this is a non sequitur, because, as you well know, the chords are named via the roots' major scales. There is no case where you would ever alter a minor scale's degrees to arrive at a chord name

But we don't say "Dmaj7(♭7, ♭3)" for D F A C.

FWIW, I would spell that chord D F A C CX FX (X=##)

If they were added chord members, I would indicate them as such with with an "add" particle. As long as I've been in music, I've always seen alterations indicated in parentheses at the end of the chord. Fmaj7(#11) is not F A C E G B♭ B.

Furthermore, I'm not talking about someone throwing a group of notes at you and asking you to name the chord. I'm talking about seeing a chord symbol in a chart and arriving at the notes required to play the chord.

There are no real conventions. However, I have no problem playing any chord symbol that makes sense. It's the chord symbols that don't make sense that bother me. I have a chart that one of my colleagues wrote with "Gmaj4" written on it. He probably means a G triad with an added fourth, but perhaps it's Gmaj11, Gsus4, Gmaj7sus4, Gadd4, who knows? I was there the first time he had a band play his chart, and the first thing the director did was stop the band and ask him "What the hell is a Gmaj4?," and then proceed to waste five minutes because this guy didn't have a good answer.

[Jim Broyles]

Read slowly: I'm not talking about naming the chord by looking at the notes. I'm talking about naming the chord tones by looking at the chord symbol. EX: See "Dm7" and play D F A C, not see D F A C and call it ???

I agree Gmaj4 makes no sense, but G4 is one I have come across. They want a G triad with a C added. The problem is that conventionally, the "maj" means a natural seventh, so Gmaj4 would be G B D F# C if we did it by convention.

Fmaj7(#11) is F A C E B. Why ever would it have a G or a Bb in it?

[A-board]

Wow! I thought my original post might be met with a yawn and a couple responses. Glad the naïve question could generate such a robust discussion.

[journeybear]

Glad? I would have thought think you'd be sorry, opening up this can of worms. Talk about overkill!

Did you ever get an answwer to your fairly straightforward question? If not, try this: C#° chord contains the notes C# E G - if you like the sound with A# add it.

For future reference, I suggest you buy Niles Hokkanen's book of chords, which is available in a convenient-sized booklet that will fit in a mandolin case's pocket. While it's tempting to believe that it's easy to ask what should be a simple question here, appearances may be deceiving.

[Paleosporin]

Read slowly: I'm not talking about naming the chord by looking at the notes. I'm talking about naming the chord tones by looking at the chord symbol. EX: See "Dm7" and play D F A C, not see D F A C and call it ???

I don't see the point of this exercise. Throw some chord symbols at me if you want to quiz me. Otherwise, the only things I will be able to provide are those I already have an answer for. Do you want a process? I look at the symbol and do the best I can with the information I have. I don't deal with bad chord symbols very often, because most of the musicians I hang out with luckily have their act together (although one of my buddies has a bad habit of calling out "Amaj7" when he means "A7"). This leadsheet has a bit of weirdness on it:



The first chord is what appears to be F9, with a circle around the 9. Or maybe that's a 7. Never seen that before, and I admit that I'm a little stumped. There are issues with the penmanship, but seeing how every other chord on the leadsheet is a seventh chord, I'm going to guess that the number should read "7," and judging by the rest of the harmony, the circle probably means that the seventh is major. In that case, the first chord is more commonly called "Fmaj7". Everything else is pretty standard, Eø7 is obviously E G B♭ D. E♭7 is E♭ G B♭ D♭. Dm7 is D F A C. D+7 is D F# A# C. The first three chords on the second system make sense of the circled 7 in my mind, because "Gm Gm∆ Gm7" would have a chromatic descent going G F# F, so it is realistic from a voice leading standpoint. This really isn't too bad other than the questionable notation of the major seventh chords. The "A♭7(+11)" on the seventh system is A C# E G D#, what I would call "A♭7(#11)". A lot of these things things are just differences in the symbols being used; chord symbol syntax is pretty constant otherwise.

♭/-
#/+
-/m
°/dim
∆/maj7
-7/m7

I agree Gmaj4 makes no sense, but G4 is one I have come across. They want a G triad with a C added. The problem is that conventionally, the "maj" means a natural seventh, so Gmaj4 would be G B D F# C if we did it by convention.

It's still a bad chord symbol. "Gmaj11" makes much more sense for G B D F# C, because we generally say that 2nd's, 4th's, and 6th's are 9th's, 11th's, and 13th's if there is a 7th in the chord. "G4" still isn't all that great. I'd think that it's either Gadd4 (G B C D), Gsus4 (G C D), or a quartal chord with G as the root (G C F B♭... however many fourths sound appropriate). For the last one, the most widely accepted notation I've seen is "GQ4", where G is the root, the suffix "Q" indicates that it is a quartal sonority, and "4" indicates how many tones there are in the chord. CQ3 would be C F B♭. For three-note quartal chords, you're more likely to see a tertian interpretation, "C7sus4," which gives you the same notes but does not necessarily capture the idea of a quartal chord, in my opinion.

Fmaj7(#11) is F A C E B. Why ever would it have a G or a Bb in it?

Ah, G is a typo. And my point is that the parenthesized chord members are alterations, not additional chord members. C13(♭9) contains only one ninth, and that ninth is flat. Your interpretation of my chord symbol "Dm7(#7, #3)" as "D F A C CX FX" treats the parenthesized members as added tones rather than alterations. But yes, it's a gibberish symbol.

[journeybear]

Eø7 is obviously E G B♭ D. E♭7 is E♭ G B♭ D.

I've been staying out of this because it's gotten to be way too much for me. But I couldn't help noticing a couple things. The latter first - looks like a typo. I believe you meant "E♭7 is E♭ G B♭ D♭." The former - I actually agree with you (in my undereducated common-sense way), as D is the dominant seventh tone in reference to the root of that chord. BUT, some people earlier (way, way earlier) asserted that the notation "°7" or even just "°" actually meant a double flatted seventh tone. Personally, if that is the intent, I would write this as "°6," which would be in keeping with the assertion voiced by some that the "°" designation meant - well, for E° - E G B♭ D♭ - that is, producing a chord pattern that could be called by any of its notes. I disagreed, believing that if a seventh is meant to be included, it should be so written, and not assumed or "understood" that is what was meant. (Besides, to my line of thinking, it should be written "°6," as that is the tone's position relative to the root.) Others disagreed with this, still others disagreed with them, and here we are.

So, to sum up - I agree with you on #1 above, and believe #2 above contains a typo.

Unless, that is, "ø7" means "major 7" rather than "diminished 7," in which case ... never mind.

[Paleosporin]

Yeah, it's a typo. E♭7 is E♭ G B♭ D♭. Major triad, minor seventh.

And sevenths should absolutely be written into the symbol if the chord is meant to have a seventh. The exception is in extended tertian chords, like Bm11 (B D F# A C# E), Emaj9 (E G# B D# F#), and G13 (G B D F A E), where the seventh is implicit in the chord suffix.

[Bertram Henze]

Code AND typos - ok, it's programming after all...

[AlanN]

Hey, it's the cafe, where:

old is new again
the simple is complex
a pick is not a pick

[Jim Broyles]

The point of the exercise is that you have to know what notes are in a chord in order to play it. I'm telling whoever needs to know how to do it and I have been since the 13th post in this thread. My entire point all thread has been how to see a chord symbol and derive the proper notes. I don't know about your experience, but in mine, the biggest hangup to actually playing, for the hobbyist and self-taught player, is lack of knowledge of basic theory. If more people knew basic theory - i.e., the intervals and triads of the major scale, how to harmonize it, and what to do when you see a chord symbol with all kinds of signs and numbers, their enjoyment of playing would increase dramatically.

[Bertram Henze]

It's all relative. I've heard that same feeling of deflation expressed by a person just after I was telling her some things about dominant progressions in pop songs.

She had gone through life until then imagining that songs were put together like little snowflakes where any chord could be placed next to any other as if they were colors in a painting, guided only by personal taste and whimsy, with each new song being like a tabula rasa, except when deliberate copying of another song was involved. And then I had a dim recollection of thinking that myself when I was a lot younger.

I guess everybody has had that experience at some point, but it is not exactly what I meant.

I am aware that in every genre there are building blocks, frequently re-used; but I am coming from ITM, where the building blocks are aural, the player recognising them by ear and mostly learning a new tune this way - hardly anything is written down, and then it's only a melody guideline. The apparent spontaneity here goes with its illiteracy, so to speak, the system behind it remains invisible. There is never any discussion about notation, at least none worth mentioning.

What I see here is totally different. The looks of the coded artefacts seem more interesting than the sounds they represent.