Gone over to the dark side.

[farmerjones]

I remember a proud old concrete finisher referring to one of his large trowels, "it's a weapon in the wrong hands."

[catmandu2]

Oh, I can add a couple of other reasons:

Five-string banjo players don't like frequent shifts of of song or tune keys, because they have to re-tune the 5th string. So it's often the curse of OldTime jams that you'll be playing a long series of tunes in one key, just to accommodate the banjo players. It kinda takes the fun out of calling spontaneous tunes when you're playing a more flexible instrument like guitar or mandolin. "Uh, that one's in A, isn't it? We're in G. Can you call one in G?"

Have you ever tried to learn an unfamiliar melody on the fly from an OldTime clawhammer banjo player? "Gee, I know there must be a melody line in there somewhere!"

Well yes, but it's not an issue of having to "retune" the 5th string, but rather, the 5-string banjo is typically approached in an idiomatic style--i.e., the 5th-string is deployed in roll, stroke, and technical devices--which the banjo player typically learns to apply in the context of tunes. IOW, the 5-str banjo is often (perhaps mostly) deployed diatonically, so folks typically learn tunes in these "open" tunings, and are often limited to those.

There is, in the US trad rural banjo tradition, a plethora of various tunings--but still largely conceived and deployed "diatonically" and typically associated with certain repertoire. But, a proficient player in this tradition will be accustomed to rendering their banjo in several different tunings easily and quickly

[Ky Slim]

Oh, I can add a couple of other reasons:
re flexible instrument like guitar or mandolin.
Five-string banjo players don't like frequent shifts of of song or tune keys, because they have to re-tune the 5th string. So it's often the curse of OldTime jams that you'll be playing a long series of tunes in one key, just to accommodate the banjo players. It kinda takes the fun out of calling spontaneous tunes when you're playing a mo "Uh, that one's in A, isn't it? We're in G. Can you call one in G?"

Have you ever tried to learn an unfamiliar melody on the fly from an OldTime clawhammer banjo player? "Gee, I know there must be a melody line in there somewhere!"

This is also common in bluegrass jams that have a banjo but no fiddle. Guitar players can cruise along with banjo keys only needing to add a capo to change key and a decent BG bass player can 1 - 5 bomp every chord and chord change in their sleep. So often times a tune that IS in A on mando and fiddle gets kicked off in G by the banjo. When this happens the poor mando picker tends to sound like he/she didn't know the tune, UNLESS the mando picker outsmarts them all and learns those key of A tunes in G as well!!

[mandroid]

It's OK , just dont go 5 string. that short one puts you in another tuning entirely ..

then we have to set you out on the porch to play for the canoeist passing by.

[Bertram Henze]

Could it be said that the uilleann pipes are to ITM what the 5-string is to bluegrass? Both instuments have a powerful presence and sound great when played well but can be a touch annoying when played not so well.

I have never heard a bad piper in a session - there must be some process early on to filter them out in advance. The pipers who make it to a session are well-respected demigods.

No, the 5-string banjo's counterpart in ITM is the guitar - the classic horror is the 3-chord guitar player new to ITM who either plays wrong chords or continually asks what key the tune is in, only to play the wrong chords anyway because he doesn't know modal scales.

[foldedpath]

Could it be said that the uilleann pipes are to ITM what the 5-string is to bluegrass? Both instuments have a powerful presence and sound great when played well but can be a touch annoying when played not so well.

Hmmm.... I'm not sure that's true. I don't have any direct experience with Uilleann pipes because they're thin on the ground in my area. I do have regular experience with the various "indoor" Scottish smallpipes, border pipes, and reel pipes. I play in a monthly session with two pipers of that variety, and since my fiddler S.O. is into Scottish music these days, I get to hang out with her at workshops with some world-renowned pipers.

As far as amateur session players go, the pipers I've heard have all played very well and in tune. Or what passes for in-tune for pipes, which *is* in tune for the idiom, but not necessarily 12TET (a quality shared by Irish flute and whistle). Unlike the banjo, I think it's an instrument that amateur players generally avoid playing in public until they can play fairly well, considering the social consequences otherwise.

Maybe one thing they do share with banjo is that a certain acclimation period is required for others to appreciate the instrument. Or at least, not instinctively bolt from the room at the sight of one. It took me a while to come around to where it didn't sound like random caterwauling, and there are still many "classic" pipe tunes that sound like just infinite variations on a 5-tone scale. But it's getting better. Or I'm just going deaf...

[foldedpath]

I have never heard a bad piper in a session - there must be some process early on to filter them out in advance. The pipers who make it to a session are well-respected demigods.

Exactly my experience too.

No, the 5-string banjo's counterpart in ITM is the guitar - the classic horror is the 3-chord guitar player new to ITM who either plays wrong chords or continually asks what key the tune is in, only to play the wrong chords anyway because he doesn't know modal scales.

That's also been my experience. It's an ego-shattering thing when a guitarist steeped in the usual folk and pop music genres shows up at an Irish trad session, and for the first time in their life, is greeted with suspicion, if not outright avoidance. And worse, asked to trade-off with another guitar player if there is more than one.

I think I'm a half-decent, "journeyman" level guitar accompanist for ITM, but it took me years to figure out how to fit in smoothly, know when not to play, and so on. It's a different thing, for sure. And it definitely helps if you also play a melody instrument in the music, so you know how to accompany specific tunes, and not just use a one-size-fits-all accompaniment.

[catmandu2]

Could it be said that the uilleann pipes are to ITM what the 5-string is to bluegrass? Both instuments have a powerful presence and sound great when played well but can be a touch annoying when played not so well.

The 5-string is very easy to make sound half-decent and make a sound that people will feel like dancing to (it's a rhythm-first instrument) -- a functional (musical) bum-ditty can be acquired in as quickly as 2 hours...but usually takes about 2 weeks (or more).

As mentioned, pipes--are anything but a dilettante instrument. Playing with rhythmic sophistication is half of the challenge with "melody" instruments. With the 5-string banjo, it's "built-in"

Oh, oops, I see now you're talking bluegrass. Well, a simple BG deployment can be done effectively if one's timing is acute...after all, there is much in the idiom where the banjo is used for signature licks, phrases, turnarounds, etc. If the banjo is not tight rhythmically--it defeats the whole purpose...like a drummer who's timing is off..

Has to be the guitar--as B and F-path mentioned

[Ky Slim]

I have never heard a bad piper in a session - there must be some process early on to filter them out in advance. The pipers who make it to a session are well-respected demigods.

No, the 5-string banjo's counterpart in ITM is the guitar - the classic horror is the 3-chord guitar player new to ITM who either plays wrong chords or continually asks what key the tune is in, only to play the wrong chords anyway because he doesn't know modal scales.

A guitarist that misplaces the chords in a tune that only has 3 chords is equally troublesome.

And I wasn't implying that the 5 String banjo is any kind nuissance to BG or that the pipes are to ITM at all. Just that they are both kind of the unique instruments to their respective genres. Oddly enough the only piper I know (who plays well) is also taking a stab at the 5-string.

[Bertram Henze]

unique instruments to their respective genres.

Yes, and they are both loud, i.e. you can't hide with poor playing, it's all or nothing.

Oddly enough the only piper I know (who plays well) is also taking a stab at the 5-string.

Very odd indeed. A piper's normal secondary handgun is a flute.

[foldedpath]

Very odd indeed. A piper's normal secondary handgun is a flute.

Banjo is a curious choice, but at least it's loud!

For the Scottish smallpipers around here, the fad lately is the Low D whistle, popularized by Fred Morrison (among others). One local piper's workshop even has a separate class on the low whistle. I think it's the twin advantage of not having to develop an embouchure, and also the vertical piper's grip that they're already used to. Low whistles haven't been around that long, so I'm sure it was more likely to be flute in the past.

[BBarton]

Welcome to "our" side, Loretta! A surprising number of mandolin players (of the Celtic/ITM persuasion) are also tenor banjo players (and OM and tenor guitar players in GDAE), and vice versa, which makes some sense given the similar fingering for the tunes, just a bit more stretch, and a tenor banjo (unlike the mandolin) can actually be heard in sessions, something that our local fiddlers continue to remind me of regularly! The bad jokes get a bit tiresome after awhile, but I guess it goes with the territory. If you get a chance to listen to some great tenor banjo player CDs, like Enda Scahill or Brian Kelly, you'll hear some pretty good mandolin cuts.

[Ky Slim]

Very odd indeed. A piper's normal secondary handgun is a flute.

Oh yes. He plays all the whistles, fifes and flutes etc. Quite a whistle player actually. I'm not sure that he is really as "serious" about learning the 5-string or bluegrass as he was ITM. I think he is just enjoys a challenge and the 5 is quite challenging.

Back to the tenors, I have an old Lyon and Healy that I played in an ITM band. I always tuned it GDAE because I was used to playing the mandolin. I have loaned it to a friend of mine who is trying to learn old dixieland/swing stuff and he has tuned it CGDA. With a capo on the 2nd (making notes DAEB) it sounds sweet for ITM tunes. The 2 wound low strings, which have a more mellow timbre, become central to most ITM tunes.

[Dobe]

[QUOTE=mandroid;1330930]It's OK , just dont go 5 string. that short one puts you in another tuning entirely ..

Ouch, I never took to the 4 string stuff, but 5's are pretty cool; especially nylon strung:

[Cecily_Mandoliner]

Congrats, Loretta!
I, too, have an ITB, and I enjoy playing it. My hubby is the one who pulled it off the display for me to try because the neck was shorter than my 5-string. I couldn't get comfortable with the 5-string and its tuning. But, when he put the ITB in my hnads (we did't even know what it was called), I was able to use the same mandolin chords, and pick tunes. Very approachable! We snapped it up, stuffed a t-shirt inside the pot to quiet it, and I brought it to my old timey jam. My fellow jammers loved it, tried it, coveted it.
I have it tuned an octave below the mandolin. I can also tune it up to mandola; I want to try that some time.
It is a fun instrument, especially for Scots/Irish tunes. I like the plucky sound and the effects you can make in bending the notes.
Have fun!

[catmandu2]

Ouch, I never took to the 4 string stuff, but 5's are pretty cool; especially nylon strung:

Ya, while idiomatic as hell, it's a great instrument for imparting dance rhythms, and can be (and often is) an effective soloist instrument. My favorite is a low-strung TOC nylon Lyon & Healy, but is often too quiet to use for performing...and I have fretless too...that roundpeak style was my favorite to play for years

While great themselves--Scruggs et al created a cultural megalith to overcome..

I usually link Bela's TDYH--for those interested in banjo origins. Notice the lineage of stroke-style playing on the ngoni and akonting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jl4IOSLX-o

[Charles E.]

Well this thread inspired me do dig out my Gibson trap door style 4, strung with classical guitar strings, that I have ignored for months. I have been having a blast playing Old Time on it.

[catmandu2]

I usually link Bela's TDYH--for those interested in banjo origins. Notice the lineage of stroke-style playing on the ngoni and akonting

Oops, should have linked this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDCxaQhhL0A

[Loretta Callahan]

Loretta, I think you will find a few four string banjo players here (myself included), have fun. How do you plan to tune it? Octave mandolin tuning?

I see that, Charles. I’m tuning it ala mandolin …. didn’t realize there were more tunings. I’m very green here.

Ah, nylguts … good idea. Thanks crisscross.

Thanks, foldedpath. Enda Scahill’s tutorials are definitely on my radar. I’m lucky enough to have a banjo teacher in town to get me started. I already take his session classes … and he’s been encouraging me to get a banjo for some time now.

Yes, David Lewis …. I bought a tenor banjo.

Oh, Loretta, say it isn't so!?!?!
(Yeah, I play tenor too.)

Haha, John. I’ll never stop playing that Gibson I bought from you. I absolutely love playing it. FYI, I keep thinking I need to change the strings (your strings are still on it), but there’s no corrosion, they stay in tune and sound awesome. I even took to a pro who said …. they were still perfect and not to change them. Used to change strings every 3 to 6 months before.

Oh, and I'm always getting compliments on that little Gibson … even from fiddle and box players. Now, to get my playing to match the beauty of that Gibson has me practicing many hours. Thanks again selling this to me!

Probably insensitive to say on the Cafe´, but one instrument isn't "better" or "worse" than another. They're different, making different sounds, used in different ways, taking different roles. Five-string banjo was my first instrument, though I'm mostly just a Pete-Seeger-book strummer, using it for vocal accompaniment.

Rivalries between mandolin and banjo seem to center around the fact that both are used in bluegrass, where the banjo's volume and show-off-manship result in its being hyped, mostly by the casual bluegrass listener, as "the" bluegrass instrument. Which makes mandolinists jealous -- because they know that Bill Monroe started bluegrass, and he played mandolin.

Mandolinists don't like being drowned out in jams, don't like banjoists consistently drawing the whoops and applause, so we dis banjos and banjo players. I love playing banjo, and I love playing mandolin, and do both as the music requires -- as well as guitar, uke, concertina, harmonica, Autoharp -- whatever is needed, and works.
So playing banjo isn't yielding to the Dark Side, IMHO. I wouldn't criticize anyone for taking up any instrument…
Except bagpipes. And, maybe, bodhran. Then there are the spoons...

Brilliant, Allen!

Here's a little secret...people love banjos (and accordians)--from my experience performing. This is to say, they are popular--they make a sound and occupy a place in the mind with which people are familiar. Nostalgia, cultural image--all affect our perceptions and experiences. If one seeks to entertain people--the banjo is a very evocative and effective instrument.
…….
A banjo requires excellent timing and rhythmic precision--moreso than your mandolin--as volume and percussiveness are its hallmark. For this reason, it's generally "more difficult" to play well--it amplifies both your proficiency as well as your flaws.

Exactly

It's OK , just dont go 5 string. that short one puts you in another tuning entirely ..
then we have to set you out on the porch to play for the canoeist passing by.

Oh no …. no worries there!

Well this thread inspired me do dig out my Gibson trap door style 4, strung with classical guitar strings, that I have ignored for months. I have been having a blast playing Old Time on it.

Ohhhh, that’s actually what I wanted to buy, but couldn't fine one, Charles. If you ever want to sell it.

[liestman]

... If you get a chance to listen to some great tenor banjo player CDs, like Enda Scahill or Brian Kelly, you'll hear some pretty good mandolin cuts.

Loretta, I am stunned that Bruce did not recommend you to listen to Brian McGrath. I thought he and I were charter members of the McGrath fan club! Check him out, really nice playing.

[BBarton]

Loretta, I am stunned that Bruce did not recommend you to listen to Brian McGrath. I thought he and I were charter members of the McGrath fan club! Check him out, really nice playing.

Stunned you say! Sorry about that, John. Indeed, Brian's playing rocks: Two great CDs worth getting: Pure Banjo and Dreamin' Up The Tunes (with Johnny Og Connolly on accordion). Certainly one of my favorite TB players and some great tunes on both. Pure Banjo is still available, but the latter one might be harder to track down. (J - 'Will miss O'F's this year...)

[Loretta Callahan]

Loretta, I am stunned that Bruce did not recommend you to listen to Brian McGrath. I thought he and I were charter members of the McGrath fan club! Check him out, really nice playing.

Seriously! Brian McGrath is quite something. Thanks for the recommendation!

[BBarton]

Loretta: Since you've headed down this slippery slope, there are a lot of really great new players recorded now that you'll no doubt discover, but you can't go wrong with the rock-solid TB playing of John Carty, Keiran Hanrahan (O'Flahertys instructor last year), and Angelina Carberry (O'F's two years ago), as well as Brian M of course. Check 'em out. Any good sessions in Portland? -- I'll be out there next August.

[Shelagh Moore]

I have one too Loretta. I keep it safely locked up in case it falls into the wrong hands...

[Loretta Callahan]

I'm very familiar with Angelina Carberry and just saw John Carty here in Portland a few weeks ago. I'll check out Keiran Hanrahan. Brian M???

Well, the best known session is Sunday evenings at Kells. I'd also give the Moon & Sixpence and Alberta Street Pub a call. They have sessions that are word of mouth only from what I can tell.

Loretta: Since you've headed down this slippery slope, there are a lot of really great new players recorded now that you'll no doubt discover, but you can't go wrong with the rock-solid TB playing of John Carty, Keiran Hanrahan (O'Flahertys instructor last year), and Angelina Carberry (O'F's two years ago), as well as Brian M of course. Check 'em out. Any good sessions in Portland? -- I'll be out there next August.