I still don`t believe it...

[Bernie Daniel]

Personally, I'd be happy to find some more young players who aren't in the Bluegrass Police Training Academy but still like bluegrass. The scene around here is almost entirely north of 60 and playing either very straight bluegrass or awful hippy cod-Irish stuff.

There is no Bluegrass Police Training Academy that I know of so I think there is little danger for young pickers. Now that's a relief!

[Willie Poole]

I held out what kind of jam session it was on purpose to see if anyone thought about this the same way as I did....It was a bluegrass open mic show and the jam session was going on in another part of the building.....I am sure those youngsters will probably become real good players, when it came my turn in the circle to sing and play a song most of them couldn`t follow the real simple bluegrass songs and after each of my songs they asked if I was a professional and said they liked what I did very much, so much that I was invited to sort of teach them some traditional bluegrass but I was only there for a month and only had two weeks of that time left.....

I didn`t post this to be putting down the newer pickers although I don`t like the way I see bluegrass going, I posted this just say I was shocked that these youngsters were playing an instrument with out knowing a thing about it`s history and trying to play bluegrass using musical terms etc and not by ear, I don`t memorize the 600 songs that I know and play, in my head I do have some musical understandings and use that to get the tune right, myself, I just can`t stand to hear any instrument just playing scales or what have you when they take a break in the middle of a song and that is where it seems that these youngsters are headed, maybe not because they want to but because they don`t know any better way to play the instrument except by scales...Most people rave over Tony Rice`s guitar playing and Dale Reno`s mandolin playing but I have never been able to tell what they are playing except on very few songs but if that is their style and it gets them gigs so be it...NO I DON`T WANT TO PLAY LIKE THEM EITHER....

Thanks for all of your comments, it`s nice to see that some people look at this the same as I do, no disrespect for those of you that don`t agree....BTW...Some one asked in what part of Florida this took place...It was in the central part, near Lakeland, a small town called Auburndale....

Come up and see me sometime this winter Journey Bear...

[Mike Bunting]

Keep the faith Willie. I run a little jam in a friend's restaurant/pub during the Sunday brunch and it's pretty traditional. It's basically my jam and I invite who I want. I got tired of the other jams in town where I had to follow others and play stuff I didn't like or with folks who don't know anything beyond I IV V. Nothing against all that, it's necessary but some of us needed an outlet to play what we really wanted to, so I started my own jam, with lots of those funny Monroe tunes etc and some old time stuff. The good part,, we have a young (23) banjo/dobro picker who excels who comes out when he can. He recently departed from his main band because the guitar man wanted to rock it up too much. He told me that he had already played in a punk band and wanted the real deal. It's really good to have an enthusiastic young fellow to pick with, he's really good and just rips up tunes like Wheel Hoss or Pike County Breakdown. Also, the audience has really supported us well too and like to hear the real deal. It's a blast to play in a situation like that.

[journeybear]

Come up and see me sometime this winter Journey Bear...

Oh no, sir, you should come down and visit me when it gets too cold up there.

Sure, there's a Bluegrass Police Training Academy. Where do you think these folks come from?

[Andy B]

"they liked what I did very much, so much that I was invited to sort of teach them some traditional bluegrass"

I think this is a very good sign--they knew the real stuff when they heard it and they wanted to learn more about it. I've met quite a few young players in recent years who were very excited about playing the music of Bill Monroe and other first generation grassers. And I am grateful to all the more experienced players who helped me learn (and are still helping).

[Beanzy]

It's all about respecting the music you want to approach.
There are stages in getting good at performing music and one of the hardest things to realise is that you may have become 'expert' in playing an instrument, but when you begin a new style you need to do so as a beginner. Respecting those who can play it well is a big part of starting out again when you move styles. It's not just techniques or tunes, it's deeper than those surface things.

From my past experience it's the same in classical or Irish music, people play from the dots or even by ear and get the length of the notes right and add a bit of dynamics and think they've cracked it or played it well. However after enough time you start to do what I think of as 'listening into' the music and realise bit by bit what you're missing or weren't getting.
It takes time but it's important not to avoid starting or stop after a dabble or you may not have the understanding dawn on you. If you grow up in a tradition you spend years listening even if you don't play, just like you learn any dialect in a language. With time and respect for those you're learning from it comes around. If there are a lot of dabblers and those who like what they hear but don't yet understand what makes it tick, then that's all good; as long as they're shown how to respect the music and those who play it.
In a way Willie you're looking at a field of enthusiastically growing weeds that needs clearing ploughing and sowing if it's to produce a good crop. Someone's got to do it and the field won't know what it's supposed to grow on its own.

[greg_tsam]

If that was true, our entire set would consist of Freebird.

OhMMMGee... This guy.

[journeybear]

If that was true, our entire set would consist of Freebird.

And what would be wrong with that? So many people ask for it, so few people actually play it. Give the public what they want!

[DataNick]

You mean like this...




Maybe Josh Williams can, but I won't go there. Wagon Wheel is my limit...LOL!

[journeybear]

Well, maybe more like this ...



... or maybe not.

Back when I was playing in a classic country duo, the guitarist usually responded to jokers shouting out "Free Bird!" with a certain hand gesture. I thought it might be more, ah, convivial to use comedy instead. I worked up two obviously silly responses - reggae and bluegrass. The reggae version was so goofy I never got past the first verse. The bluegrass version sometimes backfired on me, as people kind of got into it, but I had nowhere to go. But I did something none of the youtube clips of bluegrass versions I saw do - I jumped right in art a bluegrass tempo. All these clips I saw follow the Skynyrd model. Seems they could have tried a little harder. I'd be a little disappointed if I gave a damn.

[foldedpath]

BTW...Some one asked in what part of Florida this took place...It was in the central part, near Lakeland, a small town called Auburndale....

Ah, then you were still southwest of Orlando, and under the cultural/gravitational pull of the great Orlando area Disney/Universal/Sony Music Factory, which pumps out highly skilled kids with nowhere to go. The cultural "Southern USA" doesn't start in Florida until you're North of Orlando. And the closer to the Georgia border, the better.


Bluegrass is a regional style in the USA, like many other genres attempting to stay closer to the roots. How much Cajun music do you hear in the wider USA outside the area where it has its roots? How much TexMex outside the SouthWest? If you want deep respect for the music, there are many places where you can find that with Bluegrass. You just won't find it everywhere in this huge country, with such a diverse musical history. And you won't find it with kids that have been trained as general-purpose performers who haven't been steeped in the music, or really care about the music, because it's just one genre among a half-dozen others they're interested in.

[Petrus]

It's funny to refer to "traditional bluegrass" as it's a modern (mid-20th century) innovation based on earlier styles which we now call "old timey" (many of which are only from the mid-19th century themselves, if you want to call that old timey.) Monroe didn't even want to include a banjo in his group at first because of its minstrel / comedic associations. Scruggs auditioned, and Monroe was sufficiently impressed to let him in the band -- grudgingly, if we're to believe the story. Thus inadvertently making history in the process. (It's possible Monroe was just faking reluctance.)

The point being, he sort of went against tradition in the process of creating a new "tradition."

[Ivan Kelsall]

Bluegrass music,as any music genre is almost bound to do,will evolve into different 'styles' in the same way that other music genres have done. Whether you like it or not,i think it's a healthy thing to happen. I'm still a 100 % trad. Bluegrass fan & always will be,but there are other bands that i appreciate who playwhat might be termed 'recent developments in Bluegrass' ie. ''The Infamous Stringdusters'' & " Greensky Bluegrass" to name but 2. I don't like all their stuff,in the same way that i don't like some of the stuff that 'trad.' Bluegrass bands are doing these days,but there's some good stuff amongst what they do & i don't think that anybody could doubt their skill as musicians. But as in most things,it's a personal choice - if you don't like it,don't listen,
Ivan

[Ron McMillan]

The unquestioning awe and reverence afforded bluegrass is one of the less endearing characteristics of the Cafe.

I think bluegrass is wonderful and I respect Bill Monroe's vitally significant place in musical history, but bluegrass is just one, relatively minor form of modern folk/acoustic music, one with a fairly small following. I have read how exciting younger bands (example: Yonder Mountain String Band) suffer all sorts of grief for refusing to adhere to the stifling restrictions of 'real' bluegrass, and here on the cafe hardly a month goes by without stalwarts of the orthodoxy lining up to take swings at the world's greatest living mandolinist because he dares to dance with his upper body as he plays.

The mandolin world is a lot bigger than bluegrass. And the fact that bluegrass will change and grow and deviate from the Monroe path is both an inevitability and a seriously good thing.

[Petrus]

"Judas!"

[AlanN]

Willie mentions Dale Reno. He is one of those cats who can float either way. When he was younger, playing with his Dad and then later in The Reno Brothers, he mostly played it straight, with his breaks embellishing the melody, in his style. I really liked his playing. Tunes like Crosstie Junction, Clear Skies showcased some hot stylings that were in a class by themselves. In my mind, an under-rated and over-looked picker. Yes, notey. Yes, I dug it. For the past several years, he's been in a band called Hayseed Dixie. The little I have seen of them does little for me. ymmv, as we all like to say.

[Bernie Daniel]

The unquestioning awe and reverence afforded bluegrass is one of the less endearing characteristics of the Cafe.

I think bluegrass is wonderful and I respect Bill Monroe's vitally significant place in musical history, but bluegrass is just one, relatively minor form of modern folk/acoustic music, one with a fairly small following. I have read how exciting younger bands (example: Yonder Mountain String Band) suffer all sorts of grief for refusing to adhere to the stifling restrictions of 'real' bluegrass, and here on the cafe hardly a month goes by without stalwarts of the orthodoxy lining up to take swings at the world's greatest living mandolinist because he dares to dance with his upper body as he plays......

Hyperbole perhaps?

[Petrus]

I have read how exciting younger bands (example: Yonder Mountain String Band) suffer all sorts of grief for refusing to adhere to the stifling restrictions of 'real' bluegrass, and here on the cafe hardly a month goes by without stalwarts of the orthodoxy lining up to take swings at the world's greatest living mandolinist because he dares to dance with his upper body as he plays.

And play all that new-fangled stuff from that Bach guy.

[Mandoplumb]

All music must evolve, but the fundementals should remain. When the Country Gentlemen hit the scene they were miles from Monroe, Martin, Flatt &Scruggs but they were without a doubt bluegrass. Then look at what " country music" has become and tell me what is country about it. I hope bluegrass never sinks that low!!

[FLATROCK HILL]

... stalwarts of the orthodoxy....

If they'd make a M.C. ball cap with that phrase embroidered under the F-style logo I'd order a box of 'em.

[Givson]

Music is music. Be happy that these young folks are out playing music on traditional instruments and having fun. They could be getting into trouble elsewhere. Some may discover traditional bluegrass musicians and follow on that path. Others will build on their influences and create new styles. Remember that the originators of bluegrass were not strict traditionalists. They were innovators.

[Jesse Harmon]

Right-e-o! I think you may have tumbled into something. Maybe Willie and some others (maybe even yours truly) prefer to play music with folks who think of drinks in terms of fifths, not dirty martinis. I mean down to earth types. Could be stretching it, I dunno ...

When you start to talk about fifths in terms of drinking you can truly describe me as one of those "down to earth" fellas. One thing that bothers me about some of these discussions is how often sweeping generalizations happen on the basis of a single instance, perhaps some guy who is just a jerk, not representative of (for instance) a "guitar player" or a "classical musician". There are some here who finds it necessary to sneak in a low shot, ie (classical guitar players and their ilk, etc) Not meaning you Bertram, I didn't take that post that way although there it is, substitute "that red haired fella", or another unbelievable one I heard, that "Viet Nam vet". Jerks are just Jerks.

[journeybear]

There's been an acceleration in cultural evolution during the last century, since the advent of electronic media. Radio, movies, and television, and now the internet, expose people to cultures from faraway places and increase the choices of songs and genres and performers available to listeners in much greater numbers and much more rapidly than ever before. Genres attain traditional status - that is, become thought of as "traditional" or "classic," much more quickly as a result of this rapid change. For instance, what is considered classic country dates back only forty years or so, about the same for bluegrass. Rock and pop changed even faster, with a new era every several years - rockabilly, doo-wop, teen idols, British invasion, psychedelic, New Wave/punk/metal - have to stop there, because that's when I gave up and started listening to country in search of human voices and unaffected playing. I may be a bit off on this, but it seems that the advent of New Grass and Outlaw Country were at least partly the result of parallel evolution in those fields. Previously established performers had to adapt their styles to stay current, and newer performers were hailed as innovators. More changes have occurred since then, of course, and from today's standpoint people look back at even this fairly recent history as more traditional. I wonder whether the term traditional isn't a misnomer, and that what is really being expressed is a sort of reactionary sentiment, a desire to undo the evolution that has taken place since then.

I'm all for embracing the past, but not at the exclusion of looking toward the future. I learned a great deal through the process of digging into the roots of the music and musicians that fascinated me, tracing their origins to see where they came from. This is how I discovered the blues - exploring where some of the blues-rock songs I was digging came from, running down the source material by investigating the names in the songwriting credits and the liner notes. Similar sleuthing led me to learn about Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers, and the Carter family. I try to embrace and even emulate the music and musicians from back then when I play or write music and incorporate what I like about what they did into what I do, but I'm mostly trying to find and use my own voice (and avoid hitting clams). That's what they were doing too, you know; they just did it back some time ago.

The mandolin world is a lot bigger than bluegrass. And the fact that bluegrass will change and grow and deviate from the Monroe path is both an inevitability and a seriously good thing.

True on all counts. The mandolin is a very versatile instrument, capable of producing music spanning many genres, limited only by its physical nature and the imagination of its players. People who don't understand this, or think that it is meant only for bluegrass or country, haven't put enough thought into it. I'm a bit forgiving of the general public on this, as they have not been exposed to mandolin music much beyond those genres, and a few rock songs that have risen above the din. But Café members, who presumably have had personal experience with the instrument and its possibilities, I don't understand their unwillingness to accept anything other than rather narrowly defined uses. I have no problem with folks wanting to play bluegrass in its classic form, but I disagree with those who say that's all that's worth playing on the instrument, or that if you don't play it that way it ain't bluegrass.

The bottom line for me is whether the music one plays or hears is good and comes from the heart - hard to accurately define, but as a Supreme Court justice once said about another matter, I know it when I see it. Or hear it, in this case. This means building on the foundations laid down by those who came before, keeping an eye on the future. and doing your level best to stay as present as possible in the present. Sure, it takes some doing and keeping an open mind along with some taste and discernment, but that's what makes the journey worthwhile. I don't see the point in repeating the past; learn from it, of course, but the road leads forward, not back. As Casey Kasem used to sign off his show, "Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars."

[Tobin]

I am sure those youngsters will probably become real good players, when it came my turn in the circle to sing and play a song most of them couldn`t follow the real simple bluegrass songs and after each of my songs they asked if I was a professional and said they liked what I did very much, so much that I was invited to sort of teach them some traditional bluegrass but I was only there for a month and only had two weeks of that time left.....

I didn`t post this to be putting down the newer pickers although I don`t like the way I see bluegrass going, I posted this just say I was shocked that these youngsters were playing an instrument with out knowing a thing about it`s history and trying to play bluegrass using musical terms etc and not by ear

I'm glad you posted the rest of the story. I think it's an important example of something many of you may not understand. Not everyone has been immersed in true bluegrass tradition. These youngsters obviously like the sound of bluegrass and want to play it. They are willing to learn, and asked for your help. That's a good sign, but you can't exactly fault them for not knowing it already. They grew up in a different world than many of us did, and many of the things we take for granted would be foreign to them.

It would be different if they intentionally disregarded the history and provenance of bluegrass because they felt it was unimportant. But they obviously came from a different musical learning approach, and have been trying to use the tools at their disposal (perhaps unsuccessfully). Their willingness to learn is promising. But it could be that they have previously been in a state of ignorance, not even knowing what to ask. A classic case of "I don't know what I don't know". And while it does seem silly that they've never heard of Lloyd Loar (which would seem to be easily discovered with minimal Googling of bluegrass subjects), it's hardly surprising. Some folks just want to play music, not geek out on history and tradition. They may not understand the importance of history and tradition, because nothing else in their lives has taught them that it matters.

I was in the same boat - and still am, to some degree. While I don't consider myself a "youngster" any more (I'm 40 now... gulp!), and I did grow up in a rural setting as the son of a preacher who was heavily involved in gospel music and such, I still didn't get any kind of ingrained education on bluegrass. Growing up in the '70s and '80s, I wanted to be one of the cool kids who was into rock and all that. It was only later in life that I came back to my roots, as it were, and found a new appreciation for gospel, bluegrass, old-time, etc. But what I have realized is that there isn't any clear way to learn. It's almost as if it's a closely-held secret that you have to be in a club to get access to.

Not that I'm implying anyone hides knowledge or excludes others. But since bluegrass is a niche genre in today's world, and it's not a common tradition in certain areas, it's incredibly difficult to get real exposure to live bluegrass music, jams, etc. A lot of people resort to buying books, or doing online learning, which naturally makes them focus on things like scales and reading music/tabs instead of learning by ear. How else do you expect them to learn when they don't live in bluegrass-dominated territory?

[Jeff Mando]

Great discussion, friends! A couple quotes/song titles come to mind: "Don't get above your raisin'" (raising) or the famous "That ain't no part of nothin'"! To me a heart-felt story told simply is the key to Bluegrass. How about, "I'm gonna sleep with one eye open"? A little bit of humor thrown in for good measure. How about "Molly and Ten Brooks"? I mean who today would think about writing a song about two race horses? Great stuff! Sure, it's corny and a little dated, but that's what's great about it.

Bach & Beethoven were great, but I'm not into that. Not into Heavy Metal, either. Not into scales played at lightning speeds. So-called virtuoso stuff--well, I'm thinking that real virtuosity is in being subtle, throwing in a few quick notes before the chop, like Monroe! Everybody likes fancy pickin', I just don't like "note-y" players. Thile doing Bach doesn't do it for me, but I can certainly give him a pass since he grew up in Bluegrass. Nothing wrong with trying to expand your audience and make a living. Same with Ricky Skaggs, Keith Whitley, and Alison Krauss--they tried to work in a larger arena and all had success and entertained a lot of people with their music--but it was no longer Bluegrass, at that point. Needless to say, IMHO.