Montana Gibson Mandolin Specifications

[DataNick]

To the Cafe community and anyone else at large:

Several of us on this forum either own or are interested in Gibson Mandolins made in Bozeman, MT from roughly 1988-1997. What is not at all clear about these mandolins are the specifications used to build them. While there are numerous sources for Flatiron mandolins from the same period made side by side to the Gibsons in the same plant, there seems to be a dearth of information re:the Gibsons.

We realize that this tends to be in the area of geeky minutia, but hopefully being a member of the Cafe allows you to understand our pre-occupation with subjects like this. After scouring multiple threads about this subject, the most common spec alluded to is the neck joints (tenon-mortise with bolt). As the proud owner of a 1994 Gibson F5L (Fern) I would like to nail down the specs of this mandolin, and unfortunately I nor others cannot seem to find any previous catalogs or web pages, or any other source of info. My mandolin is a great example of fine workmanship and great tonal characteristics and I would like to know all that I can regarding this instrument.

I am most interested in each model's (F5G, F5L, A5G, A5L, F5V) complete specs (tonewoods, type of bridge, bracing patterns, fretboard specs, tuners, nut, finish/binding, frets, etc. etc) Of interest also would be the process of construction.

So if you have specific knowledge of model info, any catalog resources, or if you or someone you know used to work at the Bozeman facility, etc. we would love to hear from you and finally codify all of this once and forever.

Your contributions are solicited, welcomed, and appreciated greatly!

Thank You in advance!

Nick

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Had two of those in '90, a '92 F5L and a '93 F5 custom, the latter with way more responsive sound. Both very nicely made. Custom features of my "F5 Custom" were a flower pot instead of a fern inlay, maple neck and end block, no pick guard and glued-in screws (!) to "hold" the pearl buttons on the tuner shafts. Also, it had a very shallow neck angle. General differences to the 2000+ Ferns: The bolted-on neck, of course; different top and back graduation (the back arch being more pointed), the tailpieces were of brittle brass (which actually cracked on a friend's mando). The bridges were much lighter and thinner with a tendency to bend. The bindings were grained ivoroid. "The Gibson" inlay seemed somewhat large, and the script (a late '20s open style as on recent Ferns) not an accurate copy of older scripts. Most script inlays, though not all, did't have the "correct" angle. I only saw Schaller tuners with their original large diameter bushings. Spirit varnish, X-braces, silver plated metal parts (on the Monroe model), flower pot inlays and curved fingerboards were exceptions.

[DataNick]

Henry,

Thank you for the reply! Are you saying that the Montana Ferns (F5L) have a Spirit varnish and not a lacquer finish and that the bracing pattern is x-braced versus parallel braced? Those are huge revelations for me if true.

Regarding the tuners, I figured that at least on mine that they were Schaller. What you say about the bridges is a bit disconcerting, however mine seems to be holding up quite well. Also do you know if the fretboards on the F5L were flat or radiused? Mine has a slight radius, others say flat. Thanks again for the comments/observations!

[FLATROCK HILL]

Spirit varnish, X-braces, silver plated metal parts (on the Monroe model), flower pot inlays and curved fingerboards were exceptions.

Are you saying that the Montana Ferns (F5L) have a Spirit varnish and not a lacquer finish and that the bracing pattern is x-braced versus parallel braced?

DataNick...I think 'exceptions' is the key word in that first statement.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Henry,

Thank you for the reply! Are you saying that the Montana Ferns (F5L) have a Spirit varnish and not a lacquer finish and that the bracing pattern is x-braced versus parallel braced? Those are huge revelations for me if true.

Regarding the tuners, I figured that at least on mine that they were Schaller. What you say about the bridges is a bit disconcerting, however mine seems to be holding up quite well. Also do you know if the fretboards on the F5L were flat or radiused? Mine has a slight radius, others say flat. Thanks again for the comments/observations!

Montana F5s were generally lacquer, some were varnished, spirit varnish that is, a bit different from the later Charlie Derrington oil varnish. Also, x-braces are exceptions (I remember someone in the MC stating that they made 3 x-braced mandos in 1996). Fingerboards, at least all I've seen, were generally flat. Congrats on your stable bridge, Nick.

[DataNick]

Thanks Guys!

Here's what we have so far for the F5L "Fern"

Top: Sitka Spruce
Sides/Back: Maple
Neck: Maple
Neck Joint: Tenon-Mortise with bolt
Headblock/Tailblock: Mahagony
Nut: Mother of Pearl (MOP)
Fingerboard: Ebony and flat, with MOP position dots and elevated extension
Bridge: Two piece ebony
Binding: white-black-white grained ivoroid.
Tuners: Schaller with their original large diameter bushings, gold-plaited
with pearloid buttons
Headstock Inlay:"The Gibson" inlay seemed somewhat large, and the script (a late '20s open style as on recent Ferns) not an accurate copy of older scripts
Finish: Cremona style lacquer
Endpin: Ebony
Bracing: parallel
Tuned sound chambers
Tailpiece: 20's style gold plaited


If the above is correct then the specs really did not change much from the original F5L specs that Roger Siminoff documents.

Keep the posts coming...!

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Forgot to mention, bridge thumb wheels and threaded studs are both brass, threads are metric. (Vintage studs were nickel silver; recent Gibson studs are steel, both non-metric).

[DataNick]

Thanks again Henry!

FYI, I talked to Walter Carter on the phone and he said to his knowledge there is no Gibson catalog of mandolins that would have the specs in them from this era (Bozeman, MT). Though there are Flatiron catalogs from this era floating around (btw Mr. Carter said he took the pics for them), no Gibson catalogs. Why? Who knows?

Anyway, reverse engineering the specs apparently is the only way to get it done. We should be grateful for the internet and online specs that we can reference these days!

BTW: still missing the frets (brand, type & size)

Sure would be nice if someone from that era who worked in the Bozeman facility would chime in!

[pheffernan]

Sure would be nice if someone from that era who worked in the Bozeman facility would chime in!

Nick, have you considered contacting Steve Carlson? He's been active on the board in the past, although he hasn't been since last Christmas: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/me...-Steve-Carlson. Might Bruce Weber have the answers: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/me...Bruce-D-Weber?

[DataNick]

Thanks Pat!

I'll take those suggestions under advisement. I sent you a PM for us to discuss.

[Robert Smyth]

I've got a 1994 Gibson F-5L Fern, serial number 4695079, signed by Bruce Weber, that I've had for over ten years now. I'd be curious how other F-5Ls from that era weigh up. Mine weighs 2.5 pounds with an Allen tailpiece and fingerrest installed. There were significant finish cracks on mine when I got it but I do know the previous owner didn't really take care of it very well (told story of dropping it on the lower point which broke off the binding). Anybody else have finish cracking?

The upper part of my bridge which rests on the thumbwheels has sunk over the years but I just take it off and sand it flat again, making sure I don't lose sight of the string grooves!

Battle scars aside, I always get comments about how great it sounds...it feeds my soul like no other instrument I have!

Oh, yeah, I've refretted it with EVO Gold fretwire...highly recommended!

[DataNick]

Good to hear from you Robert!

My 94 F-5L Fern is serial# 4753129, signed by I think Dennis Ballian (hard to make out). As we talked before, mine has the finish cracks all over to the point of significant peeling in spots. It looks like the mando got wet, at least that's what I and 2 luthiers who have examined it think. My bridge is OK, knock on wood, and the sound/tonal characteristics are killer, especially for Bluegrass. Tom Mullen, formerly of the Bluegrass Cardinals and Doug Dillard's band, proclaimed it a "hoss" and one of the best he's ever played including 4 or 5 Loars!

Oh and I re-fretted mine upon purchase in late May this year with the Jescar EVO gold 0.80 fret-wire...that fret-wire is the best thing going in my book!

This whole experience has got me thinking of starting a Facebook page "Gibson F-5L Fern Registry" a-la Carles Hicks Master Model registry. I'll look for input, comments on the idea. No idea on the weight of mine...keep the posts coming!

[tiltman]

I've got a 1996 F-5V that I've owned for about 10 years.
SN=5977119
Fern inlay, flat fingerboard, varnish finish (I've been told that is what the 'V' stands for).
Signed by Bruce Webber.
I never intended to keep it this long but whenever I test drive mandolins I honestly can't find one that sounds better.

Thank you for gathering this info, Nick.

Kirk Miller
Portland, OR

[DataNick]

You're Welcome Kirk!

Any pics?

Could we assume that the specs on your F-5V are the same as the F-5L except for the spirit varnish finish on yours versus the lacquer finish on the F-5L?

Thanks for posting...

[Bernie Daniel]

I've got a 1994 Gibson F-5L Fern, serial number 4695079, signed by Bruce Weber, that I've had for over ten years now. I'd be curious how other F-5Ls from that era weigh up. Mine weighs 2.5 pounds with an Allen tailpiece and fingerrest installed. There were significant finish cracks on mine when I got it but I do know the previous owner didn't really take care of it very well (told story of dropping it on the lower point which broke off the binding). Anybody else have finish cracking?

The upper part of my bridge which rests on the thumbwheels has sunk over the years but I just take it off and sand it flat again, making sure I don't lose sight of the string grooves!

Battle scars aside, I always get comments about how great it sounds...it feeds my soul like no other instrument I have!

Oh, yeah, I've refretted it with EVO Gold fretwire...highly recommended!

Robert instead of sanding the top and making the saddle even weaker why don't you don't you instead add ebony (or rosewood) as reinforcement on the bottom side? That would be a permanent solution and it would look neat and no one would see the repair.

One of the big questions I have always had about this whole era is why did Gibson buy Flatiron in the first place? By 1978, Gibson had made huge strides, with Roger Siminoff's help, back to building great mandolins again. The F-5L was a pretty good mandolin after all.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Bernie - From what i've gleaned over the years i've been on here is that 'Flatiron' were building excellent mandolins for far less than the Gibson ones,as good as those might have been. Gibson,realising that their market share was being eroded,decided to buy out the competition. At least the cash generated by 'Flatiron' sales would be going into the Gibson coffers.
I've only had one experience of a Montana built / Bruce Weber signed Gibson & it was a sonic disaster !. It belonged to a young Guy fromthe Czech.Republc who was over here with the band he played with.We traded mandolins for a while. I played his Gibson & he played my Weber "Fern". I almost had to drag it back off him. It was far superior in tone to the Gibson. I'll qualify my criticism by saying that the setup 'might' have been lousy,the strings old & the bridge far from suitable. Although it played easily,it was a long way from sounding good. Maybe a good mandolin that needed some TLC,
Ivan

[lenf12]

Here's a '94 F-5L signed by Steve Carlson that used to live at our house. Extremely fine mandolin that we sold to a very deserving player/collector.



Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[DataNick]

Thanks Len...a Blondie at that!

And Steve Carlson was still around in 1994, interesting...

[Bernie Daniel]

Very cool pic Ivan what was the year?
On the Montana Gibson's may have been set up because I have had my hands on more than a dozen of the Montana Gibson/Flatiron twins and they have all been really fine mandolins.

I got to play a Carlson Montana Gibson when we were up on Prince Edward Island this summer -- sure did not expect to see one there --but it was a really great mandolin. I inquired about its availability but it was keeper for the owner. I was not surprised!

Of course Webers are just great too. I have both and like them both.

The cost of production aspect is a something I had not thought about and it makes sense.

[Bernie Daniel]

Here's a '94 F-5L signed by Steve Carlson that used to live at our house. Extremely fine mandolin that we sold to a very deserving player/collector.



Len B.
Clearwater, FL

What a beauty! Blonde before blonde was cool?

[Robert Smyth]

One of the big questions I have always had about this whole era is why did Gibson buy Flatiron in the first place? By 1978, Gibson had made huge strides, with Roger Siminoff's help, back to building great mandolins again. The F-5L was a pretty good mandolin after all.

The story I heard was that at the 1987 NAMM show, everyone was flocking to the Flatiron booth so Gibson bought Flatiron and moved their mandolin operations to Montana to get their production quality back up. Ten years later Gibson wanted to move back to Nashville but Bruce didn't want to leave Montana so he started up Weber at that point.

[Robert Smyth]

Robert instead of sanding the top and making the saddle even weaker why don't you don't you instead add ebony (or rosewood) as reinforcement on the bottom side? That would be a permanent solution and it would look neat and no one would see the repair.

Hey Bernie, I'd already sanded my saddle and presumed that it was done flexing. So far, the saddle has stayed pretty straight. The parts sanded were at the ends near the post holes so I don't think it weakened the saddle much further. Adding reinforcement to the bottom still would have required me to straighten out the top of the saddle anyway and besides, my action is pretty low so don't have much room on the underside of the saddle for reinforcement.

[DataNick]

As an aside, one of my Facebook friends is reporting that the high end Brick n' Mortar stores and pawn shops are telling folks no interest in taking mandolins that you'd like to sell them, unless they're a Gibson or Gilchrist...The Gibson name is a wise investment!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Bernie - Re.the year the mandolin was built,i haven't a clue. I was however surprised at seeing Bruce Weber's name inside. I was totally ignorant of the fact that BW had ever worked for Gibson. I was only 2 years into mandolin playing & my knowledge of mando.'stuff' was very poor.I will say thatthere was nothing wrong with the 'build' standard,but the mandolin was 'dead' & toneless,sounds a bit like old strings & a bad set up doesn't it ?. The only mandolin that was even worse (IMHO), was a pre-war Gibson F4 belonging to a friend of mine & bought many years back from Mandolin Bros. The bridge was the size of a log - thick & heavy, & the action was way too low even for a good bridge. Considering that my friend had built a couple of really nice acoustic guitars himself in the past,i really couldn't make any comment to him re.the lousy sound of his mandolin. Sometimes it's better to hold one's opinion to one's self,
Ivan

[Bernie Daniel]

Hey Bernie, I'd already sanded my saddle and presumed that it was done flexing. So far, the saddle has stayed pretty straight. The parts sanded were at the ends near the post holes so I don't think it weakened the saddle much further. Adding reinforcement to the bottom still would have required me to straighten out the top of the saddle anyway and besides, my action is pretty low so don't have much room on the underside of the saddle for reinforcement.

OK well it it ever comes up again here is what I did for a sagging mandocello saddle --CAUTION THIS POST IS OT!!.
1) I trimmed out my piece of ebony support for underneath the saddle. I let it be thicker, longer and wider by just a tab (1/32" - 1/16") then add a thin layer of epoxy to each mating surfaces (saddle and piece).

2) Then put them together and put the saddle and reinforcement in the shop vice (both sides of the jaws "padded" with a thin piece of softwood) and then SLOWLY tightened the vice until the saddle was straight and the reinforcement piece was fully mated and under pressure. I let the ebony press into the softwood a bit.

3) Give it 24 hours to cure and then trim off the extra wood on the support piece with files and sand paper and polish with micromesh.

Look as you will you cannot see the extra wood on the bottom side of the saddle