I still don`t believe it...

[Neoclinus]

I too have to chime in with a word of defense for my 'younger generation'. My view might be a tad biased as one who has always had a deep interest in history and tradition, devouring piles of history books as a child (whether I understood any of it or not...) and eventually carrying that intersest over to my work, as a captain and rigger of pre-turn of the century sailing vessels. I agree that the technological craze and unceasing assaults on the senses that so often seems to be taking over can certainly be depressing, but from what I've seen in my little corner of the west coast and my more recent haunts on the other side of the pond, there seems to be a huge revival of traditional music among other young people, as well as a generally more back-to-roots approach in other aspects of life as well. I don't think I'm alone in feeling the high pace may have missed something along the way and trying to bring a bit of history back. Sure, maybe some attempts are more effective than others, but I think underneath the white noise that this generation is actually doing pretty well with regard to an interest in tradition and history. Not to mention how much I absolutely loathe and despise that patronizing generalization of 'you kids these days'. All that does is further alienate anyone who might have a potential interest and willingness to learn from someone with more life experience who could help to expand their mind. The things I learned that made me who I am can't be found on the internet, and I don't know where I'd be if I hadn't had the good fortune from an early age to be taken under the wings of many incredibly talented older folks who talked to me like a person who wanted to learn rather than as a child who wouldn't understand anyway.

One thing that irritates me to no end though is this all-or-nothing approach to traditional music that I can't help but feel does more harm than good. As others have said, appreciating 'authentic' bluegrass is fine, but there are more reasons than one to play music. I see no end to criticism of progressive groups and musicians like Thile, and it completely misses the point. Incredible musicians are dismissed out of hand as 'garbage' because they don't conform to a narrow, rigid, and completely arbitrary set of rules of what's acceptable. I love proper old time music, but I also appreciate good music of almost any genre for the sake of the music, for the talent of the playing and arrangement, and, dare I say it, originality, when it's genuine. Criticism of emerging styles can often says more about the critic than the subject, and we're in danger of painting ourselves as a bunch of uptight coots if we're not careful. I don't listen to much popular contemporary music, but it always makes me happy to see a banjo or mandolin in something a bit more mainstream. As the interest grows so does the virtuosity, and I can't wait so see what happens with the styles down the road. And in between playing along I'll happily play 'roustabout' and 'pretty little dog' to make sure nobody forgets how...

[jaycat]

I couldn't stand it, the automatic transmission was invented by a guy by the name of Oscar Banker! Interesting fellow, sounds like he would have been interesting to have known!
So Jaycat, will this pearl of wisdom improve my knowledge of bluegrass music or just be one more stray bit of information to share when at the saloon?

I always say: "take two and hit to left."

[bobby bill]

The new Asian fusion restaurant does not undermine the sanctity of Myrtle's home-style cooking down the street. Gay marriage does not undermine the sanctity of Billy Bob's fourth heterosexual marriage. And Chris Thile's bobbing and weaving rendition of a Bach partita for solo violin does not undermine the sanctity of the giant who wrote it 300 years ago.

There's good music and bad music. Don't listen to bad music.

(I would end it there but, dammit, I like to listen to bad music, too.)

[Randi Gormley]

Couple of thoughts while reading this over the past few days: within any large group (say, "youngsters") you'll find those who break away from the crowd for various reasons. Some of them gravitate to the past the way some gravitate to the future. I read a lot of books from the 1920s because that era fascinates me and it has for nearly 40 years, for instance. So among any group of musicians, there will be those who absorb everything they can and carry on the tradition. There will be a group who can't get enough of the next edgy thing, and there will be those most comfortable with what they've heard all their lives, whether it's 80s pop or Bill Monroe. I found it interesting that the guys Willie met with were interested in learning what he had to teach -- the traditions. It means they don't discount the past, they were just unaware.

Coming to tradition from the top, as opposed to coming from the ground up, brings with it different impressions. There are some people who parachute into a tradition who immediately appoint themselves the keepers of the flame and others who see it as the jumping off point for something different. I've found there are no lack of both types in music that has a rich past, be it bluegrass or ITM. I do find that like tends to cluster to like and the traditionalists usually find a way to sequester themselves from those whose style they find inimical.

[Jeff Mando]

heterosexual marriage.

And Chris Thile's bobbing and weaving rendition of a Bach partita for solo violin

I would end it there but, dammit, I like to listen to bad music, too.)

Heterosexual marriage--glad we have a term to clarify that, now!

Thile doing Bach. I ain't buying it--an amazing feat, (not to be confused with his dancing feet!) much like a circus trick. Seems like we've seen this before--oh yeah, Yngwie J. Malmsteen in the 80's doing a fugue with a classical orchestra! Don't get me wrong--amazing talent on both, just makes me yawn, that's all......and ask, why? (when ya can do "Rocky Road Blues"}

Listening to bad music--I know what you mean! A guilty pleasure thanks to youtube, something like watching "epic fail" videos! (although I feel I lose a few IQ points each time I watch 'em)

[sgrexa]

The unquestioning awe and reverence afforded bluegrass is one of the less endearing characteristics of the Cafe.

I think bluegrass is wonderful and I respect Bill Monroe's vitally significant place in musical history, but bluegrass is just one, relatively minor form of modern folk/acoustic music, one with a fairly small following. I have read how exciting younger bands (example: Yonder Mountain String Band) suffer all sorts of grief for refusing to adhere to the stifling restrictions of 'real' bluegrass, and here on the cafe hardly a month goes by without stalwarts of the orthodoxy lining up to take swings at the world's greatest living mandolinist because he dares to dance with his upper body as he plays.

The mandolin world is a lot bigger than bluegrass. And the fact that bluegrass will change and grow and deviate from the Monroe path is both an inevitability and a seriously good thing.

Wow, an interesting thread on the Cafe' This is great! I did not have time to read it all so I hope I am not being repetitive and apologize in advance if that is the case. I could take issue with some of what was said above, but it would be meaningless and pointless as we are all very diverse and have formed our own complex interests, beliefs and opinions and tend to stick to those even when logic and common sense dictates otherwise. Personally, I have recently become very open minded to almost any new idea and welcome change and other ideologies of thought in both music and life. We live in an amazing time. Never before in history have such technological advances been made to human civilization in such a short time. The internet is still very much in it's infancy, and history will show this time to be of great importance no doubt. If we even have much history left to record, which is also an interesting concept but a topic for another forum. That said, it is important to sometimes sit back and try to take in just how much change is occurring and reflect on how it affects you and what decisions you will make to enhance and make your life better, interesting, and "fulfilled". This is very deep stuff, stretching way beyond how one might view the idiosyncrasies of bluegrass and how it should be played in order to preserve the tradition. I think it is equally important to preserve the tradition and also to explore new paths and enhance and create any musical platform, whether it be bluegrass, jazz, rock, etc. Both concepts are equally important, but it is up to you to decide which you will take. You could elect to choose both, which is kind of the approach I try to take. Once you become aware of your limitations, you are well on your way to removing them.

Sean

[bobby bill]

Heterosexual marriage--glad we have a term to clarify that, now!

It's a retronym - like "acoustic guitar."

[Bertram Henze]

It's a retronym - like "acoustic guitar."

If retronyms are the answer - why not "The Bluegrass"?

[sacausey]

"Second, it seems to me that music in general is a living and breathing things that waxes and wanes. New blood leads to new sounds. If something loses the ability to change, it by and large loses the ability to survive.

Third, yes, maintaining the epic and old time traditions has merit. Truly, it does. But just as rightly, push the paradigm forward."

These two ideas are important. Music, as an art form, should reflect the culture that makes it. As culture changes, the music does too. It's not a bad thing. It's what keeps the music connected to the people that make it.

I teach physics at a high school. I get a lot of the band kids in my classes. Many of them love playing stuff by Gershwin and Schuman but there is a large group that doesn't. For them, playing that music is just an exercise. I think that's the end result of playing music that's not connected to you. It's just something to do, not a personal expression. Something is lost there.

The good news is, as long as there are people that care about maintaining a certain style, it will stick around. I don't think traditional bluegrass is going anywhere (and that's good). I also think new forms are going to keep developing (and that's good too).

[Tom Smart]

Thile doing Bach. I ain't buying it--an amazing feat, (not to be confused with his dancing feet!) much like a circus trick

Why don't you favor us with your insights into today's truly authentic performers of Bach? Those of us who love Bach but have been bamboozled by Thile's circus-trick recordings would be grateful to hear your recommendations for interpretations worthy of our attention.

[greg_tsam]

Play what you want, how you want but if I don't like it I might have to get up and get some water. Btw, the Anti-bluegrass police are just as annoying.

[OldSausage]

Play what you want, how you want but if I don't like it I might have to get up and get some water. Btw, the Anti-bluegrass police are just as annoying.

How about them Anti-"Anti-bluegrass police" police?

[greg_tsam]

Dat dere ain't no part uh nutin', Jethro.

[journeybear]

Typically, there is no oversight. That's an oversight. Such cases are kicked to the Bureau of Infernal Affairs.

[Ky Slim]

"... and this bird you cannot change.."

[Ellen T]

"Once you become aware of your limitations, you are well on your way to removing them."

I want the T-shirt.

[Petrus]

How about them Anti-"Anti-bluegrass police" police?

Only if Sting is involved.

[Petrus]

Thile doing Bach. I ain't buying it--an amazing feat, (not to be confused with his dancing feet!) much like a circus trick. Seems like we've seen this before--oh yeah, Yngwie J. Malmsteen in the 80's doing a fugue with a classical orchestra! Don't get me wrong--amazing talent on both, just makes me yawn, that's all......and ask, why? (when ya can do "Rocky Road Blues"}

I guess "why" is because he felt like doing it. That he did it well was recompense enough. You make him sound like that chess-playing horse from the 1800s (which may be something I just made up, for all I know.) Bela Fleck does a great Bach on the banjo. An Willie Nelson did some Bach on his battered old guit-box many years ago. Bach's the man!

[Charlieshafer]

I guess "why" is because he felt like doing it.

And that's pretty much all that needs be said. While this is fun to discuss, it's nothing but fun. The tiny sub-niche that represents the Cafe here, or the Baroque Flute Society, or the Jug Band Blues Preservation Club, is completely irrelevant to the outside world. We're involved because, like Petrus says, "we feel like doing it." If any of the various "style police" think anyone actually listens to them but themselves, I think they're kidding themselves.

I want to see kids playing instruments, first, for a whole variety of reasons. Then I want to see them grow up, and use their imagination and play stuff I haven't heard before. The stuff I already have hear? Well, I've heard that. I don't care what they come up with niche-wise, or style-wise. I'll like some, dislike some, but who cares? Are they using their brains? Having fun? Learning stuff?

Down the road a short bit, let them even try to make a buck at it for a year or so. There's no better class on creative thought, entrepreneurship, social-media marketing, and technology than practicing, producing your own cd, and then trying to tour a little and sell a few. All the MBA's I deal with couldn't get past step one.

Oh, and Professor Longhair invented rock and roll.

[Willie Poole]

I have read every post on this thread and some of you make a lot of sense but some of you say you want to see people take music and expand it into other forms of music, well I cringe every time I hear some one sing our National Anthem and put a lot of extra notes and vibratos in there that wasn`t there to begin with, is that what you want in all of your music? That is why I say lets preserve bluegrass and play it like it was played originally, just putting a band together with a guitar, banjo, mandolin and a bass doesn`t make you a bluegrass band it is the way it is played, I know some of it is twangy and I must admit that I don`t like all of the traditional bluegrass that I hear, look at it like this, most of us play bluegrass songs that were written as far back as the late fortys and those songs are still being played at most festivals, I can not think of one new "Bluegrass or country song" that has stayed around for more than six or seven months, (I know there are some but I just don`t recall the names of them as they were so few) the new style just don`t enthuse a lot of people like the older tunes did...I remember when Webb Pierce had the #1 song on the hillbilly hit parade for close to a year, that won`t happen with the way music is changing now days, wouldn`t any of you like to see a song or two that is popular when you are old and gray and singing with your grand kids...I do and I do exactly that....

I guess I did expect too much when I thought that any mandolin player playing bluegrass would know who Lloyd Loar was, and the Model T Ford had somewhat of an automatic transmission, BUT THAT WAS EVEN BEFORE MY TIME...but when I was learning to drive I earned what I could about cars since I couldn`t afford to have someone else do the repairs so I learnd to do them myself...

I guess its time to put this thing to rest and I am glad to read where some of you enjoyed this thread, I`ll think up something else pretty soon to get everyone all excited....I still say "play what you like but please don`t call this new stuff 'bluegrass"", can`t someone think of a good name to call it, one fellow wanted to call it "Bad rock and roll", I like that....

Willie

[Petrus]

That is why I say: let's preserve bluegrass and play it like it was played originally; just putting a band together with a guitar, banjo, mandolin and a bass doesn`t make you a bluegrass band; it is the way it is played ...

Agreed! No question whatsoever.

I still say "play what you like but please don`t call this new stuff 'bluegrass"", can`t someone think of a good name to call it, one fellow wanted to call it "Bad rock and roll", I like that....

I second that emotion! People shouldn't call something "bluegrass" if it's clearly not, they should come up with their own terms. That's why we have newgrass, thrashgrass, jugpunk, technograss, etc.

[OldSausage]

But who gets to choose where Bluegrass begins and ends? No one person, not even Bill.

[multidon]

Who gets to decide where bluegrass begins and ends? Why, the Bluegrass Police of course!

Before daring to call anything Bluegrass, one must fill out and submit form bg/1a-q to your local Bluegrass Police precinct station. Don't forget to submit a recording and a picture of your group. The picture is an absolute necessity so the BGPD can insure there are not any newfangled electrical-fied instruments being used, or anything else that ain't no part of nothin'. If you submit all the required materials you should hear within 6 to 8 weeks whether your music can wear the "bluegrass" moniker.

[Mark Wilson]

That is why I say lets... play it like it was played originally

I can just imagine back when Bill and his band were getting started, that there were folks who had that same thought when they heard Bill's band ramping up those old songs.

I know what you're saying tho, I prefer the way the old bands did it myself.

[dcoventry]

My band, for example, consists of me and 4 male 50 and 60-something contractors. The guys want to play Grateful Dead songs, I want to play Master of Bluegrass. Go figure.

The GD catalog is not a bad one to draw from, of course. Cumberland Blues, Black Peter, Dire Wolf, Ripple, Brokedown Palace, Candyman, High Time, Althea, Beat It on Down the Line, Big Railroad Blues, Brown Eyed Woman, Baby Blue.

There are more of course, but I have played all of these on mando and they work well and easily. Amongst them, there are some really fine melodies and word-craft.