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Thread: Gone over to the dark side.

  1. #51
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I prefer a "jazz"-tuned (from the "jazz era" of the 20s when the banjo held an immensely popular role in big-band and urbane music) -- CGDA tenor, as I play standards a lot--the higher pitches are great for lots of chord melody. Volume is not an issue--even with the small gauge wire of the high A--as a good banjo can cut like a trumpet. But for ensemble playing I might use GDAE too, depending on the instrumentation.
    I've had my tenor banjos in CGDA, GDAE and "Chicago" DGBE

    They all still sound like a banjo!

    CDGA is historic, but I read better on GDAE and It's my only "octave mandolin" right now.

    I also play Italian music on it, not just jazz. Not much Irish, sorry.

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  3. #52

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    My very favorite (for solo playing) is plectrum--CGBD--with its closer intervals, great sounding banjo. But with so much mandolin comes a predilection for tenors. I haven't had my plectrum out of the closet in years...although I do play five-string in the "classic" style, too.

  4. #53
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    I've heard really wonderful plectrum playing, and that tuning is the older 5 string tuning minus one string, but I never got into it.

    I have heard a trick for tenor players when single-line soloing on a plectrum tuning is ignore the B string - so you play on the C, G, and D strings which are common to both tunings.

  5. #54

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    I've heard really wonderful plectrum playing, and that tuning is the older 5 string tuning minus one string, but I never got into it.
    yes I occasionally use it on 5-string. Functionally, we just avoid the short string if desiring a "plectrum" approach..

    I used to haul several banjos with me and do a kind of "evolution of the banjo" type of performance (I have more sense now )

  6. #55
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post

    I used to haul several banjos with me and do a kind of "evolution of the banjo" type of performance (I have more sense now )
    Do you start with a fretless gourd banjo , minstrel banjo, or "classic " banjo....like before metal strings on banjos?

  7. #56

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Do you start with a fretless gourd banjo , minstrel banjo, or "classic " banjo....like before metal strings on banjos?
    Yes I played "rapping" style on a home-made cookie-tin fretless, then "classic" style on a ~1900 Lyon & Healy (nylon), then the "jet-age" songbook stuff on tenor and banjo-uke.

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  9. #57
    Registered User Toni Schula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lewis View Post
    Brilliant instrument, the banjo. It's completely illogical. But a beautiful instrument.

    If you have a tenor banjo, then the logic comes back.
    When I realised that the third and first string on a fivestring are a fifth apart, some of the logic came back even there. But it left me rarely using the second string for melody

    Edit: David, I just saw you already posted very similar. Greetings to Sicily.
    Last edited by Toni Schula; Oct-17-2014 at 10:16am.

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  11. #58
    Registered User Toni Schula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    I suspect a lot of the banjo jokes around here are due to two factors: 1) the banjo is a complex instrument that is easy to play poorly by casual players (even more so than the mando, with its double courses and tight tolerances) and 2) it tends to compete with the mando in terms of sonic space in an ensemble.
    We have one very short one here in Austria. It just says: "Two musicians met with a banjoist..."
    O.K., that is a poor translation, in the original the third person is a drummer. But you see the similarities, don't you?
    Last edited by Toni Schula; Oct-17-2014 at 10:10am. Reason: Added a smiley, not to be rude. I am a banjoist myself.

  12. #59
    Registered User Toni Schula's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Regarding the dark side. How is this instrument called that Tim O'Brian plays here?

    Is this also called an OM?
    Darol Anger also sometimes plays one.

    I am in the transition from a 5 piece band to a guitar-less trio and have the feeling that for some tunes a lower register cittern would be a very nice accompaniment. Should be tuned in fifth, to facilitate transition from mandolin and to avoid the need to search for another internet forum

  13. #60
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Here is the video you were trying to post:

    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

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  15. #61

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
    Are four-string banjos played differently than the standard five-string? E.g. do they have reentrant tuning or regular tuning, and do you still do clawhammer and/or various picking styles, or are they just strummed and fretted normally?
    I might be able to knock out a lot of these questions with jut a crash course in banjo history. The 5-string was one of the earliest modern banjo designs that we recognize today. Around the 1920s or so, a lot of new jazz players found the fifth string to be frustrating in that it got in the way when playing different keys, so the first 4-string banjos emerged by simply removing the fifth string and strumming with a flatpick, or "plectrum." Therefore, this came to be known as a "plectrum" banjo, tuned CGBD (low to high, so non-reentrant) and using the long 26" or so banjo scale. It allows for a lot of chord melodies and more versatility when it comes to key transitions, and as the name implies, it is usually played with a plectrum. My Deering 5-string not only works for 3-finger and clawhammer styles, but also as as a plectrum by tuning it to gCGBD and ignoring the drone.

    Here's some plectrum banjo, courtesy of Rob MacKillop:



    Shortly after the introduction of the plectrum banjo, jazz banjoists began experimenting with banjos of shorter scales and different intervals, thus the 17-fret and 19-fret tenors came to be. The only difference between the 17's and 19's is the scale length and number of frets; both can be tuned either to CGDA for jazz or GDAE for Irish Trad (though its mainstay use in Irish Trad was not until well after the tenor's inception). These tend to be geared more towards faster melodic playing, and again, they are usually played with a flatpick.



    There are exceptions and oddballs, though. As aforementioned by others, some banjoists will use Chicago tuning to mirror a guitar's top four strings, and it is still possible to play clawhammer on a four-string, just with a slightly different sound. Occasionally, Banjo-ukes are often tuned in some sort of modified reentrant tuning to get a drone string as well.



    --Tom

  16. #62
    Registered User BBarton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Kieran Hanrahan (I spelled his name wrong earlier!) has one CD on his own, "Kieran Hanrahan Plays the Irish Tenor Banjo", but it's a classic (IMHO). Brian M = Brian McGrath.
    Too many instruments...too little time

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  18. #63
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Form what I understand something called a tango banjo was one of the earliest , and instruments like banjolins and such were around by the teens, and they were 4 string members of the banjo orchestras of the times.

    At the same the time influence of the mandolin spread to the banjo, and metal strings and tunings in 5ths were introduced, resulting in the tenor banjo.

    Older players of the "classical" gCGBD tuned banjo dropped the short string, adopted picks and metal strings and the plectrum banjo was born.

    Remember many of the older Gibson banjos were re-necked into 5 strings over the years.

    Still, I've been studying the transition to tenor banjo for a while and the subject is quite murky, with no clear timelines of anything, other than when items show up in historical catalogs and period references, which often are also inconclusive..

  19. #64

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    After seeing Gerry O'Connor on Youtube, I ordered his Complete Guide to the Irish Tenor Banjo. But as far as the picking hand is concerned, the book doesn't go into any details such as pick direction when playing triplets. It's more of a collection of tabs for fifth-tuned instruments.(Without chords).

  20. #65
    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by crisscross View Post
    details such as pick direction when playing triplets.
    Check out "Sully's" Irish Banjo stuff, not sure where it is available.

    Triplets can only be played as: V = downstroke ^ = upstroke

    1. VV^

    2. V^V

    3. V^^

    4. ^V^

    5. ^^V

    6. VVV

    7. ^^^

    8. ^VV

    Honestly I don't recall for sure but I bet it's number 1 or 2 for Irish triplets.

  21. #66

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Thanks for the hint. It seems the Sully-book ist not available at the moment here in Germany.
    The problem is less how to pick a triplet, but rather how to continue after the triplet hast been played.
    In medium tempo jigs, I manage to play to triplets in a row with DUDDUD.
    In hornpipes the dotted eights notes allow to play two ups on eight notes following a triplet and thus get back into the flow.DUD UU
    But how about reels at faster tempos?

  22. #67
    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loretta Callahan View Post
    This is a little off topic for the cafe …. but kinda on topic too. I pulled the switch on a tenor banjo today. It's done.

    I've never played a banjo before until today, but I think I can do it. The strings are easier to hold down, triplets seem a tad easier …. but that reach ~ oh my. This is where having little hands has my fingers jumping all over the fretboard.

    I'm also thinking this could be a neighbor filtering device. I'll play "dueling banjos" for neighbors we want to discourage and "Mug of Brown Ale" or something for neighbors we want to let in.

    Made the same addition to the stable a while back and enjoy it. Got a Deering 17-fret tenor banjo and added the EZ-resonator to it (no good reason why, just seemed like a good idea). Tuned it back-and-forth GDAE-CGDA and finally settled on CGDA (E came out "screechy" to me).

    To add a little more darkness, recently got a banjo-ukulele (Gretsch 1883) as the Deering's little brother. Also tuned CGDA, the banjolele makes for lighter and easier quick grabs, as opposed to hauling out the larger instrument. Keeping both tuned the same makes for easier transition.

    Adding even more darkness, my mandolins keep getting less and less playing time, as the tenor guitar, tenor banjo and the ukes (everything tuned CGDA for ease) keep me under guard. I may soon need night-vision goggles!
    ...Steve

    Current Stable: Two Tenor Guitars (Martin 515, Blueridge BR-40T), a Tenor Banjo (Deering GoodTime 17-Fret), a Mandolin (Burgess #7). two Banjo-Ukes and five Ukuleles..

    The inventory is always in some flux, but that's part of the fun.

  23. #68

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Zawacki View Post
    Made the same addition to the stable a while back and enjoy it. Got a Deering 17-fret tenor banjo and added the EZ-resonator to it (no good reason why, just seemed like a good idea). Tuned it back-and-forth GDAE-CGDA and finally settled on CGDA (E came out "screechy" to me).

    To add a little more darkness, recently got a banjo-ukulele (Gretsch 1883) as the Deering's little brother. Also tuned CGDA, the banjolele makes for lighter and easier quick grabs, as opposed to hauling out the larger instrument. Keeping both tuned the same makes for easier transition.

    Adding even more darkness, my mandolins keep getting less and less playing time, as the tenor guitar, tenor banjo and the ukes (everything tuned CGDA for ease) keep me under guard. I may soon need night-vision goggles!
    I'm also getting a Deering 17-fret … Goodtime. I wanted the one without the extra tone ring, but it will take a lot longer to get here and they made me a good deal. I really love the way feels. My session teacher recommended getting an old Gibson Trap Door tenor, but they're not cheap anymore … and hard to find. I'm sticking with GDAE …. don't want to have to learn new note placements.

    My Gibson ukulele is all but abandoned since I've gone all Irish all the time. Sad.
    Just visiting.

    1923 Gibson A jr Paddlehead mandolin
    Newish Muddy M-4 Mandolin
    New Deering Goodtime Special open back 17 Fret Tenor Banjo

  24. #69
    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loretta Callahan View Post
    I'm also getting a Deering 17-fret … Goodtime. I wanted the one without the extra tone ring, but it will take a lot longer to get here and they made me a good deal. I really love the way feels. My session teacher recommended getting an old Gibson Trap Door tenor, but they're not cheap anymore … and hard to find. I'm sticking with GDAE …. don't want to have to learn new note placements.

    My Gibson ukulele is all but abandoned since I've gone all Irish all the time. Sad.
    The Goodtime is what I have. It's very smooth. The EZ resonator made more sense (approx $50) than what Deering wanted (approx $250) and works well.

    You can always tune the GibUke GDAE. Before I switched my ukes to CGDA I had them GDAE. Since Uke strings come GCEA it's as easy as: 1) using a low-G uke string set, retuning the C up to D and reversing the A and E strings (the E is low, but works okay for rhythm); or 2) doing the former and replacing the E4 string with 20-pound monofilament fishing line ($4 for a 100-yard spool at WallyWorld) and tuning E5. I used the fishing line alternative on several ukes and the tone is quite acceptable and the string is very strong (won't snap easily). Also, 50-pound test line makes a good A string. The GibUke @ GDAE would make a great alternative instrument for Irish, especially if amped.
    ...Steve

    Current Stable: Two Tenor Guitars (Martin 515, Blueridge BR-40T), a Tenor Banjo (Deering GoodTime 17-Fret), a Mandolin (Burgess #7). two Banjo-Ukes and five Ukuleles..

    The inventory is always in some flux, but that's part of the fun.

  25. #70

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loretta Callahan View Post
    I'm also getting a Deering 17-fret … Goodtime. I wanted the one without the extra tone ring, but it will take a lot longer to get here and they made me a good deal. I really love the way feels. My session teacher recommended getting an old Gibson Trap Door tenor, but they're not cheap anymore … and hard to find.
    Well they do come up occasionally... http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/80U-2703.htm

    With experience, you may come to find pleasure in shopping for vintage banjos; there're a trove of them about--as they were once quite popular

  26. #71

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Well they do come up occasionally... http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/80U-2703.htm
    With experience, you may come to find pleasure in shopping for vintage banjos; there're a trove of them about--as they were once quite popular
    Yup, I've been looking, but they're too expensive now (my teacher said I could get one in the $300 range). Plus, I really hate having to tweak and fuss with instruments. I'm not a gear head at all. I want something ready to play … an instrument I've either tried out, or am buying from a player who can give me a lot of information about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Zawacki View Post
    The Goodtime is what I have. It's very smooth. The EZ resonator made more sense (approx $50) than what Deering wanted (approx $250) and works well.
    You can always tune the GibUke GDAE..
    When I played the Deering, the first thing I noticed was how smooth it felt to play. Good to know you have that experience also.

    I have "uke-itis". I just don't enjoy playing ukuleles at all anymore. Too many bad experiences with groups where there were a number of wannabe "Eric Claptons" or crappy singers playing awful songs and tunes ~ wanting to solo . I'd rather listen to a good Hawaiian musician playing the ukulele or a good Hawaiian kanikapila (group performance). I love Irish sessions because it is a group thing ~ sans ukuleles. But that's me.
    Just visiting.

    1923 Gibson A jr Paddlehead mandolin
    Newish Muddy M-4 Mandolin
    New Deering Goodtime Special open back 17 Fret Tenor Banjo

  27. #72
    My Florida is scooped pheffernan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Well they do come up occasionally... http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/80U-2703.htm
    How would that Gibson stack up against the rest of Elderly's offerings as a first foray into tenor territory?
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  28. #73
    Bark first, Bite later Steve Zawacki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loretta Callahan View Post
    Yup, I've been looking, but they're too expensive now (my teacher said I could get one in the $300 range). Plus, I really hate having to tweak and fuss with instruments. I'm not a gear head at all. I want something ready to play … an instrument I've either tried out, or am buying from a player who can give me a lot of information about it.

    When I played the Deering, the first thing I noticed was how smooth it felt to play. Good to know you have that experience also.

    I have "uke-itis". I just don't enjoy playing ukuleles at all anymore. Too many bad experiences with groups where there were a number of wannabe "Eric Claptons" or crappy singers playing awful songs and tunes ~ wanting to solo . I'd rather listen to a good Hawaiian musician playing the ukulele or a good Hawaiian kanikapila (group performance). I love Irish sessions because it is a group thing ~ sans ukuleles. But that's me.
    I know what you mean. I can only take "Tiny Bubbles" and such so often and then that's it. I do mainly rock, so these group things are just "work" after a while. That being said, tuning the uke to what the TB is makes the uke a great practice and pick-it-out instrument when you don't want to haul the TB out if the case. That way, the uke helps reinforce the TB, especially those times when sitting on the couch and not wanting to blast everyone out of the room.
    ...Steve

    Current Stable: Two Tenor Guitars (Martin 515, Blueridge BR-40T), a Tenor Banjo (Deering GoodTime 17-Fret), a Mandolin (Burgess #7). two Banjo-Ukes and five Ukuleles..

    The inventory is always in some flux, but that's part of the fun.

  29. #74

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by pheffernan View Post
    How would that Gibson stack up against the rest of Elderly's offerings as a first foray into tenor territory?
    Impossible to know for certain without playing it--however a phone call to Elderly could render enough information.

    For my money, I like vintage--but as mentioned, one needs to know what they're getting into: many old banjos need replacement nuts, brackets, tuners, heads, and neck angle adjustments. The upshot though--banjos are rather easy to tinker with...even neck angle repositioning is a straightforward procedure--most can be remedied with a simple shim..

  30. #75

    Default Re: Gone over to the dark side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Zawacki View Post
    I know what you mean. I can only take "Tiny Bubbles" and such so often and then that's it. I do mainly rock, so these group things are just "work" after a while. That being said, tuning the uke to what the TB is makes the uke a great practice and pick-it-out instrument when you don't want to haul the TB out if the case. That way, the uke helps reinforce the TB, especially those times when sitting on the couch and not wanting to blast everyone out of the room.
    Haha …. I see you understand. Good idea about eh uke. My Grandson, who lives here right now, loves the uke …. as well as Irish trad. It might encourage him to play with me more.
    Just visiting.

    1923 Gibson A jr Paddlehead mandolin
    Newish Muddy M-4 Mandolin
    New Deering Goodtime Special open back 17 Fret Tenor Banjo

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