Some more Ellis vs Red Diamond F Questions

[Winfield]

I've got my next mandolin narrowed down to these two builders. With that said, is the Red Diamond more suited towards the harder driving bluegrass stuff or is it a fairly versatile mandolin? The couple of Ellis I have played seemed to be pretty versatile mandolins. Looking for something that will be satisfying to play in a blue grass jam situation as well as playing in a single instrument environment. I'd be interested to hear your first hand experience for those of you that were torn between these two
builders.

Thanks!

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I'm no expert on this at all so take my opinion with a grain of salt. The few Red Diamond's that I have played have been very traditional/Loarish in tone. Heavy on the mid frequencies. The few Ellis F5's that I have played have been more modern sounding mandolins with bigger low end response and very smooth sounding. I believe they are both plenty versatile and in the end, its just about what you like. Both are very suitable for bluegrass or anything really. If you are buying used, try and play some side by side. If you are buying new, talk to each maker, tell them what you want, and see if they will tailor the instrument to your desired characteristics. You really are choosing between 2 first class luthiers and I don't believe you will go wrong with either.

[LongBlackVeil]

I think Ellis are smoother and prettier sounding. The Red Diamond will blow your head off, very powerful and raw

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

I had a friend over a few months ago and we both happened to have some different mandolins on us and we went back and forth comparing tones. I describe this guy as very modern in his playing, definitely has some Thile-esque things going on in his playing. Fast, fluid, great technique and a wonderful clear tone. We had a Randy Wood, a Smart, a Collings, a Kimble and a Red Diamond to pass around. We felt there was a spectrum there with the Red Diamond on the traditional sounding side and the Kimble on the modern side and everything else in between. As modern of a player as he is, he preferred the Red Diamond with the traditional tone hands down. And when he played it, it still sounded just like him!!! My point is its really about what you like and you will "sound like you" on either mandolin.

[Mandoplumb]

Winfield it sounds like you NEED one of each

[Winfield]

Thanks your replies everyone…. especially Mandoplumb (grin).

[guitarpath]

Both are obviously great mandolins made by very highly respected builders, so it ultimately comes down to your personal preference.

With that said, if I had to choose between these two sight-unseen, I would go with the Red Diamond and not look back.

I yet to play a non-vintage mandolin which clearly bested a Red Diamond. They are that good.

[bbaker2050]

So what's the price range for the Ellis and Red Diamond F-styles?

[f5joe]

Here's my stock answer: Buy the one you like best. You'll play it longer and enjoy it along the way. One is not better than another ... just different.

[Winfield]

bbaker - the price for an Ellis F is around $11,500 and comes with a Superior deluxe hard shell case and the price for a Red Diamond Vintage is $13,500 and usually comes with an Austin made Calton case.

[Bradley]

Dennis at the Mandolin store sells his Ellis mandolins with a Calton as well for the 11.5 price listed above.
I believe he has one coming soon into his shop.

[goose 2]

I really like Red Diamond and Ellis mandolins. I've been lucky to play quite a few of both and even owned a vintage voiced RD years ago. There is no way you can go wrong here. If it were me buying I'd get the Red Diamond. The recent ones I have played have been some of the best instruments I have ever played period. I love an amazing traditional tone. It is so versatile. Just listen to all the different styles Grisman, Reischman, Thile, Marshall and many others can play with a traditional voice. Again you cannot go wrong. Like f5 joe says- get the one you like the most and don't look back.

[LongBlackVeil]

oops sorry mispoke

[CES]

I had the pleasure of playing Josh Pinkham's Red Diamond once. It was on of the 3 best mandolins I've played. The other 2 were a real Loar (I've played two, the other was good but didn't blow my doors off) and a Giacomel. I can't really comment on the comparison aspect, as I've never been fortunate enough to play an Ellis, but, though the RD may be more "traditionally voiced," I can't imagine it being limiting in any way. I played songs ranging from Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring to Amanda Jewell by Skaggs, and they all sounded great. Not necessarily my playing, but the mandolin sounded great...

Can't imagine you'll be disappointed in either. But, if you can play both, choose the one that feels best in your hands. Tone is most important, in my opinion, but a very close second is playability. And, honestly, playability will influence not only your tone, but how much you want to play it...so maybe playability is more important...

[almeriastrings]

They are both super mandolins. I've only played one Red Diamond and I thought it was excellent. My own preference, however, was for Ellis. At this level, it is 100% down to taste and preference. I would describe the RD as having more mid-range emphasis, and somewhat 'drier'. The Ellis as more 3-dimensional and 'richer'. They are both about equal in volume and either of them could handle just about anything you gave them.

[LongBlackVeil]

If I could find another RD like the a5 that showed up on Craigslist a while back for like 3500 or something like that, I would now have both an ellis and a red diamond. I think they would compliment each other well

They are my two favorite builders. The only reason I didn't even consider buying a red diamond when I bought my ellis is because i never heard back from Red diamond after trying to contact them

[fredfrank]

I own a Red Diamond Vintage model, and have played it against a few Loars. I don't know if I got into a bad bunch of Loars, but I couldn't wait to put them down and get my RD back in my hands. I've never played the Ellis mandolins, but I wouldn't mind trying them out. I'll bet I'd want one.

[JAK]

Seems like the Red Diamond mandos come up for sale less than the Ellis?

[DataNick]

Seems like the Red Diamond mandos come up for sale less than the Ellis?

That is a very interesting and from my vantage point, true observation...taking nothing away from Ellis.

Don McCrostie lists by serial number the owners of his Red Diamond mandolins on his website, and you're right: the owners really do tend to hold onto them. At least on the Cafe classifieds you can pretty much find an Ellis listed but very rarely a Red Diamond.

[LongBlackVeil]

Yep used ellis don't come up for sale all that often, but Its pretty rare to see a used red diamond.

If red diamonds serial numbers listed on his website are up to date, Red diamond hasn't made quite as many mandolins as the current production of ellis mandolins, but not significantly. 256 for red diamond, my ellis is number 317. I bought it in october but I know there's been a few built after mine of course


Btw, I would REALLY love to see these two mandolins compared in a video. So if anyone is in a position to do that, get on that! Thank you

[Ivan Kelsall]

I've never played a Red Diamond,so i can't comment. However, with my recent acquisition of an Ellis "A" style,& being a banjo player,i can testify that an Ellis,especially if strung with DR strings,& maybe,even the GHS A270's i'm trying at the moment,is perfectly capable of taking on a banjo in a group context. That's assuming that the banjo player isn't trying to drown out the other instruments. The one Bluegrass player i know who plays a Red Diamond,is Johnny Staats & it does sound great. Realistically,buying at that price level,you need to play one of each before you make your mind up,
Ivan

[almeriastrings]

The Red Diamond I played was - in tonal palate, and comparing to mandolins I know well - much closer to my Northfield Master Model and a Jim Triggs 23V than it was to my Ellis or to an excellent Heiden F I had the pleasure to also try not long back. That was just one example, though, and the only one I've ever run into, so it may not be representative of all of them. It was certainly an upper-tier mandolin in construction and tone. It's really like comparing fine wines or beers at this sort of level... quite subtle and all very, very good.

[FLATROCK HILL]

I'm not trying to toss a monkey wrench into this discussion...really I'm not.
I was wrestling with a very similar decision not long ago. I was convinced that the ultimate sound I was looking for in an F5 style mandolin would be found in a Red Diamond or an Ellis. I'd had the opportunity to play both and couldn't really decide which would be best for me. They were both beautiful instruments and although not at all alike in tone, I loved the tone quality of both. An opportunity to buy a Duff came along. I went for it. It has everything I was looking for. To my ears it has a wonderful tone quality that is a combination of the best of the others.

My last comment is not meant to criticize the fit and/or finish work of any of the builders mentioned. I would just say that if fit and finish is a major factor in your final decision, the Ellis F5s I've inspected close-up were as close to perfection as could be imagined.

[Winfield]

LongBlackVeil - I too wish I could find a video comparing the two side by side. In the meantime, I have found these:

Ellis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqxPvoApOyo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqOJiTtHqc0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFRXwDtxDEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYObbCufvoo (the mando in the background music)


Red Diamond:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtPcFC_GH4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxSAB4Fo42Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07N2Oq2BT-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-GchSpdDas

[JAK]

Check out "Nesser" (by John Bryan) on You Tube = John Reischman playing his RD Replica (Vintage 24) in a duet with guitar.