What do you guys think of this Bowl-back?

[JohnMayes]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=10179

opinions? Suggestions. I wanna learn some Mando, and I'm more drawn to this style of Mando rather than the a or F styles. comments and reccomendations welcome.

[Jim Garber]

Well, you came to the right place if you are drawn to bowlbacks. Welcome to the club.

Mike Holmes in his Mugwumps FAQ says: Eugene Howard was the Cincinnati, OH maker of Howard brand instruments c1896-1920s. They were distributed by Wurlitzer, a major wholesaler, with branches in Cincinnati and Chicago. Later, Howard became a Wurlitzer brandname.

This may very well be a decent bowlback. It certainly is pretty fancy looking. On the other hand, you may get a better sounding and playing instrument for that money sticking with a plainer model Vega, Martin or Washburn.

Also, as one who has bought all too many bowlback mandolins on eBay, here is my one caveat: they all need the luthier's touch to make them playable instruments. That and the other caveat which is ultralight strings, NOT J74s or the equiv.

Jim

[JohnMayes]

thanks for the info. I have no problem with doing a little work on it as I dabble in a little Lutherie one might say. I just thought it was a nifty looking one, and thought I'd ask about it. I don't really casre too much about the looks of it. I mean I like the cool pickguards, but I'm indifferent about the shell border, and such. But I DO want it to sound good! I have no problem with extra lights either...hmmm..

[JohnMayes]

Also...this is a different question. But what kind of Mando was the guy playing in Cold Mountian. I saw the movie but not being the bowl-back-buff I had no clue. thought it was pretty darn cool though...

[JohnMayes]

Sorry to bombard you all with questions.. but what is this one? : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....y=10179

[Eugene]

Not at all. #I think many folks here like the questions, Mr. Mayes.

The mandolin in Cold Mountain looked like a very cheap, pre-WWII German mandolin. #The mandolin was almost entirely unknown in North America until the 1880s or so, so its presence in the film was a bit anachronistic.

On the Eugene Howard, it looks much fancier than anything else I've seen with that label. #Here are the issues I noticed at a superficial first glance: there is the acknowledged top crack and it looks like there may be a second, also trivial; the bridge rests behind the cant, usually a sign that the neck has warped to a degree to require the extra compensation (there were exceptions built for the bridge to rest behind the cant, most notably Vega, but I'm not aware if Howard ever built this way); and the celluloid of the pickguard is degrading and cracking.

On the last eBay piece you've posted, this is a ca. 1960s-1970s Japanese Mandolin, likely from the Suzuki factory. #They were very neatly crafted with rather heavy soundboxes and feeble necks; i.e. strings stout enough to adequately stimulate the soundboard will eventually warp the neck.

[JohnMayes]

ahh..I thought the second one was a cheapie..

Well I guess I'll just keep an eye out for a nice old washburn or somthing. #I don't want to mess with something that has had a warped neck and the bridge has had to be #moved to compensate..that is no good. #there are quite a few Washburns on Ebay. #Here is a cool Martin too...thoughts on this one? #Or heck someone just find me a cool one to buy for my first one..but not a peice of crap.

what is your take on this martin? #What Model? #Apx. Value? it satisfies my urge for the cool pickguard but is not overly fancy....I e-mail them and asked for a price...what do you guys think it would be worth? Caus eI don't even know what model it is.... #Martin Mando

[Jim Garber]

John:
I have played that very instrument. In fact, it was one of the highlights from my "Mandolin Adventure Day" thread elsewhere on this board. Here is my report:

After my visit to Patelson's I went downtown to 48th Street which is (or was) the main music street in NY. Upstairs, in the acoustic section at Rudy's music there is a rather nice 1906 (sn 1918) Style 3 (I believe) Martin bowlback. I told the folks there to immediately change the strings to the requisite light gauge and I detuned it for them after playing it for a short time. As with all these, it is playable but needs that luthier's magic touch to be a real playing instrument. They were asking $1500 for this mandolin, prob somewhat on the high side IMHO, but likely it will be there for awhile and possibly negotiable. Contact info for those interested. Here is a picture and some description. It would be nice to have it in the "family."

======
I believe that there was some repair work doneon the bowl. You can sort of see it in their photo. I never asked if there was a case. BTW VG Price Guide lists a Style 1 (less fancy) at $1100.

Jim

[JohnMayes]

hey that's cool. Still a little out of my price range...especially for a first mando..I was hoping to see somehting south of $500..guess a washburn may be the ticket...any other suggestions..

[vkioulaphides]

Or a lower-end Vega, if you are lucky.

Speaking of Vegas, I must second and emphasize what Eugene pointed out earlier: Unlike Vegas, the vast majority of mandolins were of course meant to have the bridge on the "upper side" of the cant (to point out the obvious). Now, if the previous owner of the instrument you posted has had to move the bridge this FAR southwards to compensate for a warped neck, well, the warp must be rather significant. I have a couple of vintage instruments which have needed minor adjustment of the bridge location but, in their case, we are talking about a millimeter here and there, and still on the "right" side of the cant.

And, compensation and all, will the frets intonate correctly with this wacky relocation of the bridge? It's hard to imagine that they would—#or could. Are we talking about a whole new fingerboard? This only brings us back to Jim's original (and always true) concern regarding the extent of work any and every old instrument may need.

Best of luck in your quest.

Victor

[Eugene]

Look into low-end Vega mandolins as well. They are amongst my favorite cheapies. Also, look for pieces with the Ditson label. Ditson was the retailer/publisher that founded the Lyon & Healy Co. (L&H) to serve as its manufacturing arm. Ditson commissioned instruments for their house brand from the likes of L&H (the parent company of the Washburn brand), Vega, and Martin. Most of their commissions were decent pieces and, if in good playable condition, can be good buys in bypassing collectors' premiums associated with the maker's label.

[Eugene]

PS: What kind of material are you looking to play on this, John?

[Jim Garber]

I have no problem with doing a little work on it as I dabble in a little Lutherie one might say. #

Hey John:
I checked out your web site. Dabble indeed! Some very nice looking guitars and ukes.

Get yourself into a good bowlback and maybe a few of us might convince you to start building ones for us.

Jim

[JohnMayes]

Style? I have no style! I lknow like 4 chords on a Mando, but I'm a pretty decent guitar player so I imagine I could pick up the basics pretty quick. I like the style of stuff that thye played in cold mountian...down home stuff!

[grsnovi]

John,

I think the fact that the eBay poster makes so much of the fact that the instrument is an "antique" suggests that they are expecting to get rich off the sale. While it is pretty, mandolins were very nearly a dime a dozen in 1900. I have a style 4 Vega (pictures in the picture area) and don't play it because (to me) it seems old and fragile. If you simply want to learn and are drawn to the Neopolitan (bowl-back) style, Lark in the Morning offers "new" ones. Can't speak to quality but you're buying a pig in the poke over eBay anyway from somebody who wants to sell collectible antiques, not somebody who wants to sell a playable instrument. The fact that he comments that the crack was "professionally repaired" but that does not affect the "overall aesthetics" screams that he is expecting to sell to a collector, not to a player.

It is pretty. It might have problems from having been strung with too heavy a guage string causing neck bowing and/or top dishing. Looking just below the tortoise pickguard I see what appears to be discoloration from where the bridge was probably originally located.

[Jim Garber]

If you simply want to learn and are drawn to the Neopolitan (bowl-back) style, Lark in the Morning offers "new" ones.

Lark's instruments are at best Musikalia which are inexpensive factory instruments pof all right quality. I think if you can find a vintage bowlback in decent condition of the brands named above you are better off in terms of a quality instrument and one that will retain value. You may not even pay all that much more.

I played a few instruments at Larks' store in Seattle and was not too impressed with the quality of them.

Bear in mind that John is also a more than competent luthier.

These bowlbacks are old and fragile but hey they lasted for over a century -- as long as you do not overstring them.

Jim

[Eugene]

I think if you can find a vintage bowlback in decent condition of the brands named above you are better off in terms of a quality instrument and one that will retain value. You may not even pay all that much more.

...And may even pay considerably less! I have paid as little as $136.50 for a functional antique Neapolitan-type American mandolin by a respected maker in Brazilian rosewood requiring no more than appropriate strings and a good cleaning.

[Eugene]

Get yourself into a good bowlback and maybe a few of us might convince you to start building ones for us.

...Or repairing them!

[Jim Garber]

Folks...

I think John is on the modest side when he says he has some luthier experience... take a look at his work on his site.

Jim

[spud]

With how nice looking your guitar's and uke's are
you could get your hand's on a good cylinder back (Vega?) and spec it out....... you could build one fine mando!!!!!!

Fine stuff John Mayes!

-------------
Boyd

[Jim Garber]

Hmmm, good idea, Spud! We must educate Mr. Mayes...

Jim

[grsnovi]

hummm,

Clearly John knows his way around the woodshop. Beautiful work! I suspect that he'd have no problem dealing with any problems that instrument might have. I still think that based on the way that the ad is worded, the seller is hoping to snag a "collector".

My suggestion of something "new" stems from my own personal reluctance to wail away on a 100 year old instrument.

[Jim Garber]

My suggestion of something "new" stems from my own personal reluctance to wail away on a 100 year old instrument.

Well, I come from the other end of the highway, so to speak. Almost all my instruments are vintage and I play them relentlessly. There are times when I feel like I am supporting the lutherie industry but I also love these old dusty strings and get off on the stories and songs they all hold.

Besides, they are a lot older (and wiser) than I and have lasted this long. Yes, the bowlbacks seem esp fragile but with care they will outlast us all. And Gibson mandolins are built like tanks. Even the moderately abused ones are still playing.

Jim

[Eugene]

For me, it's a simple, unromantic matter of cost. I make my way through life on the paltry salary of a field biologist (i.e. one step north of the destitute border). With a little shopping practice, many old and/or historic instruments are simply cheaper than new instruments or modern reproductions. It's been my experience that this rule of thumb generally holds true for working-class instruments dating back to roughly (very roughly) 1830 or so; if you'd like an instrument of a style to predate ca. 1830, you're then better off to commission a reproduction. Of course, Eugene's general cheapness-of-antique-working-class-chordophones rule of thumb does not hold true for high-end instruments by luthiers of major repute like Staufer/Stauffer, Schertzer, the Vinaccia clan, Panormo, Calace, Embergher, Lacote, etc.

[vkioulaphides]

And yet [QUOTE] "Eugene's general cheapness-of-antique-working-class-chordophones rule of thumb" does work— on occasion, at least

A few weeks ago, I was a-lurkin' again... German eBay this time. Someone had an, uhm, dunno, ooooold mandolin, hey, is it worth ANYthing, "ich weiß eigentlich nichts", it says 1886... So, I lurked, as it stagnated in the 50-euro range for a week or so. Unfortunately for me, some not-so-clueless folks skyrocketed it to the eight-HUNDRED euro range on the last day

Oh, by the way: It was a near-mint-condition, maple-bowl Vinaccia (as in Achille & Gennaro). Oh, how I would have gloated, had I caught this fish for under $100! But the gods protected me from such arrogance and conceit...