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Thread: Gibson head luthiers

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    DataNick… Yes, I carved the soundboards and backboards for the F5Ls through early 1981. I'm uncertain of the last day they actually used parts from my machine because a) there was still an inventory of carved soundboards and backboards as I was sending new ones, b) I don't know how may boards were damaged and not used either at the outset or somewhere during production, and c) we finally set up their carver with some master patterns from my machine and I don't know the exact break point between my carving and their carving. (If there are more questions on this topic, let's take it off to a new thread so we don't hijack this great thread). …R

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    Loarcutus of MandoBorg DataNick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by siminoff View Post
    DataNick… Yes, I carved the soundboards and backboards for the F5Ls through early 1981. I'm uncertain of the last day they actually used parts from my machine because a) there was still an inventory of carved soundboards and backboards as I was sending new ones, b) I don't know how may boards were damaged and not used either at the outset or somewhere during production, and c) we finally set up their carver with some master patterns from my machine and I don't know the exact break point between my carving and their carving. (If there are more questions on this topic, let's take it off to a new thread so we don't hijack this great thread). …R
    Mr. Siminoff,

    I've bumped another thread with a followup question.

    Much thanks!

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...92#post1340292
    1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed


    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
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  3. #53
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Mike… I think your assessment is pretty accurate. And probably similar to having "Earl Scruggs" or "B.B King" or "Les Paul" on the truss rod cover. I think it is also important to consider that this was a time when flowery boastful marketing was rampant and having a deck of heavy hitters in your back pocket was important. Consider for a moment of the 50- and 60-page Gibson catalogs of the day with abundant rationale on why Gibson's acoustic instruments were superior. To top it off, having an "acoustic engineer" sign your product was a real product differentiator. As to Loar's fame then, he was certainly known, performing on his own, with Gibsonites, and with Fisher Shipp, but I don't think his fame flourished as quickly or vividly in the communication tools of the day. The press was the only messenger then, and the absence of TV and of today's real-time communications methods certainly made it harder for artists to become widely recognized.

    When we were introducing the F5Ls in 1978, Jim Deurloo (plant manager at the time) didn't think it was right for him (Jim) to sign labels. Bruce Bolen thought I should sign them (after all, he thought there would only be three F5L mandolins) but I felt that was wrong and I wanted the three luthiers (Doan, Fuller, and Cowles) to sign them. Believe it or not, getting that to happen took an act of congress and it had to go through Norlin (Gibson's parent company then) legal for approval. They finally said "okay" but again thinking there would only be three mandolins - sort of a "what the heck.." kind of answer. The rest is history. …R

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  5. #54
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Roger, thank you for the continuing insight into the "redesign" project! The redirection for the mandolin "division" using the ideas you and the rest of team came up with shows, there is hope for "corporations" to see they do need help.
    Should you find yourself in Kalamazoo, feel free to come for some feasting!
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    "If brains was lard, that boy couldn't grease a very big skillet" J.D. Clampett

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    My understanding is that Gibson didn't buy out Flatiron until 1987 therefore Steve Carlson couldn't have signed labels for Gibson in 1986 as posted. I'm sure he didn't sign labels for Gibson until '87 possibly '88. Anyone have a Carlson signed gibson from '87?

  7. #56
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    The label in my 1980 F-5L is signed by Rick Brown.I have tried unsuccessfully to find any information about him. I am very proud of the fact that Mr. Siminoff carved/graduated the top and back on my Mandolin,it seems to make the mandolin sound better just knowing that fact.Concerning RICK BROWN if anyone has any info,dirt,or war stories I would love to hear it.
    Also------why is the word I believe to be "President" marked out on all the early F-5Ls I have saw in previous posts?????
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  8. #57
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Christensen View Post
    My understanding is that Gibson didn't buy out Flatiron until 1987 therefore Steve Carlson couldn't have signed labels for Gibson in 1986 as posted. I'm sure he didn't sign labels for Gibson until '87 possibly '88. Anyone have a Carlson signed gibson from '87?
    I believe Gibson contracted out F5L production to Flatiron in 1986-87 before the purchase because of their inability to keep up with F5L orders. The luthiers from Kalamazoo who made mandos apparently chose not to relocate to Nashville in 83'-84'.
    1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed


    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
    "I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
    "Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
    Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Ooops - yes, forgot about Rick Brown. There was also a woman building there for a while. I'll do some digging and get back with some data… R

    PS: Yes, the word "President" was struck out after Stan Rendell retired (since the other folks signing were luthiers, not the Pres.) One would think that Gibson could have afforded to print new labels.

  10. #59
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    DataNick.. Regarding your comment: "The luthiers from Kalamazoo who made mandos apparently chose not to relocate to Nashville in 83'-84'." This was a period of some turmoil at Gibson: The plant was moving from Kalamazoo to Nashville, mandolin production moved to Flatiron, Norlin (Gibson's parent company) wasn't terribly supportive and didn't know how to run a guitar company, and a private company bought Gibson from Norlin Industries (in 1986). From the luthier's perspective, mandolin building wasn't the highest thing on their priority list, many Kalamazoo employees had long tenure with Gibson Kalamazoo, some of their ancestors worked at Gibson Kalamazoo, most of their families were in Kalamazoo, and in the middle of all the aforementioned turmoil, the move to Nashville had questionable appeal. Jim Deurloo decided to stay in Kalamazoo and a new plant manager - Whitey Morrison - was assigned to the Nashville facility. Only a modest number of folks relocated. …R

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  12. #60
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Thank you Mr. Siminoff for the interesting background on that. So this is the backdrop in which apparently as I've read that initially F5L production was "contracted out" to Flatiron, and hence Steve Carlson signatures on F5L mandolins in 1986....
    1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed


    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
    "I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
    "Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
    Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel

  13. #61
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Seeing all the labels reminds me that the first three F5L prototypes had different labels from the F5Ls that followed. When we got to the labeling stage, I prepared the artwork for the F5L labels with the goal of replicating the size, shape, graphics, font, and feel of the original Loar-signed labels. However, the label I prepared included the Gibson guarantee statement and Norlin legal shot it down. So I re-did them (actually, I think there were two more changes) until we arrived at what you see in this photo. Again, these labels were only for the first three, and they might have used them for a few mandolins once production ramped up in Sept of 1978 but I don't know where the cutoff point was to the next version of the label. (Yes, the writing on one label is blurry - a over zealous bozo onlooker at a festival leaned over to look at the labels and had a Coke in his hand. !@#$!@#$) …R

    PS: These are the labels in the F5L prototype I own.

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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    I guess though the years all of the signers have been called "Acoustic Engineers", yet I don't think anyone is sure that any of the signers are either engineers or professional acoustic experts. As a matter of fact, the fact that they are not is probably one of the reasons that so many of them sound outstanding. I don't know about Michigan, but in the state of Tennessee it is illegal to call yourself an "engineer" unless you are one and are registered in the state as one. Same with the term "architect". I know because I found out the hard way!!!!! It is my guess that the state authorities have never paid attention that the term is being used by Gibson or that it has never been brought to their attention whereas the labels would have been changed.
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  17. #63
    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Thanks all once again for all this great information!
    Which artists signed the labels on their signature editions? I know Bill Monroe and Ricky Skaggs did, but am not sure of the others. I assume Bill Monroe simply signed 200 labels rather than personally inspected everyone of them.

    Gibson employees
    Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
    Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
    Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
    Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
    Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
    Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
    Rick Brown (1980) *
    Jerry Rowland (1981)
    Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
    Steve B. Carlson (1986-1993) *
    Dennis A. Balin (?)
    Phil Brug (1993-1994)
    Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
    Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
    Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
    Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001)
    Charlie Derrington (1998-2004) *
    Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
    Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
    David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *

    Signature models
    Bill Monroe (1991-1994) *
    Ricky Skaggs (2008)

    Not sure..
    Adam Steffey (?)
    Alan Bibey (?)
    Bobby Osborne (?)
    Doyle Lawson (?)
    Sam Bush (?)
    Wayne Benson (?)

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #64
    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Small update on this. I've removed Dennis Balian from the list as I can't find any Gibsons signed by him, only Flatirons. Also came across a 1989 model signed by Greg Rich, a new name to me! Also a few minor changes to the years, based on models I've seen online.

    Gibson signatories
    Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
    Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
    Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
    Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
    Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
    Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
    Rick Brown (1980) *
    Jerry Rowland (1981)
    Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
    Greg Rich (1989)
    Steve B. Carlson (1986-1993) *
    Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
    Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
    Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
    Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
    Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
    Charlie Derrington (1998-2005) *
    Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
    Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
    David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *

    Artists signatures
    Bill Monroe (1991-1994) *
    Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)

    Not sure if these people signed their signature labels. If anyone can confirm that would be great
    Adam Steffey (?)
    Alan Bibey (?)
    Bobby Osborne (?)
    Doyle Lawson (?)
    Sam Bush (?)
    Wayne Benson (?)

    Found images of a Sim Daley and a Phil Brug label:
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    If anyone has a Gibson label signed by Rowland, Triggs, Rich, Weber, Sullivan, Ricky Skaggs or anyone not on the list, please post a scan of it in this thread.

    We'll get this list complete someday!!
    Cheers, Jochem

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  20. #65
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Jochem,

    Apparently Charlie Derrington was making/signing mandolins in 1987, and possibly other late 80s years as well. Jim Triggs could confirm that, but at least in this case 1987. See this thread
    Derrington-Gibson-F5-mandolins Post #8 has the pic of the signature label.
    1994 Gibson F5L - Weber signed


    "Mandolin brands are a guide, not gospel! I don't drink koolaid and that Emperor is naked!"
    "If you wanna get soul Baby, you gots to get the scroll..."
    "I would rather play music anyday for the beggar, the thief, and the fool!"
    "Perfection is not attainable; but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence" Vince Lombardi
    Playing Style: RockMonRoll Desperado Bluegrass Desperado YT Channel

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  22. #66
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Greg Rich was behind some pretty intense one off Gibson instruments. I don't know if he ever signed any general production. You could probably ask him if you dig out his e-mail address. He's one of the people behind the instruments imported by The Music Link. You'll probably recognize a few of those brands. If you're on Linked-In he is as well.
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  24. #67
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    There is a Gibson Sam Bush model currently listed on EBay with a photo of the interior label signed by Sam Bush as the accoustic engineer.
    "A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to leave alone."

  25. #68
    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Great! Thank you David!
    Click image for larger version. 

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  26. #69
    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    I just found a signature I can't place. This is from a 1976 F-5 on eBay a while ago. First name looks like Carl. Any help appreciated!

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    Thanks! Jochem

  27. #70
    1966 F5 jochemgr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    It's Carl Spinoso who replaced Stan Rendell in the mid 1970s.

    Lloyd Loar (1922-1924) *
    Stanley E. Rendell (1970-1975) *
    Carl Spinoso (1976) *
    Wilbur D. Fuller (1978) *
    Richard J. Doan (1978-1981) *
    Aaron Cowles (1978-1984) *
    Herman Meints (1979-1980) *
    Rick Brown (1980) *
    Jerry Rowland (1981)
    Jim Triggs (1986-1989)
    Greg Rich (1989)
    Steve P. Carlson (1986-1993) *
    Bill Monroe (1991-1995) *
    Phil Brug (1993-1994) *
    Bruce D. Weber (1993-1997)
    Larry Barnwell (1994-1995) *
    Paul Schneider (1997-1998) *
    Simeon C. Daley (1998-2001) *
    Charles Derrington (1987-2005) *
    Danny Roberts (2001-2005) *
    Casey Q. Sullivan (2005-2007)
    Ricky Skaggs (2007-2008)
    David W. Harvey (2008-2014) *
    Sam Bush (2012) *

  28. #71
    Registered User trevor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    1980 Marvin Luck (?) ... more info soon.
    Trevor
    Formerly of The Acoustic Music Co (TAMCO) Brighton England now retired.

  29. #72
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Yes, please provide more info on "Marvin Luck" - if you are referring to Martin Lock, he was Gibson's president after move to Nashville. …R

  30. #73
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Hi Roger,

    That's interesting it as labelled Kalamazoo, maybe it was started there and finished in Nashville. Some photos below, more on my website here http://www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk/...olins-121.html











    Trevor
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  32. #74
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Thanks Trevor… Now that I see photos, this mandolin is of the pre-1978 design period (backboard wood, pointed neck heel, size of f-holes, inlays) and very well could have hung around the plant for one reason or another, finally getting finished in 1980. I don't recognize signature. Not very surprising… R

  33. #75
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    Default Re: Gibson head luthiers

    Thanks Roger.
    Trevor
    Formerly of The Acoustic Music Co (TAMCO) Brighton England now retired.

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