Amping the acoustic mandolin without feedback?

[Bob Bledsoe]

Hey all,

I play a JBovier F5 Tradition in a pretty loud Americana rock band. I'm using a K&K Twinspot pickup. I'm finding it difficult to get loud enough to cut through on riffs. I'm getting feedback whenever I try to get the volume where it needs to be. I've tried a few different amps including the Bose tower and I sometimes just go direct into the board. No luck on finding something that lets me get loud enough without feedback. I'm fairly new to plugging in so I don't know much about the technology.

My last resort I guess would be to get a solid body electric but I really don't want to do that... Anybody here play in a loud band that can give me a recommendation?

Thanks for your thoughts on this!

Bob

[Django Fret]

Hey all,

I play a JBovier F5 Tradition in a pretty loud Americana rock band. I'm using a K&K Twinspot pickup. I'm finding it difficult to get loud enough to cut through on riffs. I'm getting feedback whenever I try to get the volume where it needs to be. I've tried a few different amps including the Bose tower and I sometimes just go direct into the board. No luck on finding something that lets me get loud enough without feedback. I'm fairly new to plugging in so I don't know much about the technology.

My last resort I guess would be to get a solid body electric but I really don't want to do that... Anybody here play in a loud band that can give me a recommendation?

Thanks for your thoughts on this!

Bob

I would recommend getting an American made Ovation mm68. There may be some others that will be recommended but that solved my problem without having to go solid body electric and maintain the acoustic mandolin sound.

[DavidKOS]

Have you used a separate EQ on the mandolin to dial out the feedback frequencies?

[Bob Bledsoe]

Have you used a separate EQ on the mandolin to dial out the feedback frequencies?

I think the sound guy at our rehearsal did that the other day from the soundboard. It helped but we still couldn't get me quite loud enough... Is there a piece of equipment I should get so I can dial that back myself if I'm not going into the board?

[DavidKOS]

I think the sound guy at our rehearsal did that the other day from the soundboard. It helped but we still couldn't get me quite loud enough... Is there a piece of equipment I should get so I can dial that back myself if I'm not going into the board?

I was thinking of a pedal EQ like the guitar players use, with a lot of frequency bands. Lots of mixers these days only have limited EQ on each channel strip.

Something like:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FVBffgodyioAQA

[Paul Merlo]

Are you using a preamp? I think it helps to have volume and some tone control on your belt. K&K makes one that pairs well with their pickups. If you need a volume boost to solo, try looking at some effects pedals too.

[Bob Bledsoe]

That's great David. Thanks for posting that link!

I was thinking of a pedal EQ like the guitar players use, with a lot of frequency bands. Lots of mixers these days only have limited EQ on each channel strip.

Something like:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FVBffgodyioAQA

[Bob Bledsoe]

Good idea Paul. I'm not using a preamp right now. I'll look into K&K's. Thanks!

Are you using a preamp? I think it helps to have volume and some tone control on your belt. K&K makes one that pairs well with their pickups. If you need a volume boost to solo, try looking at some effects pedals too.

[DHopkins]

I'm using a K&K preamp with K&K twin pickups in my Breedlove. Good combination. Low-Med-Hi adjustments. It's strictly battery, though. It has no provision for external power but this is not a problem if you're wearing it. Battery life is probably a little longer than most and batteries are easy to change.

[almeriastrings]

You CANNOT defeat the laws of physics.

No amount of pedals, preamps or other gizmos can. Nothing can.

Put simply, if you get so loud your transducer is detecting the vibrations from the sound system and sending them back to be re-amplified you will get feedback. It is inevitable.

For borderline feedback you can use EQ and notch filtering (tight EQ) to knock down the most problematic frequencies, but all this does is buy you a few extra dB. If the volume is still too high - feedback.

You only options are:

1. Reduce stage volume. Look at monitor placement in particular. Think about in-ear-monitoring (IEM's)
2. Position house system so it is not picked up by your instruments.
3. Use less sensitive instruments and transducers. Magnetic pickups are less inclined to feedback than soundboard transducers. Bridge pickups are marginally less problematic than soundboard transducers. Even a solid plank with a magnetic pickup will feedback if the levels are high enough - as Hendrix demonstrated frequently.

It is all very well "dialing it in yourself" - but what will you base that on? You will be on stage - the house sound will be different. The only way to do that is to use a wireless rig so you can get out into the audience position while making adjustments, or use one of the new digital desks that allows for virtual soundchecks. Even then, results in an empty room are different from when it fills up with mobile sound absorbers - your audience.

The solution to feedback is not more and more equipment. It is understanding the causes and attacking it from that angle.

Some equipment can help. One of the few truly effective things is an automatic 'feedback suppressor'. I like the Sabine FBX and the Peavey Feedback Ferret D. The latest digital desks may have these built in.

Used correctly these can make a significant difference, but they (still) cannot defeat the basic laws of acoustics and physics and if you are still too loud - feedback.

[Bob Bledsoe]

Good stuff! Very helpful. Thanks almeriastrings!

You CANNOT defeat the laws of physics.

No amount of pedals, preamps or other gizmos can. Nothing can.

Put simply, if you get so loud your transducer is detecting the vibrations from the sound system and sending them back to be re-amplified you will get feedback. It is inevitable.

For borderline feedback you can use EQ and notch filtering (tight EQ) to knock down the most problematic frequencies, but all this does is buy you a few extra dB. If the volume is still too high - feedback.

You only options are:

1. Reduce stage volume. Look at monitor placement in particular. Think about in-ear-monitoring (IEM's)
2. Position house system so it is not picked up by your instruments.
3. Use less sensitive instruments and transducers. Magnetic pickups are less inclined to feedback than soundboard transducers. Bridge pickups are marginally less problematic than soundboard transducers. Even a solid plank with a magnetic pickup will feedback if the levels are high enough - as Hendrix demonstrated frequently.

It is all very well "dialing it in yourself" - but what will you base that on? You will be on stage - the house sound will be different. The only way to do that is to use a wireless rig so you can get out into the audience position while making adjustments, or use one of the new digital desks that allows for virtual soundchecks. Even then, results in an empty room are different from when it fills up with mobile sound absorbers - your audience.

The solution to feedback is not more and more equipment. It is understanding the causes and attacking it from that angle.

Some equipment can help. One of the few truly effective things is an automatic 'feedback suppressor'. I like the Sabine FBX and the Peavey Feedback Ferret D. The latest digital desks may have these built in.

Used correctly these can make a significant difference, but they (still) cannot defeat the basic laws of acoustics and physics and if you are still too loud - feedback.

[Bob Bledsoe]

I think I might give this a try, along with almeriastrings' suggestions. Anybody have thoughts on this Baggs Venue? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VenueDI

[almeriastrings]

The Venue is a decent preamp... though when they say " You'll also be glad to hear that the Venue DI is fully prepared to help you fight potential problems with feedback — squealing noise won't ruin your set! " they are being a bit over-optimistic. It can help, in some situations, but if your stage level is high enough, it will certainly not solve the problem. Likewise, the Radial PZ-Pre.

The bottom line is that EQ adjustment can only achieve so much.

The single most effective thing you can do is to make sure that as little amplified sound as possible hits your instrument, thereby setting up sympathetic vibrations that then get re-amplified. This beats all the 'magic box' solutions out there bar none.

Getting rid of stage monitors, for example, makes a huge difference. That is why so many major acts use IEM's.

[Bob Bledsoe]

The band just ordered an IEM system, so that should help. I'm close on the volume level. We're a loud band but we're not Motorhead, so I just need a little more to get the mando where it needs to be. I think a combo of the pedal and ear monitors should do it. Thanks again for your advice on this!

The Venue is a decent preamp... though when they say " You'll also be glad to hear that the Venue DI is fully prepared to help you fight potential problems with feedback — squealing noise won't ruin your set! " they are being a bit over-optimistic. It can help, in some situations, but if your stage level is high enough, it will certainly not solve the problem. Likewise, the Radial PZ-Pre.

The bottom line is that EQ adjustment can only achieve so much.

The single most effective thing you can do is to make sure that as little amplified sound as possible hits your instrument, thereby setting up sympathetic vibrations that then get re-amplified. This beats all the 'magic box' solutions out there bar none.

Getting rid of stage monitors, for example, makes a huge difference. That is why so many major acts use IEM's.

[Mike Bunting]

I know it's sacrilegious but I say turn the stage sound down.

[DavidKOS]

Put simply, if you get so loud your transducer is detecting the vibrations from the sound system and sending them back to be re-amplified you will get feedback. It is inevitable.

For borderline feedback you can use EQ and notch filtering (tight EQ) to knock down the most problematic frequencies, but all this does is buy you a few extra dB. If the volume is still too high - feedback.

You only options are:

1. Reduce stage volume. Look at monitor placement in particular. Think about in-ear-monitoring (IEM's)
2. Position house system so it is not picked up by your instruments.
3. Use less sensitive instruments and transducers. Magnetic pickups are less inclined to feedback than soundboard transducers. Bridge pickups are marginally less problematic than soundboard transducers. Even a solid plank with a magnetic pickup will feedback if the levels are high enough - as Hendrix demonstrated frequently.

It is all very well "dialing it in yourself" - but what will you base that on? You will be on stage - the house sound will be different. The only way to do that is to use a wireless rig so you can get out into the audience position while making adjustments, or use one of the new digital desks that allows for virtual soundchecks. Even then, results in an empty room are different from when it fills up with mobile sound absorbers - your audience.

The solution to feedback is not more and more equipment. It is understanding the causes and attacking it from that angle.

Some equipment can help. One of the few truly effective things is an automatic 'feedback suppressor'. I like the Sabine FBX and the Peavey Feedback Ferret D. The latest digital desks may have these built in.

Used correctly these can make a significant difference, but they (still) cannot defeat the basic laws of acoustics and physics and if you are still too loud - feedback.

Ok, this guy really gets it and knows his stuff.
My suggestion is indeed a stopgap.

The real solution is - 1. Reduce stage volume.

All else will fall into place so much easier if you guys turn down a bit.

Most bands play too loud for their venues anyway.

[Joey Anchors]

Getting rid of stage monitors, for example, makes a huge difference. That is why so many major acts use IEM's.

I did this exact thing back in my upright bass career days. I would plug my basses piezo straight into a REDDI and would have the sound engineer give our lead singer my monitor as I could always hear my bass through the FOH

[Bob Bledsoe]

Yes, this would be the easiest solution. I know there are a lot of loud bands out there who play with acoustic mandolins though. My guess is that they're able to do so because of a preamp, DI box with EQ, etc... The few notches I need in volume to get to where I need to be is a pretty small boost. I'm fairly confident a combination of these suggestions will get me where I need to be. If not, we'll look at dialing it down. Thanks again guys!

I know it's sacrilegious but I say turn the stage sound down.

Ok, this guy really gets it and knows his stuff.
My suggestion is indeed a stopgap.

The real solution is - 1. Reduce stage volume.

All else will fall into place so much easier if you guys turn down a bit.

Most bands play too loud for their venues anyway.

[almeriastrings]

Yes, this would be the easiest solution. I know there are a lot of loud bands out there who play with acoustic mandolins though. My guess is that they're able to do so because of a preamp, DI box with EQ, etc..

The venues have a lot to do with it too. Some rooms are simply BAD and cause issues even at comparatively low levels, in good theatre or concert stage, however, there can be very few problems. The reflectivity of the room is hugely important, but even things like the air temperature have an effect on the ambient acoustics.... there are a huge number of variables, not all of them obvious.

The EQ on a really good console, incidentally, is likely to be far better than that on any small pedal unit or floor mounted preamp. Apart from impedance matching as required via a suitable high-grade DI box, I generally find going straight to the mic channel produces the cleanest, highest quality results overall. Cheaper EQ's can suffer from all kinds of phase issues.

[DavidKOS]

The EQ on a really good console, incidentally, is likely to be far better than that on any small pedal unit or floor mounted preamp. .

That's the key, huh, a REALLY GOOD console - not all venues have one.

[Ken Waltham]

I played for about 15 years in a serious rock band. 95% of the time using electric guitar, but mandolin on a few songs. The foolproof, 100% of the time problem free, was my Gibson EM200. Used exactly the same rig as my Strat, just Y'd them together, same tuner, same pedals, same amp.
You can do anything you want with it, the audience has no idea that "it does not have an acoustic sound", and it is completely trouble free. It feels like an F5 when you play it, and the P90 pickup is extremely hot.
I know you are sacrificing the acoustic sound, but, the trouble free playing it creates is well worth any shortcoming you may think you hear.
After all, it is a rock band...and you will play better because there are no "problems" nagging at you.

[mandroid]

Any Pickup on the sound board of an Acoustic mandolin

effectively turns it into a Microphone with a big wooden diaphragm.

As Ken suggests, a solid slab Body, with a Magnetic pickup will be the way to Go.

[DavidKOS]

Less feedback, but now you no longer have an amplified acoustic instrument but a tiny solid body electric guitar tuned like a mandolin - a great sound on its own, but not the same as an acoustic.

But as said, the audience may not even care.

[mandroid]

Bar band ala dropkick Murphys , drinking audience, probably not ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Yg8MuaWMT0

[Bob Bledsoe]

Just got back to see all these replies. Thanks guys! I really appreciate everyone's input on this.
I'm going to try the LL Baggs Venue DI for now. I really want to keep the acoustic sound. There are much louder bands than ours that use acoustic mandolins. If it becomes too much of a problem I'll suck it up and get a solid body. Thanks again!