First Step Towards the CBOM World and Looking on Instrument Advic

[Daniel Vance]

I am starting the process of looking into getting an Octave Mandolin or Irish Bouzouki (maybe Cittern, but that 10 strings would be getting a little to much). This will probably be a year if not longer process, as I just got a new mandolin, and it will take me at least that long to really get any extra funds together and to convince my wife that I need yet another instrument.

Are there any resources out there (videos) comparing the different types and styles? I have gone through most of the U.S. makers on the Bouzouki GDAE website (http://gdaebouzouki.blogspot.com/p/b...nd-octave.html) and have started reading the differences between flat and carved tops, but with so many variations (shape, tuning, scale length, sound board wood choice, top construction, sound holes, etc) and no real landmark sound (like a gibson F5 in the mando world), I am really at a loss of where to even begin. More importantly, as I am in New Orleans, there are not a plethora, if any, bouzouki or mandolin players around.

I play at sessions with a celtic band with 6 - 7 violin players, so am looking for something to help provide a driving accompaniment, or broken chords and counter melody / chords with moving bass lines on slower pieces like what is done in with the octave / bouzouki in Planxty and Dervish.

At this point price is not a determining factor, I really am just trying to start diminishing the options, so I can try and identify ways to try out these instruments or begin calling builders to get additional information about their instruments.

[allenhopkins]

My personal octave mandolin is an old Flatiron 3K; its scale is long enough to qualify as "bouzouki" (and it's actually labeled as such), and though they're not being made any more, the Flatiron 3's (the letter suffix designates the wood from which they're made; "K" is for koa) show up used from time to time -- here's one. Used price is reasonable, always less than $1K in my experience.

Just the one I've found satisfactory. Lots of good ones being made now: Petersen, Gypsy in flat-tops, Weber in carved-tops. Even the Asian imports like Trinity College and Gold Tone are decent for the price.

[allenhopkins]

Also, you asked about videos "comparing different types and styles." Here's a YouTube playlist of 200 (!) "popular octave mandolin videos."

YouTube acoustical quality is not the best, but it should give you some idea of carved-top vs. flat-top, f-hole vs. oval-hole, different body shapes and scale lengths -- enough, at least, to give some leads to go to particular builders' websites.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Herb Taylor is making amazing instruments. I played a few at the O'Flaherty Retreat last week. Check out Herb's website, and I think there's one in The Classifieds.

[Rob Zamites]

I'd recommend Stan Pope at Bigleaf Mandolins, quality instruments, easy to work with and not a multi-year waiting list! NFI, just a satisfied tune mangler who loves his Bigleaf 'zouk.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I am starting the process of looking into getting an Octave Mandolin or Irish Bouzouki (maybe Cittern, but that 10 strings would be getting a little to much). This will probably be a year if not longer process, as I just got a new mandolin, and it will take me at least that long to really get any extra funds together and to convince my wife that I need yet another instrument.

Are there any resources out there (videos) comparing the different types and styles? I have gone through most of the U.S. makers on the Bouzouki GDAE website (http://gdaebouzouki.blogspot.com/p/b...nd-octave.html) and have started reading the differences between flat and carved tops, but with so many variations (shape, tuning, scale length, sound board wood choice, top construction, sound holes, etc) and no real landmark sound (like a gibson F5 in the mando world), I am really at a loss of where to even begin. More importantly, as I am in New Orleans, there are not a plethora, if any, bouzouki or mandolin players around.

I play at sessions with a celtic band with 6 - 7 violin players, so am looking for something to help provide a driving accompaniment, or broken chords and counter melody / chords with moving bass lines on slower pieces like what is done in with the octave / bouzouki in Planxty and Dervish.

At this point price is not a determining factor, I really am just trying to start diminishing the options, so I can try and identify ways to try out these instruments or begin calling builders to get additional information about their instruments.

Last time I was in New Orleans Beth Patterson was a local... You won't find a better zouk player than Beth...

[Rob Zamites]

Last time I was in New Orleans Beth Patterson was a local... You won't find a better zouk player than Beth...

I'll second that. She's amazing.

[darrylicshon]

There are a lot of things to choose from, first i would think about scale length i have some octave with a scale length of 19-20 for me that is as long as I like for an octave, i also have a Bouzouki i think it is 23" scale length they all do different things and sound different, always best to get out there and start playing any you can find, good luck try not to end up like me i want ever type, there is a new 2014 Weber Gallatin F Octave with 20" scale that i am going to save up for after i buy this mandolin that I have been wanting

[danb]

I play at sessions with a celtic band with 6 - 7 violin players, so am looking for something to help provide a driving accompaniment, or broken chords and counter melody / chords with moving bass lines on slower pieces like what is done in with the octave / bouzouki in Planxty and Dervish.

Both Planxty and Dervish pair a GDAD bouzouki with CGDA mandola (technically dervish tune up to play in Eb!). You'll see Donal Lunny playing a 10-string sometimes (like in this video!). The mandolas sometimes are capoed to go up to DAEB tuning.

The two pair surprisingly well. The bouzouki normally gets the driving bassline, the mandola a bit more of the texture/rhythm.

Probably just to narrow it down a bit for you, try find clips of Donal and Michael on youtube that show a bit more of what they are doing both right and left hand!

I think the instrument most likely to suit what you are after will be a GDAD-tuned bouzouki/OM or Tenor guitar, they all work quite well with this tuning.

[Daniel Vance]

Thanks for all the responses, especially the links to videos and the comments on Beth Patterson. I came across her website a few days ago (after the post), and she is actually playing in town next week at a festival the group I've been playing with is performing at, so I will now definitely stay to speak with her about instruments and potential lessons.

Haven't checked out Herb Taylor. Will check him out soon. Was interested in what I had seen at bigleaf. Also liked the look of Joe Mendel, Nyberg, N K Forster, and Bob Gernandt.

Also had a chance to see some really great players at a festival in Jackson, and all three were playing Joe Foley instruments. Each of which had an amazing but very different sound.

[RBMB]

Check out the Sarah Jaroz thread I started recently. Great video posted by another member.

I think you need to play a few different styles, which is hard. Only a few shops have more than one, with The Mandolin Store being one. Playing them you will find great differences in feel and sound that I don't think come across when you watch videos.

[PseudoCelt]

Both Planxty and Dervish pair a GDAD bouzouki with CGDA mandola (technically Dervish tune up to play in Eb!)... The mandolas sometimes are capoed to go up to DAEB tuning.

I think the Gibson mandola that Andy Irvine used in Planxty was usually tuned FCgc, just below a mandolin. The capo on the second fret gives GDad with a scale length similar to a mandolin.

Patrick

[vernob]

Being a cittern player I take issue with the notion that 10 strings are too many. An octave mando has 8 strings as does a zouk. So your chord forms or note patterns are formed by those tunings. My cittern allows me to tune the bottom four courses or the top four like a zouk or an OM. You can add a low course or a high course and still have the familiar forms on the remaining courses. If the scale is shorter you can have GDAEA or GDAEB if you want all fifths. Mine is GDADG with zouk forms. If it's a longer scale you can put in a low course tuned to C or D. CGDAE (all fifths) or DGDAE or souk like CGDAD or DGDAD.

[Rob Zamites]

Being a cittern player I take issue with the notion that 10 strings are too many. An octave mando has 8 strings as does a zouk. So your chord forms or note patterns are formed by those tunings. My cittern allows me to tune the bottom four courses or the top four like a zouk or an OM. You can add a low course or a high course and still have the familiar forms on the remaining courses. If the scale is shorter you can have GDAEA or GDAEB if you want all fifths. Mine is GDADG with zouk forms. If it's a longer scale you can put in a low course tuned to C or D. CGDAE (all fifths) or DGDAE or souk like CGDAD or DGDAD.

This is why I ordered a cittern from Stan Pope. Versatility, versatility, versatility.

[Daniel Vance]

Being a cittern player I take issue with the notion that 10 strings are too many...

Sorry for any offense. I more meant for me personally I worry that that 5 courses would be too many. I started my string playing life as a bass player. I attempted to play some guitar in college, but never got very good as I could never really get may hands and mind around the 6 strings. I have played on some friends' basses that have 5 strings, and I mostly disliked the experience as the necks were just too big and they never felt comfortable. Plus, I never felt limited by my 4 string.

Since then I have started learning and love both Ukulele and Mandolin (both four strings). I got my wife a banjo and in trying them all out, we ended up with a 4 stringed tenor. I also play tuba, and mine happens to have 4 valves. So the trend seems to be 4.

But you may be right, having a lower note (even if just for the sympathetic vibrations and occasional really low notes) may open up a world of options and colors that I had not previously envisioned, and if I can indeed keep the same format of tuning, it may all work out. Maybe the issue was the tuning of the guitar and not the numbers of strings.

As this is the very of beginning of the journey, you are correct that I should not limit myself.

[Daniel Vance]

So met Beth this weekend and she is a great player and seemed very nice. She gave me one of her cards, and as I move forward I will definitely contact her for advice and help learning.

She also, as it happens, plays a Joe Foley instrument. That makes every bouzouki player I have spoken to thus far (5 at this point) playing an instrument by the same maker, and all have sounded great. From what I understand, Joe has no online site / e-mail and that I will have to speak to him by phone. Does anyone have any additional information about getting an instrument built by Joe.

I am currently planning on writing Herb Taylor, Joe Mendel, NK Forster, Nyberg, and Bob Gernandt at some point just to open up conversations about possible instrument builds and to try and get their philosophy in building, timelines, and costs.

Are there any other makers I should look into at this point?

[garryireland]

Davy Stuart all the way and the exchange rate means you can get a zoukt 4 half the price of a Foley

[dmcginnis]

Phil Crump (Califirnia) and Paddy Burgin (New Zealand) are excellent builders. I had Paddy build an OM for me and love it. A good friend played it last May and promptly ordered one, too. Great guy to work with...you can search the forum for the build thread on mine.

Crumps don't show up used very often but are Marvelous, too. Dervish's Michael Holmes plays a Crump.

Cheers,
Dave

[ptritz]

Nick Apollonio is another builder worth talking to.

[Rob Zamites]

I'm still voting for Stan Pope of Bigleaf Mandolins - very well built quality instruments and will not break the bank. I'm planning on having mine until I'm dead and gone. NFI, just very satisfied.

[Daniel Vance]

So, I have started looking at all the ones suggested and the ones that caught my eye and am putting them next to each other in a spreadsheet to compare, but this has gotten me really thinking about price.

The ones I have done thus far have ranged from a base price of about $1450 to a base price of $5000.

I personally experienced the difference between a $500 mass made mandolin (my first mandolin) and a far more expensive hand made mandolin (Northfield Big-Mon)that I am now playing. The ease of playing, the sound, the volume, the quickness of response, etc... When I played my current mandolin the first time, I felt like I was playing a totally different breed of instrument, so I am curious on the difference in these prices from all 1 man / hand built shops hand built shops.

I know some of it comes down to name, with more "well known / established" builders with longer wait lists being able to demand a higher price. I can also see some differences in the amount of detail (binding, inlays, finish), but are there drastic differences in play-ability and sound?

@Rob, do you have any videos or reviews of your bouzouki?

[garryireland]

Rob has a video on a different thread entitled Pope 3 course bouzouki

[Rob Zamites]

@Rob, do you have any videos or reviews of your bouzouki?

Sent you a PM, friend.

[otterly2k]

I think maybe it bears mentioning that looking at pre-owned instruments will allow you to afford more quality at lower price points than new custom builds. I'm not trying to discourage you from commissioning an instrument, but I think it would be wise to start on a pre-owned instrument so that you can develop a feel for it... it will help you refine your preferences when hiring a builder to make something just for you. The nice thing about pre-owned instruments is that they don't lose a lot of value as long as you take care of them. So keep an eye on the Classifieds CBOM section. There's a lot of nice stuff coming up there these days - a lot of us did / do catch-and-release with the CBOM's before settling on the instrument that is just right for us... because there's really nowhere to go to compare very many at a time, especially the nicer ones...
KE

[Rob Zamites]

I think maybe it bears mentioning that looking at pre-owned instruments will allow you to afford more quality at lower price points than new custom builds. I'm not trying to discourage you from commissioning an instrument, but I think it would be wise to start on a pre-owned instrument so that you can develop a feel for it... it will help you refine your preferences when hiring a builder to make something just for you. The nice thing about pre-owned instruments is that they don't lose a lot of value as long as you take care of them. So keep an eye on the Classifieds CBOM section. There's a lot of nice stuff coming up there these days - a lot of us did / do catch-and-release with the CBOM's before settling on the instrument that is just right for us... because there's really nowhere to go to compare very many at a time, especially the nicer ones...
KE

Exactly, Karen! I'd have never opted to go with a customer built instrument until I'd tasted a pre-owned model. FWIW, that APC in the classifieds (NFI, just wish I had even more money) sounds killer: