Less is More?

[Tom Coletti]

I've noticed something rather interesting with my Deering Sierra fiver. Most setup guides recommend cranking the tailpiece down close to the head so that there would be more of a break angle and more pressure going down on the bridge for more sound transfer, but when I did so, it seemed to restrict the instrument considerably, choking off the sustain up the neck and removing favorable tonal qualities. When I reset the tailpiece to a higher position with a bit less down pressure, the sustain, responsiveness, evenness, and ringing richness of tone really came out of the instrument without sacrificing brightness and clarity.

My question is, does this sometimes hold true for mandolins? While some people prefer raising the bridge and increasing the break angle to get the most transfer from the strings to the top, can this actually dampen the top? Is it sometimes better to lessen the angle to avoid restricting the top's vibrations?

--Tom

[OldSausage]

Yes

[Marty Jacobson]

It's a variable. Can driving fast make you crash? Yes. But that doesn't mean that driving slowly is always safer (especially here in Atlanta).
Can too much neck angle affect the tone of an instrument? Yes.
But don't conclude that a lower neck angle is always better, or conversely. I have instruments in my current batch with rather high neck angles, and rather low neck angles. Changing the neck angle also requires changes to the design of the soundboard, tailpiece, bridge, etc. It's a system.

[bart mcneil]

I would be tempted to answer "yes" as well except on a mando tailpiece there is no option for increasing or lightening downward pressure on the strings that is set by the tailpiece manufacturer Although you can likely bend the tailpiece to varying pressures.
But I think another difference is the actual difference between a banjo and a mando. Even a steel stringed banjo has very little downward pressure on the bridge, while on a mandolin the downward pressure is far greater. I would think that the increassed downward pressure on a mando would in fact deaden the sound.

[Tobin]

My question is, does this sometimes hold true for mandolins? While some people prefer raising the bridge and increasing the break angle to get the most transfer from the strings to the top, can this actually dampen the top? Is it sometimes better to lessen the angle to avoid restricting the top's vibrations?

Yes, and it really depends on the instrument itself, the type of music played, the environment in which it's played, the preference of the player, etc. There really isn't one answer here. Some mandolins will respond better to higher downforce on the top than others. And the same holds true with string gauges, while we're on the subject. I've found it to be true myself, and others have experienced it as well. A set of 'heavy' strings may make one mandolin sound fantastic while it just mutes/dampens another mandolin.

This is what makes it fun to find a new mandolin; it can take years to find the right combination of strings, action height, etc., that make it sound just the way you want.

[stevedenver]

I agree with the above. experiment.

however, you should be aware that string tension remains constant, regardless of bridge height or break angle, or, changing the length between bridge and tail, or, bridge and nut. long winded way of saying , you're not really changing the pressure on the top, at least as far as I recall my bob Benedetto book..

one thing is for certain, and I know from first hand experience not only with mandos but with les pauls

a steep break angle will cause premature bridge failure. (not likely on a banjo as the head will have more give than the bridge).

imho, don't lower the tailpiece to get more break. most likely all you will do is adversely affect ease of tuning, the bridge, the tailpiece and other stuff, while not increasing pressure. strings like to be straight. this helps with tension behind the nut and between the tail and bridge being easily 'equalized'.

you may indeed change other aspects regarding sound and feel. the old L5s actually had a little screw that monkeyed with the tailpiece height for this reason, it was later abandoned.

while additional pressure on the top will move more air,
I would instead have moderate angles and increase string gauge

I have messed with this on my mandos, with higher string height being my norm for five years.
I tend to use medium strings. sometimes heavy, and I sometimes play rather heavy handedly, so a bit more height helped string buzz.

I am fairly comfortable adjusting to different heights, neck widths etc so this height didn't bother me

recently I really dropped my bridge saddle because of my finger issue, thinking it might reduce string tension a bit. it didn't. tension will be the same for any given pitch, with any given gauge, regardless of bridge setting, period.

according to my unscientific subjective ears and hands ......

I found zip zero zilch difference in sound, tension, sustain or perceived volume (from the driver's seat) when I dramatically lowered my bridge/strings, like almost an electric guitar now-thin dime width as opposed to 2 nickles earlier.

what I didn't know, is that the really high frets play just as easily, and in fact more so> I had thought that a bit of height would give me greater fret clearance, 'take off angle' and clarity; in reality up there theres enough tension that it doesn't matter.

likewise on my archtop L5c, from pretty high, to accommodate slide, to really low-no deeeefaaareeence

if you want to move more air, go with a higher gauge and don't overdo the break angles, imho.

more isn't always more. unless you're jim triggs....LOL.

[Mandoplumb]

If the tailpiece could be the high enough to make the strings the same height as the top of the bridge the tension would remain the same but the down pressure would be almost zero, wouldn't it? Seem to me break angle would have to affect down pressure. Would more pressure make the mandolin sound better, worse, or no different, I don't know

[Ivan Kelsall]

As a banjo player i understand exactly what you mean. Too much is exactly that,& overbrightness in a Banjo for me ruins the tone. Again as a banjo player,i know that the Holy Grail of banjo tone is the tone that Earl Scruggs pulled out of his pre-war Mastertone back in the early '50's. That's the same as the Holy Grail of mandolin tone being that of Bill Monroe's mandolin.
We have to remember that Earl was using a natural skin (hide) banjo head & that his tailpiece wasn't adjustable up or down,he most likely tightened the head until it sounded right to him.Those heads would absorb moisture in the air or dry out,causing the tone to change maybe on a daily basis. What you did on your Deering was correct. You liberated the tone of it. I set the tailpiece on my Stelling up off the head so that the strings run in a straight line to the bridge = no back pressure - then i give a 1/2 turn on the screw that pulls the t/piece down, just enough to ensure that the strings stay in the bridge slots. That way,the down pressure is less & it allows the bridge to vibrate more = it's not being crushed downwards by the string pressure. It's important with banjos to have a degree of 'mellowness' as well as having volume.To me there's nothing worse than hearing a banjo's lower D string making a staccato 'doink' sound rather than the nice open note that it should make & banjos need a degree of sustain that high down pressure will adversely affect.
I suspect that in mandolins,it 'might' be very much the same,but,there's such a degree of difference in one build to another,even by the same builder that it would take a huge amount of experimentation to find out. As Mandoplumb says above,it could make an instrument sound better or worse.
A good question & one that a lot of folks would like to know the answer to,
Ivan

[stevedenver]

If the tailpiece could be the high enough to make the strings the same height as the top of the bridge the tension would remain the same but the down pressure would be almost zero, wouldn't it? Seem to me break angle would have to affect down pressure. Would more pressure make the mandolin sound better, worse, or no different, I don't know

good point and observation. I don't know either, but I have come to know, over my years, that often extremes in set up are "not good". its an interesting point, because so long as the string hits the bridge solidly, then the vibrations are transmitted to the top and chamber. I dont know, if more down pressure changes (increases) this. I do know the practice of lowering the stop bar on an Les Paul is popular for 'better coupling' to the body, (which increases break angle too) etc but I think its largely if not completely myth, having done this, as well as top wrap (supposedly lessens string tension) and other clever things , which for me, never made me hear any difference nor feel one either.