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Thread: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

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    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    is it traditional on a violin(or fiddle), to leave the wood bare after doing a "speed neck" or do most folks apply something to seal the wood?

    and is this a thing favored more in classical or more towards the fiddle player in folk/BG, etc

    thanks
    d

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Every violin I have ever seen had an unfinished neck. I don't know if perhaps some oil was applied, but you can see bare wood.
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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    I know that when I asked Mike Kemnitzer if he used any type of sealer on my bare mando neck, he said it was simply bare wood but the oils from my hands would "condition" it over time. It is the most comfortable mandolin neck I have ever had in my hands and a treasure.

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    Sean

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    Registered User fscotte's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    I thought about doing that as well. I wonder do you just fade the lacquer in slightly? Is there any lacquer at all on the neck?

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    MandolaViola bratsche's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    I've seen some really cheap violins that had some sort of finish on the neck, but all the decent ones are as close to naked as I can tell - maybe having had a slight bit of oil applied, or maybe just the oils from players' hands over the years, I don't know.

    bratsche
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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by fscotte View Post
    I thought about doing that as well. I wonder do you just fade the lacquer in slightly? Is there any lacquer at all on the neck?
    There is no finish at all on the "usable" portion of the neck. As far as "just fading the lacquer" in yes, that sounds about right but I am sure it takes a lot of experience to get good results. Best of luck!

    Sean

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    I've seen some really cheap violins that had some sort of finish on the neck, but all the decent ones are as close to naked as I can tell -
    You are right. I forgot. I saw a fiddle that was painted blue, and the neck was blue as well.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    http://www.maestronet.com/forum/inde...h-violin-neck/

    The playing part of the neck seems to have some drying oil on it to make a smooth hard surface, and does not have the same heavier colored varnish applied to the rest of the instrument.

    There is some confusion between "finish" and "varnish"

    Pretty much none of the well made violins have varnish on the back of the neck.

    Most (not ALL) have some sort of finish.

    The makers all have various methods over 3 pages but the result desired:

    "I think that what is important is that the neck surface must be quite polished, as glass, and its feeling must be "dry", as if you were touching dry wood. "

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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by bratsche View Post
    I've seen some really cheap violins that had some sort of finish on the neck, but all the decent ones are as close to naked as I can tell
    I have a really cheap fiddle (made in China) that I got at an auction for almost nothing. Its neck has a finish on it, but no stain. So from a distance it's made to look like an unfinished neck. But it's definitely got a thick layer of clear finish, leaving me wondering what the point was in making it look bare. I think whoever made this VSO didn't understand the point of leaving a neck unfinished. Like so many other things that are often poorly imitated in Asia (not just China), it's made to look like the real deal, but completely misses the mark.

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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    There is some confusion between "finish" and "varnish"
    Just to avoid confusion, my particular Nugget mandolin has NO finish / varnish / lacquer / dyes etc. of any kind on the "usable" portion of the back of neck. My experience leads me to imagine 3 pages would be rather short when discussing anything to do with violins.

    Sean

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    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    thanks folks

    i ended up with this after my first "speed neck" and i really like the feel, smooth as glass and a very dry slick feeling. i didn't want to mess it up and put something on there unknowingly. i think its done.
    thank you all very much for the info,
    d


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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    I think you have a future career in "speed necking", nicely done!

    Sean

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by sgrexa View Post
    Just to avoid confusion, my particular Nugget mandolin has NO finish / varnish / lacquer / dyes etc. of any kind on the "usable" portion of the back of neck. My experience leads me to imagine 3 pages would be rather short when discussing anything to do with violins.

    Sean
    Some of the makers used nothing, but the oils in their hands and such as they worked the neck. Most seemed to seal it with a hardening oil or other substance, but the effect is smooth wood.

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  23. #14
    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by sgrexa View Post
    I know that when I asked Mike Kemnitzer if he used any type of sealer on my bare mando neck, he said it was simply bare wood but the oils from my hands would "condition" it over time. It is the most comfortable mandolin neck I have ever had in my hands and a treasure.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Sean
    Sean
    if you have time, i would love to see a close up of this neck in the same position of that picture i posted. i want to see how both ends are blended.
    i have a friend local who wants me to do his neck after he played my mandolin-i want to blend this one rather than have the more distinct lines of what i did on mine.
    thanks
    d

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Leaving finish off the neck of violins is normal and tend to leave off more then you show on your mandolin neck (congratulations by the way). The unfinished part of the neck starts at the nut and ends where the neck joins the body and the finish lines are at an angle to cover the back of the scroll and the neck heel. I would think that your left hand would still run into the varnish in first position the way you have it now. It looks like a fine job otherwise.
    Charley

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    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles E. View Post
    Leaving finish off the neck of violins is normal and tend to leave off more then you show on your mandolin neck (congratulations by the way). The unfinished part of the neck starts at the nut and ends where the neck joins the body and the finish lines are at an angle to cover the back of the scroll and the neck heel. I would think that your left hand would still run into the varnish in first position the way you have it now. It looks like a fine job otherwise.
    thanks Charles
    i've been scouring around looking for pictures to guide me. if by chance you have a good picture of what one of the violin necks look like i would love to see that.

    its hard to tell in my picture, its slightly obliqued, at the bottom right edge(as you view your screen) if you look you can see the interior edge of the bone nut-thats where i kinda started that line. the rear line stops near the 12th fret area but angles back a little on both sides towards the heel.
    i can still easily remove more finish and may attempt a more blended appearance after i see some examples. its a work in progress(lol).

    thanks again for the input
    d

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Here is a thread about how I did a speed neck on my Eastman 315.....

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...d+neck+Eastman

    I removed the finish at the nut end enough so that I could play the first frets, an F chord for example, and not run into varnish. I think I took it further then most people do though.

    You could play it for awhile as you have it and see where your natural wear pattern starts to show up then adjust it a bit.
    Last edited by Charles E.; Jan-27-2015 at 7:47pm.
    Charley

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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    i think most violin makers do something to the neck, tung oil seems to be the favorite, also some staining with tea, or other things so it is not white and fits more estecally with the varnish. but never varnish or a shellac finish like on the instrument.

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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Daryl, pics in the other thread. D

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    Registered User DavidKOS's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by saintjohnbarleycorn View Post
    i think most violin makers do something to the neck, tung oil seems to be the favorite, also some staining with tea, or other things so it is not white and fits more aesthetically with the varnish. but never varnish or a shellac finish like on the instrument.
    Exactly.

    If you have ever dealt with a violin in the white, you know that the "unfinished" neck is indeed not white, but is treated.

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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    So violin players do not want varnish on the neck due to sliding into the positions. Varnish tends to grab your thumb. I use a very diluted wash of shellac, and polish with a soft cotton cloth. I guess mandolin players dont support the instrument with just the thumb, so the need for the lack of varnish is not as necessary as mandolin players tend to support the instrument with the playing arm. A good fiddler also plays alot of slides up the neck, so a good fiddle would not have a varnished neck either. However, if a fiddle does have a varnished neck, it becomes classified as such, a fiddle, cause you wouldnt have a violin with a varnished neck.
    Here is a pic of a viola that had an original wash coat, but has also been polished over time from use...
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    notice how the varnish fades out in a parabolic fashion. You can lightly sand (220 grit or less) until you achieve this shape, then polish with a natural wax or brush on a light wash of shellac and polish. This will fade your original varnish nicely into the unvarnished area of the neck.

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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman89 View Post
    So violin players do not want varnish on the neck due to sliding into the positions. Varnish tends to grab your thumb. I use a very diluted wash of shellac, and polish with a soft cotton cloth. I guess mandolin players dont support the instrument with just the thumb, so the need for the lack of varnish is not as necessary as mandolin players tend to support the instrument with the playing arm. A good fiddler also plays alot of slides up the neck, so a good fiddle would not have a varnished neck either. However, if a fiddle does have a varnished neck, it becomes classified as such, a fiddle, cause you wouldnt have a violin with a varnished neck.
    Here is a pic of a viola that had an original wash coat, but has also been polished over time from use...
    Click image for larger version. 

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    notice how the varnish fades out in a parabolic fashion. You can lightly sand (220 grit or less) until you achieve this shape, then polish with a natural wax or brush on a light wash of shellac and polish. This will fade your original varnish nicely into the unvarnished area of the neck.
    ah, this is perfect, thank you so much!
    this is what i wanted to see for the blending.
    i like what i did, but its really bright on the eyes due to the dark finish. i used 600 grit and 0000 steel wool to smooth so there is no step up at the finish lines, but for aesthetics-and as Charles mentioned i might need more finish removed-this type of job would do both.

    these pictures are perfect-thanks so much-i think i'll do a touch more on the job before i consider it done
    d

  37. #23
    Registered User darylcrisp's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    i'd like to thank Steve Sorensen and Michael Lewis for advice and information on this task. I used elements from both luthiers and it made a huge difference in the ease of the job and the outcome.

    i don't even want to think about what i had in mind on how to go about this...................

    d

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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Most violins have a "ground" coat applied to the entire surface prior to the final finish. This coat is usually yellowish in color. On all my fiddles the bare neck is kind of yellow, not white like unfinished maple. I like the feel of a speed neck better than any other finish. All my instruments with this get a light treatment of linseed oil once a year. Light coat goes on overnight, then I buff it out by hand with a soft lint free rag.

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    Registered User sgrexa's Avatar
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    Default Re: "violin necks" on violins-do they leave them in the white?

    Quote Originally Posted by darylcrisp View Post
    Sean
    if you have time, i would love to see a close up of this neck in the same position of that picture i posted. i want to see how both ends are blended.d
    This is the best I have handy right now.
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    Sean

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