Grace notes, trills, hammer ons, pull offs in classical mandolin

[crisscross]

A sheet music book, that I really like is Jerry Snyder's "Classics for flute and guitar". It contains 19 well known classical pieces by Bach, Mozart, Fauré, Pachelbel and others. Though written for flute, the melodies can be played on any C-instrument.
Yesterday I recorded Bach's "Air on the G-string" with the melody played on the D-String and A-String of my new Suzuki Bowlback.
For my ears, the result isn't so bad, but in measures 3 and 4 there are a grace note and a trill were I was unsure how to execute them. Hammer ons and pull offs seem to work fine in Texas fiddle tunes played on Bluegrass mandolins but on the bowlback,they aren't so convincing.
I had a look through the Mayr-Book, but couldn't find anything concerning the subject.
There are h's and p's above the notes in the first movement of Vivaldi's Mandolin Concerto but no explantion on how to execute them.(I suppose h stands for hammer-on).
I would be grateful if anyone could give me a hint where I could find some advice concerning trills, grace notes and the use of hammer on, pull offs and slides in classical mandolin playing.
Thanks in advance and a happy new year!

[rubydubyr]

A beautiful mellow piece, beautifully done and nice to listen to as I sip my Thanks for sharing.

[crisscross]

Thanks rubydubyr, that reminds me: it's time for my afternoon and a piece of cake

[rubydubyr]

well, its only 9:28am here.....

[crisscross]

I live in Germany, it' already 3:36 pm....

[rubydubyr]

actually, I boo-boo'd, looked at the clock I keep at EST rather than CST, it was really only 8:28 am.

[DavidKOS]

If you are playing from flute editions of then there are added ornaments that are not in the urtext versions.
So it may be the editor's choice not the composer's!

As for playing trills, ornaments, gruppettos, etc, there is a section in Calace's Op. 40 4a Mandolin Solo Method on the appoggiatura, mordent, gruppetto, and trill.

There is similar information in the Munier Scuola del Mandolino Complete, too. Check other vintage mandolin methods too.

[Martin Jonas]

Ornaments are largely a question of taste, especially when playing from editions for other instruments. Even when they are indicated in the urtext rather than editorial additions, they may not be ideomatic or effective on mandolin -- a flute or violin trill is a very different effect from a mandolin trill. In most older classical methods, the default for grace notes and trills is to pick each note, but depending on context and on the type of mandolin you play you may prefer to use pull-offs/hammer-ons instead, or just replace a trill with a bout of tremolo. Preferred classical playing styles are subject to change, just as everything else, and in the same way that classical players now tend to use less tremolo than Munier or Calace, they also tend to play the ornaments differently and use fewer of them.

We've had a number of detailed discussions on the topic in the past -- search for "trills" in the classical forum. To my mind, the best discussion we've had on ornaments was Victor's epic "The Art of Picking" thread from 2005, exactly ten years ago. As a New Year's resolution, Victor played each week in 2005 one of the 50 variations from Tartini's "The Art Of Bowing" and then posted a diary of his technical notes and practice experiences for this piece. As the Tartini piece is essentially a Baroque master class in violin ornamentation, Victor's discussion serves the same purpose for mandolin players: he discussed for every single ornament notated in Tartini's score how he has translated it to the mandolin and why. At one stage I printed out the entire thread intending to work through the variations myself, using Victor's thoughts as a guide, but as with so many good resolutions (especially at this time of the year), I haven't yet got around to it. One of these days...

Martin

[Pasha Alden]

Thanks To Martin. Will certainly look at Victor's notes.

I am at present working on a prelude of Chopin a well-known prelude, those preludes of course were for piano, so different techniques needed to play it and do it justice on mandolin.
I am finding that in this case less is more.
Therefore, I would certainly agree with the point that gracenotes, trills, and the like are certainly more effective than at other times and with other instruments. The same can be said for the effectiveness of tremolo. I tried to do some little tremolos but found that for this prelude only arpeggios and minimal effects needed. The trick is to play the piece and do justice to the mandolin and the prelude.

[DavidKOS]

As a New Year's resolution, Victor played each week in 2005 one of the 50 variations from Tartini's "The Art Of Bowing" and then posted a diary of his technical notes and practice experiences for this piece. As the Tartini piece is essentially a Baroque master class in violin ornamentation, Victor's discussion serves the same purpose for mandolin players: he discussed for every single ornament notated in Tartini's score how he has translated it to the mandolin and why.

thanks for the link...I'm off to read it. The Tartini is a monster workout...hmmmm.

later

so the musical examples are missing, oh well....still I need to read the whole thread.

Here's the music:

http://imslp.org/wiki/L%27arte_del_a...ini,_Giuseppe)

[crisscross]

Thanks Martin, thanks David. Today, I finally found the time to take a look at the Calace method. Alas, I do not understand Italian, but I understand that "des coups rapides avec la plume" means something like "rapid strokes with the flatpick", as a way of executing a trill. So,no h-ons, p-offs in classical mandolin playing? Did Bill introduce them to the mandolin?

[DavidKOS]

Not sure about the answer according to the top experts, but picking each note in the trill seems to be a good effect to my sensibility.

I would use hammer-ons and pull-offs for slurred passages perhaps.

[Beanzy]

So,no h-ons, p-offs in classical mandolin playing? Did Bill introduce them to the mandolin?

They tend to be grouped under left-hand pizzicato techniques which include hammer-on, and at least two types of pull-off that I know of so far (one flicks the finger down and the other is more legato pushing the finger up and away from the string) but I'm sure people will have more at an advanced level.
You'll sometimes see a little 'ms' (mano sinistra) above where they're to be done, but normally it's left to the player to use their training and sensibilities to decide what if any effects would work best anywhere in a piece.

[Jim Garber]

The general consensus is (as Martin and others noted) that in trills and other similar ornaments all notes are picked. The mandolin and esp bowlbacks just do not have much sustain tho with the occasional single-note appoggiatura you might get away with it.

[crisscross]

esp bowlbacks just do not have much sustain

That was exactly my experience. On my A-mandolin, pull-offs work just fine, but on my new Suzuki bowlback the second note seeems not to appear sounding satisfyingly.