eBay seller refuses return - what would you do?

[Tom C]

So you want to return it because you are not happy with the case? Good luck. It's an auction. There are some risks in buying this way.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Well, it is a question of who caused the damage, not which is easier. If the shipper is at fault, the seller should not be responsible for that. (not saying that is the case here, don't know) As a seller, I get that with buyers not wanting to wait and take the easy route and file the claim with eBay, rather than the shipper. I call that "being slick" and not being honest. As a seller, I insure shipments for that reason, damage can occur. If a buyer sends the instrument back to me, I am stuck with a damaged instrument, I cannot sell. I think most people would agree, that a $1000 return is not something I can "absorb" as a small time seller. $1000 will disrupt my month, for sure. (I absorb $25-100 returns, all the time, rather than fill out a bunch of paperwork) And you are correct, the shipper will deny any responsibility and say it is your fault, either the buyer or the seller. If you do get a refund, it will take a minumum of 30 days, probably months, in actual practice. So, I see why people take the easy route.

If the SHIPPER is at fault then the onus is on the Seller to file a claim with them. EBAY rules state that the Seller is responsible for the item until the Buyer receives it in good condition... Since the Seller has a NO RETURN policy, the Buyers only course is to file with Ebay.

[Seonachan]

So you want to return it because you are not happy with the case?

No. Nor did I say that I did.

But I do think it's irresponsible of a seller to a) jam a 17" scale mandola into a mandolin case (something that required force to do); and b) not mention this fact in the listing. I wouldn't have a legitimate complaint if it was a mandola case in abysmal condition, since the seller stated nothing about the case's condition. But I hardly think it was a failure of due diligence on my part not to ask the seller before bidding whether the case matches the instrument.

Let me clarify once again: my main concern - and the only thing that would make me definitely want to pursue a return right now - is whether the time spent in a too-short case could have compromised the integrity of the instrument.

[barney 59]

I guess your saying that you got this instrument at a very good below market price ---or ---- after receiving it you played it and it is the best sounding flatiron that you ever heard---because you were sold an item that you received that was not what was described
A) An ill fitting and unusable case, (if the listing said "case included" it is fair that you would expect it to be a case for what you purchased otherwise he could have sent it in a cardboard box with a jewel case thrown in and to my mind it's really exactly the same thing ---other that one is an obvious rip and the other just a little less so ! B) Finish damage that was not in the description but was present when you received the package- It's of no consequence how it happened,it's there! You can speculate how and when it happened but you really don't know. The seller should make good on the deal,if nothing else an adjustment for the purchase of a proper (used maybe) case and something back for the finish damage(if in fact that is all it is). The question is-- Is it feasible that you can get a replacement for the price you paid with a real case and without the damage? Since the seller is reluctant you should start the ball rolling with ebay while you investigate that option.

[mrmando]

I think most people would agree, that a $1000 return is not something I can "absorb" as a small time seller.

Well, then, if you were the seller in this instance, you'd need to persuade eBay that the buyer caused the damage by opening the box too soon, and make darn sure you followed all your shipper's recommendations for packing.

I have an instrument going to Montana right now, where it's butt cold ... I'd better remind the buyer not to be in too much of a hurry to open the box.

[catmandu2]

Let me clarify once again: my main concern - and the only thing that would make me definitely want to pursue a return right now - is whether the time spent in a too-short case could have compromised the integrity of the instrument.

Likely, any structural compromise resulting from such improper, short-term abuse would be immediately evident; it wasn't happy being impinged as it was, but it has a short memory and now that it's free, it's happy again.

I once did this to my upright: placed it in the bed of a pick-up, and while I was thinking that maybe it wasn't going to fit--someone slammed up the tailgate. It rode all the way to the gig like that--I was wondering whether it was going to implode when we opened up the tailgate (it didn't...still, an excruciating experience)

[mrmando]

I guess your saying that you got this instrument at a very good below market price

I don't think $500 is below market for a Flatiron Scout mandola ... at least not significantly so.

Either it fits in the case or it doesn't ... if structural damage occurs from stuffing a mandola into a case, it's most likely to happen right away, I should think, if it's going to happen at all. Look inside with a flashlight and a dental mirror, and look carefully at the headstock, especially where it joins the neck. If you don't see any stress fractures around the neck block and tail block, or along the neck, I doubt any are going to develop later on.

But then I'm no expert.

[Jeff Mando]

Getting a little tedious at this point, but I'll try.

1. Buyer opened a cold instrument too soon and the finish cracked. Seller is not at fault. Buyer didn't know, so who pays? Buyer's Homeowner's Insurance possibly? Buyer now says the finish cracking is not an issue, so nobody needs to pay now.

2. Instrument jammed into too small of a case. Did it break in two? No. Is there damage showing? No. Did it flex? Possibly. Does it play fine? He says it does. Again, no issue here. You can't predict possible future damage from being in a state of flex. I'm guessing there will never be a problem. Same as if you yell loudly at your instrument, you might hurt your instrument's feelings deeply, but again, we cannot see any damage, so nobody pays.

3. Buyer does not like the case. You can sell the case and buy a proper one. Everything is now good.

4. Or, if you decide you really don't like the instrument, just sell it yourself to someone else, either here or eBay or wherever. No need to involve the seller at all. No problem. Like ya say, you probably want to sell the case separately.

5. I don't see an issue with the seller at this point. I think in fairness to the buyer, eBay encourages returns, which makes a small time seller have to conform to a Walmart level of customer service. (even when stating on the front end--NO RETURNS.)

6. If you return the guitar to the seller, damage could also occur in the return transit. My best guess is that the truck was loaded the night before and spent the night outside in sub-freezing temps. Just bad luck. But the buyer seems to be confused as to what the problem actually is.

7. I've been in situations like this before with buyers and it gets to a point where we seem to be speaking different languages, and neither wants to give in because money is at stake.

8. Like I said before, regardless of the details or even the blame, eBay will always give the buyer a refund.

[Petrus]

I've had a couple of issues with returns and share most people's concerns with eBays peculiar and often labyrinthine rules and regulations. I don't like the so-called "hassle free" return policy which puts small sellers at a disadvantage. I do my best to describe items accurately. And what's to stop a purchaser from deliberately doing a little bit of damage to an item and then claiming it was already there? It's hard to prove unless you really take a lot of photos for your own archives ahead of time (not a bad idea now that I think of it.)

I had sold a vintage comic book and upon receipt, the buyer claimed two (advertising) pages were missing. That's something I easily could have missed on my end (I now make it a point of counting the pages before listing the item, but I didn't do it before then); I can't prove the buyer got buyer's remorse and removed the two pages himself. (They were ad pages, not story pages, otherwise I would have caught it; I think it was petty of the buyer to make a fuss about missing ad pages, but it's his right.)

I recently sold an acoustic bass that I had bought with a broken-off headstock and repaired with epoxy. The repair was fine; I made it clear in the description and the photos that the thing did once have a broken head stock and that I repaired it and that the repair was clearly visible (and showed photos which clearly showed the repair.) The buyer ended up saying that the break by the head wasn't the problem, but that the instrument had a curve in the neck causing buzzing on many frets, which I hadn't noticed myself. The buyer struck me as a decent guy, so I gave him the benefit of the doubt on that one and refunded him about half the purchase price and let him keep the instrument (it's a big damn thing to have to repack and ship, and I didn't want it coming back again.) I suggested he try replacing the saddle and nut to make the action higher. He was mollified, but I ended up just breaking even at best. Not a sustainable business model.

Ebay doesn't give you an option to dispute; when a buyer requests a return, a page pops up that gives you three options: 1) full refund, buyer sends back item at your expense; 2) partial refund subject to buyer's approval, and buyer keeps item; 3) full refund and you let the buyer keep the item (!) There's no option to dispute the return request.

[Petrus]

Since the Seller has a NO RETURN policy, the Buyers only course is to file with Ebay.

Which is actually the easiest thing to do; far easier than filing a claim with any shipper. You just click a button that says "request return," type in a sentence or two for your reason, and eBay immediately puts the onus on the seller to give you a full refund or offer a partial refund (which you may refuse.) Those are the only options that eBay allows the seller. It doesn't matter whether the seller has a no returns policy or not. Most sellers have a no returns policy, but they realize it doesn't make any difference.

[allenhopkins]

...if there's any chance its structural integrity was compromised by the time spent in that case, then I do want to return it. If anyone could speak to that risk, even in general terms, I'd appreciate it….

I'd take the mandola to your usual instrument repair place, and get it checked over thoroughly (dental mirror and light inside, etc.). Probably no structural damage if you're playing it without problems, but it might set your mind at ease, at least partially.

If the too-tight case was packed inside a shipping container, with sufficient packing material, it probably didn't sustain enough of an impact to damage the instrument. I've had mandolins damaged by too-tight cases, but those incidents occurred when I was carrying them around in the case to gigs etc., and they bumped into sides of cars, were set down too hard, and other hazards.

Sounds to me like the seller's a bit of a corner-cutter, not obtaining a proper case and perhaps not totally forthcoming about the condition of the mandola's finish. If you're basically satisfied with the price, sound and playability, and if a pro inspection shows no damage, you're not likely to find and equivalent or better Flatiron mandola; not too many of 'em around. At least that's been my experience.

[Seonachan]

But the buyer seems to be confused as to what the problem actually is.

I suppose that's fair, which is why I came here for advice. I thank you and the others here for setting me straight on the cause of the checking and the reassurance on the possibility of damage. I appreciate having this community to go to when issues like this arise.

I was never going to file a claim just because I could, or because of cosmetic finish checking, or because I feared for its resale value. I was only going to do so if it had been damaged or compromised, and I wrongly thought the finish cracks might be indicative of either.

As for the case, I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the risk, or lack thereof, of shipping/keeping it in there. If it's no more damaging than yelling at it, shouldn't I just keep jamming it back in there? It certainly won't rattle around. But since no one has advised me to do that, I'm skeptical. (By the way, two people now have said that I "don't like" the case; in fact I like it just fine - for an F style mandolin.)

Another thing I didn't mention is that the listed shipping terms were Priority, but he sent it parcel post (or whatever they're calling it now), because he apparently miscalculated the price. Between that and the whole case thing I certainly don't have a high regard for the seller, but pushing a return claim isn't going to rectify any of those issues.

[Petrus]

You can ask for a partial refund, if you can argue your case convincingly about the mismatched case and cracks. You might get $50 back if it's worth a positive rating for the seller.

[darrylicshon]

Just last week i bought a 100 year old reverse scroll mando asked her to loosen the strings before shipping, well when i opened the case the neck had broken off fairly clean break i can tell she didn't loosen the strings, but i took a photo sent it to her, had to send it back, but she has issued a refund the mandolin wasn't worth much but i like those reverse scroll mandos atleast i got to touch one all in all the seller didn't pack right, but did the right thing in the end without involving ebay

[westsideryan]

This thread really got me thinking.

I am starting to get nervous about selling on eBay. If you send out a perfectly good instrument and the buyer doesn't wait for it to adjust to the temperature and it happens to check, then the seller pretty much eats the cost of the instrument. Seems a little unfair to me.

[Timbofood]

There will always be a buyer that can't wait for a box to warm up, there will always be a seller somewhere with no idea how to safely package, these are the risks that come with eBay or in the first case any shipped instrument.Ryan, pack as carefully as you can, mark the package with a "Wait xxx hours before opening" label (which will be ignored most likely)if you wish. But, it's all a bit of a crapshoot. Win some, lose some.

[lflngpicker]

I too am sorry to hear of the problem. I wouldn't think the structural integrity of your Flatiron was compromised by the case unless the headstock, neck or body were actually broken during shipping, which it sounds like they weren't. The checking was likely on the instrument prior to shipping because that usually occurs over time and is associated with certain instruments. Gibson guitars from the sixties are more likely to have checking than Martins from the same period, as an example. The checking on those Gibsons has little effect on their value, appearance or quality. Best of luck!

[Eddie Sheehy]

Just last week i bought a 100 year old reverse scroll mando asked her to loosen the strings before shipping, well when i opened the case the neck had broken off fairly clean break i can tell she didn't loosen the strings, but i took a photo sent it to her, had to send it back, but she has issued a refund the mandolin wasn't worth much but i like those reverse scroll mandos atleast i got to touch one all in all the seller didn't pack right, but did the right thing in the end without involving ebay

String tension, while certainly not helping a neck that suffers trauma, isn't going to cause the trauma... and most shippers will not entertain a claim if the outside box doesn't show significant damage.

[Jeff Mando]

Just last week i bought a 100 year old reverse scroll mando asked her to loosen the strings before shipping, well when i opened the case the neck had broken off fairly clean break i can tell she didn't loosen the strings, but i took a photo sent it to her, had to send it back, but she has issued a refund the mandolin wasn't worth much but i like those reverse scroll mandos atleast i got to touch one all in all the seller didn't pack right, but did the right thing in the end without involving ebay

I had a similar thing happen a number of years ago on eBay. I bought a really mint condition 60's Silvertone hollowbody electric guitar and the seller being a newbie, didn't loosen the string tension. The guitar, while mint, had a perfectly clean peghead break when it arrived. I handled the situation differently than most people probably would have. Of course, I had a cut and dried case for a full refund, but I decided to keep the guitar anyway and fix it myself, since I got it for such a good price. I felt even repaired it was worth much more than I had in it. I did send the seller pics, mostly to educate him for future sales. I'm sure when I told him I wasn't returning it, he must have felt he won the lottery. I've repaired hundreds of pegheads when I worked at a guitar shop, so I wasn't worried about that. At the time, about 10 years ago, I paid $300 for the guitar and at that time a nice one went for $600 on eBay. Now they are about $1800 on eBay and I recently sold my repaired one for a $1000. So, I'm sure glad I didn't return it! And, it worked out well for both buyer and seller.

[Tom C]

Thanks everyone for the input. Just to be clear, I'm not interested in returning it because of the finish cracks, given the consensus that they came about due to weather and not the stress of the tight case fit. I'm annoyed at not having a hard case for it, but I'm not sure that I'd want to pursue a return for that reason alone. But if there's any chance its structural integrity was compromised by the time spent in that case, then I do want to return it. If anyone could speak to that risk, even in general terms, I'd appreciate it.

Given that I first pursued a "return request", I have until Nov 20 to settle that with the seller, at which point ebay will allow me to submit a claim.

Oh, and while I was busy photographing and uploading etc. my dog ate my brand new winter hat. Maybe I should just go to bed and start over in the morning

OK. Sounds like you did.

[barney 59]

String tension, while certainly not helping a neck that suffers trauma, isn't going to cause the trauma... and most shippers will not entertain a claim if the outside box doesn't show significant damage.

No,but a big thump or big temperature shift while the instrument is under tension might!
Never done it myself but they sell these room temperature gel packs ---a couple of those and some styrofoam might not be a bad idea when shipping an instrument.

[Jeff Mando]

Picture a shipping warehouse, with a boxed guitar 15 feet in the air falling off of a forklift or a shelf. Under tension, even in a hardshell case, the neck will snap and if the box lands flat on concrete--the box will show no damage on the outside. Happens all the time. (that's why they use it to refute your claim, sounds logical, but in reality it happens.)

[Petrus]

String tension, while certainly not helping a neck that suffers trauma, isn't going to cause the trauma... and most shippers will not entertain a claim if the outside box doesn't show significant damage.

Better make sure the outside of the box shows significant damage, then.

[barney 59]

There has been a big assumption in this thread that the buyer likely caused the damage by opening the package too soon --or that the package had been through subfreezing temperatures. I saw a weather map on TV a couple of days ago and unless we're talking about the far North --like Montana high country, the weather has been pretty mild everywhere. I don't think anyone here knows where or when the damage occurred. We just know it's there and that the buyer wasn't expecting it to be there. It could have been there before it was packed or happened anywhere in route, or yes, happen when the receiver opened it. Case in point ---once I had a guitar that I repaired and listed on ebay. I had a buyer and the guitar was still on the stand from when I took the photos for the listing(my bad). My wife in a cleaning frenzy inadvertently knocked it over and snapped the heal of the neck. Now if I was a dirty rotten scum bag I could have glued it together and shipped it, or better yet not fix it at all! "Well it wasn't that way when I shipped It. See, here's the photos!" ---I had the money!
I doubt that this is the case in this particular situation but people get packages all the time. I get work related parts and materials shipped to me nearly everyday. Often I'm not sure what is in the box until I open it or I think it's one thing that I've been waiting for and it's something else---"oops it's a frozen mandolin!"! Fed Ex has a whole page on how to package items from freezing-- or thawing,as the case may be, I guess it would be a good idea for all of us that ship stuff to read and follow their guidelines which I'll bet few of us actually do! If we did then the receiver of the package would be off the hook, you shouldn't be liable for damage caused by simply opening your mail!

[nickster60]

i have bought sold things on eBay since it started and it seems lately I use eBay less and less. I don't buy or sell instruments anymore on the site. I had a run of bad luck with instruments and I don't feel it is worth the aggravation. I do still buy motorcycle parts and books but if it has strings I will pass. There are just so many things that can wrong with instruments I will buy from the big guys who do it everyday. Elderly,Folkmusician,Mandolin Store, etc,etc.