Bass guitar in Celtic music

[Mike Anderson]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.

What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.

And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.

I think this is well said foldedpath. Certainly there is an Irish ceili band drumkit tradition too, like in the famous Kilfenora band. But those ceili bands are a tradition unto themselves - this is not a bunch of modern pop-rock weaned musos seeking crossover success. You stray dangerously into "Riverdance" territory (IMO) when you add rock band elements.

And hey - at the end of the day it's all different strokes, but as I always remember, I don't have an infinite amount of time to listen to music (or PLAY it), and I just don't care about fusion this and crossover that when there's so much of the past to catch up on and so much goodness right now in the present to find. Esthetic choices, that's all. If one of my band members had suggested adding drum kit I would have fought it and, if outvoted, quit. It's that simple.

[mandocrucian]

Son, even though we are on this hopeless dying planet, surrounded
by ecosystem collapse and cannibalism, we must still stay true to our
cult and heritage until death and extinction! (as if it matters)

Say the words:

• Not to beat on the drumkit; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Not to play on the bass; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Not to chop on the mandolin; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Not to crawl on all-fours before sundown; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Evil are the punishments of those who break the Law. ..... None escape.
• NONE ESCAPE!

[foldedpath]

• Not to chop on the mandolin; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?

We can have a civilized discussion about the rest, but that one? Bluegrass chops in trad? Now we're talking post-apocalypse crossbow duels at 40 paces.

... and that was a terrible movie, just in case we need something else to argue about.

[Bertram Henze]

Drums don't kill the music. Drummers do.

[Dagger Gordon]

It seems clear that people have much more to say about drums than bass guitar.

So OK. Let's look at some other examples. It is true that John Joe Kelly of Flook plays bodhran rather than a drum kit. However, Brian Finnegan's (Flook flute player) new band Kan definitely has a drummer - Jim Goodwin. And just to add a bit of continuity to this thread, here they are playing a Padraig Rynne tune!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFgU0lN_d_A

Clearly Goodwin is doing something that is miles away from those old Ceili Band drummers. Then again you could say the same about their music in general.

Looking for parallels elsewhere, I am a big fan of French guitar/oud/bouzouki player Titi Robin who always seems to like playing with a percussionist - usually this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez2NRhXVIjs

Check out almost anything involving the French/Iranian Chemirani percussion family and I guarantee that you will find some interesting music.
Bijan and Keyvan learnt their art from their father Djamchid and between them have turned up on loads of good stuff. Once again, to add continuity to the thread, here is a clip of Keyvan playing some Breton music with flute player Sylvain Barou (who as noted earlier is also in a band with Donal Lunny and Padraig Rynne!). Also some good (double) bass in this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDNpF8fm77g

[Bertram Henze]

Clearly Goodwin is doing something that is miles away from those old Ceili Band drummers. Then again you could say the same about their music in general.

It's a difference of purposes, too. The Kilkfenora Ceilidh Band is a dancing machine, providing rhythm like a steam engine (and their drumset is quite pathetically inconspicuous, behind all that pumping melody).

This Kan stuff, OTOH, goes far into jazz, moods painted with a soft brush in the cool blue morning light by the sea, like a Richard Murphy poem, and they are good at it. Some may say that it's not the creaky earthenware acoustics associated with folk music, that it's too much electric interstellar Space Paddy, and thus leaving tradition behind. But I'll say that tradition is a moving target, a constant development eternally pushing its borders. If it has the tonality and the rhythm feel, it's Irish. This is not out of tradition, this is tradition.

[Bertram Henze]

Drums don't kill the music. Drummers do.

On second thoughts, I'll not include cajons in this rule. Cajons kill music, regardless of who rides them.

[DavidKOS]

What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.

That is a tougher issue!

[Dagger Gordon]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.

What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.

And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.

It is true to say that the bands you mention did not have kit drums (with the exception of Capercaillie who have used not one but two drummers for a long time now, but didn't when they first started).

However, things have moved on from there, arguably with Moving Hearts (and I still regard their album The Storm as a milestone in Irish music) and later Coolfin. Scottish bands have featured kit drums for a long time now. Virtually all the main Scottish bands such as Old Blind Dogs, Peatbog Faeries, Capercaillie and Shooglenifty etc now have a drummer. And actually a bass guitar.

[Francis J]

I really like the OP's video. It's a complex thing of course, whether it's a living thing, this music, or just a reliving of the past. There is no "correct" answer, and it will be hotly debated, but the incorporation of "new" instruments onto the genre is the very thing that attracts the "non celtic" (Apologies if that term is offensive) audience to what essentially is tribal music. Another great example here...............................

[foldedpath]

It is true to say that the bands you mention did not have kit drums (with the exception of Capercaillie who have used not one but two drummers for a long time now, but didn't when they first started).

However, things have moved on from there, arguably with Moving Hearts (and I still regard their album The Storm as a milestone in Irish music) and later Coolfin. Scottish bands have featured kit drums for a long time now. Virtually all the main Scottish bands such as Old Blind Dogs, Peatbog Faeries, Capercaillie and Shooglenifty etc now have a drummer. And actually a bass guitar.

I guess it depends on what qualifies as a main Scottish band, these days. Is Lau considered Scottish? There are also the duos like Alastair Fraser and Natalie Hass. I know they've done collaborations, but the main duo is drum-less. Then there are artists like piper Fred Morrison who perform solo and with others. I've seen Fred play with guitar and bodhran but not kit drums (although I wouldn't put it past him).

[Dagger Gordon]

I guess it depends on what qualifies as a main Scottish band, these days. Is Lau considered Scottish? There are also the duos like Alastair Fraser and Natalie Hass. I know they've done collaborations, but the main duo is drum-less. Then there are artists like piper Fred Morrison who perform solo and with others. I've seen Fred play with guitar and bodhran but not kit drums (although I wouldn't put it past him).

Lau I would say are a bit different and are really now moving into areas which don't seem to me to owe much to traditional music at all - although you certainly could argue, and you may well be right, that the same could be said of Padraig Rynne's Notify. That's not the way I hear it though. I would say they are considered Scottish, even if Martin Green is from England.

There are certainly duos and other line-ups who don't have drums - notably fiddle based bands like Blazin' Fiddles and Fiddlers Bid, although the other main fiddle band Session A9 does have a drummer.

I think Fred has been playing mostly solo these days. He had Matheu Watson on guitar for quite a long time.

Horses for courses really.

As a side issue, I think the increased use of pick-ups on acoustic instruments now allows for more effective use of drums. Back in the day everybody played through mics and a drum kit on stage was often simply too loud.

Getting back to bass guitars, in the period you seem to be mostly referring to, Silly Wizard were one of the main bands. Essentially an acoustic band - they nonetheless used bass guitar.

[Bren]

I haven't been able to listen to the video in Dagger's original post because of where I am, but some terrific examples of bass playing in fairly "traditional" sounding "Celtic" music I can think of would include Cecil Hughson in Shetland ceilidh band Da Fustra; Buzzby McMillan in the old Blind Dogs and former OBD drummer Davie Cattanach's outings with ceilidh bands round Aberdeen often with bassist Mikey Rae. These guys know the music inside out.

The Chair have a bassist too.

[Dagger Gordon]

To put the original video in some perspective, here is a live clip of what seems to be an earlier version of Notify
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu-8srnR6eY.


Frankly I don't like this much at all. Admittedly it's a live recording, but it doesn't have anything like the subtlety of the newer line-up.

[M.Marmot]

Kids are taught it in school.

They're also taught to play recorder ... but i've not yet seen a session like this

[M.Marmot]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.

What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.

And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.

Thats a wee bit selective a reading, pointedly so, when you consider Planxty -----> Moving Hearts

[M.Marmot]

I am of the same mind as foldedpath here, and I started out playing rock/blues/funk drum kit myself.

While I think bass can be tastefully used in the music (and my old band had a good friend and outstanding musician on Guild acoustic guitar bass with pickup), I do agree about kit drums. I don't think they add anything. Unless you are going to go all-out rock/jazz/Celtic fusion, leave 'em out. Here's Tony MacMahon on an unknown (because not revealed in the video) performance that really resonates with me:

Apparently, the music in question was the title track from a series called 'The River of Sound'

http://www.irishmusicreview.com/aros.htm

[Colin Lindsay]

I'm with Dagger on this. Sounded real good.

And what exactly was the problem with the drums? Sounded real tasteful and appropriate to me.

Besides Fairport Convention, there was Steeleye Span, Horslips, The Woods Band (Terry & Gay Woods), Contraband, Trees, 5-Hand Reel (w/Dick Gaughan), Alan Stivell, Pentangle, Mr. Fox, Albion Country Band, Moving Hearts, Dandoshaft, Hedgehog Pie, Wolfstone and many others out of England, Ireland, Scotland and Brittany that included both bass and drums. I've still got shelves full of LPs of all this stuff, bought more or less when the stuff came out...... and, Nobody was even calling any of this stuff "Celtic" until Alan Stivell came along and started using the term as a descriptive encompassing Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Brittany (to which you can also add the northwest Spanish regions of Galicia and Asturia)

True... haven’t seen 5 Hand Reel mentioned anywhere in a long time!! Loved them and have all their LPs, CDs and singles including the dire ‘Reel Reggae’ which is where NOT to go with a folk band, even with bass and drums…

Bass is a real bonus to an accompaniment, Clannad played one (an dord) and currently Breabach have one on their CD ‘The Desperate Battle of the Birds’ to great effect. It’s just an amplification of the Donal Lunny-like deep bouzouki accompaniment to tunes or songs. Many of the early English folk albums have bass - The Albion Band spring to mind, drums and all, but as for drums - unless as Mike says you’re going all out for folk-rock type stuff stick to a light sympathetic beat; but remember many a ceili band used a snare drum back in the 50s and 60s…!

[DavidKOS]

I saw a Spanish Celtic (Galician) band that had a piper, a guy on octave mandolin, a guy on flute/tabor and pipes, and a bassist.

They were quite good, and the bass was well integrated into the music. Of course this is not Irish-Scottish music but it is "Celtic"!

[JeffD]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.

What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.

And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.

I am more sympathetic with your point than I am coming across (the internet seems to polarize conversation), but let me say this anyway: I hope that the musical traditions in which I participate predate the 1970s.

[Colin Lindsay]

Say the words:

• Not to beat on the drumkit; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Not to play on the bass; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Not to chop on the mandolin; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Not to crawl on all-fours before sundown; that is the Law. ... Are we not Irish?
• Evil are the punishments of those who break the Law. ..... None escape.
• NONE ESCAPE!

I used to be a member of another folk forum, until they started to flood it with posts like: should bodhrans be allowed at sessions… should guitars be allowed at sessions… should banjo players be allowed at sessions…

The finishing touch that made me realise how elitist, pretentious and far up their own orifices some of those posters were was in reply to the question on bodhrans: “If a bodhran turns up at my session I ask him to play the rhythm of a slip jig, and if he can’t, he’s asked to leave…”

God forbid I ever get THAT good on my own instruments that I can bar other musicians.

[Bertram Henze]

“If a bodhran turns up at my session I ask him to play the rhythm of a slip jig, and if he can’t, he’s asked to leave…”

That's an age-old idea:

The Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan opposite Ephraim. And it happened when any of the fugitives of Ephraim said, "Let me cross over," the men of Gilead would say to him, "Are you an Ephraimite?" If he said, "No," then they would say to him, "Say now, 'Shibboleth.'" But he said, "Sibboleth," for he could not pronounce it correctly. Then they seized him and slew him at the fords of the Jordan. Thus there fell at that time 42,000 of Ephraim.
(Judges 12:6)

Maybe that's why the streets outside the pubs are littered with bodhran players, sitting hunched over their instruments, weeping bitterly...

[foldedpath]

Thats a wee bit selective a reading, pointedly so, when you consider Planxty -----> Moving Hearts

Of course it's selective, because this whole conversation can't be separated from one's personal taste in the various forms of this music. I like Planxty, and I don't care much for Moving Hearts or other groups that have gone into what I'd call an "easy listening" or smooth jazz direction with the music. In that respect, we could extend the progression above to:

Planxty -----> Moving Hearts -----> Riverdance -----> Celtic Women.

I ended the continuum where I did with groups like Lúnasa because that's where it ends for me, with bands that don't include synths and kit drums, and aren't aiming for a more crossover audience. Just a personal taste thing. Others will have different preferences.

I am more sympathetic with your point than I am coming across (the internet seems to polarize conversation), but let me say this anyway: I hope that the musical traditions in which I participate predate the 1970s.

Same here, and I think that's reflected in the amateur session scene, where the instruments are, for the most part, the ones played before the 1960's-70's. You might see the occasional portable keyboard, but it's likely to be locked into piano mode and not doing Clannad synth pads. If there is a drum it will probably be a bodhran and not a kit.

Performance bands will continue to experiment with new instruments and formats, which is great. Meanwhile the mainline tradition will stay alive in sessions and with solo players, while still continuing to evolve with tunes added from modern composers like Liz Carroll and Paddy Fahey.

Drummers don't get to contribute to that particular form of traditional music evolution, because they don't write tunes.

[foldedpath]

I used to be a member of another folk forum, until they started to flood it with posts like: should bodhrans be allowed at sessions… should guitars be allowed at sessions… should banjo players be allowed at sessions…

The finishing touch that made me realise how elitist, pretentious and far up their own orifices some of those posters were was in reply to the question on bodhrans: “If a bodhran turns up at my session I ask him to play the rhythm of a slip jig, and if he can’t, he’s asked to leave…”

God forbid I ever get THAT good on my own instruments that I can bar other musicians.

As a test before welcoming someone new to a session, that does sound elitist, although situations like that usually have some prior history behind them. The local sessions I'm familiar with are very welcoming to newcomers, even with odd instruments on an experimental basis. If it works, great. If not, you might be asked to sit out some tunes, or in rare cases encouraged to find a different session (that only happened twice that I know of, last time with a totally clueless banjo bass player).

There is another aspect of discussions like this, involving the dynamics of the hosting venue when it's a pub or restaurant session. That's different from a parking lot Bluegrass jam or an OldTime jam at a grange hall or church. There is a sort of quid pro quo between the session group and the pub owner. The session gets an area blocked out to play, and they sometimes get free drinks and food. The session group plays for themselves, not strictly a performance, but it's still light entertainment for the other customers. That's why the pub owner offers the space. It means there is an incentive not to suck completely, so the session doesn't get thrown out of the joint.


A pub session might be very welcoming to newcomers, even if they can't quite hang with the session speeds and repertoire, as long as they sit out tunes they're not ready for. But a player who actively and continuously disrupts the group might be asked to just not play at all, so they don't jeopardize the viability of the session. It's hard enough these days to find good places for pub and restaurant sessions, between owners freaked out about ASCAP/BMI regs and the ever-present sports on large TV screens. That's why some sessions can seem a bit overprotective of their music, I think.

[mandocrucian]

In that respect, we could extend the progression above to:

Irish Rovers ------> Oklahoma/Seven Brides For Seven Brothers -----> Riverdance -----> Celtic Women -------> "Bog People"/"Paddy's Irish Pub Nightmares" (Celtic reality TV, what a concept!).
- - - - - -
At one time Sean O'Riada's Ceoltóirí Chualann, and The Chieftains (who had been involved in O'Riada's group) were "radical". Using concepts of arrangement and presentation from classical chamber ensembles, the idea was to present an ethnically Irish equivalent.

Wikipedia excerpt:
Between 1961 and 1969 Ó Riada was leader of a group called Ceoltóirí Chualann. Although they played in concert halls dressed in black suits with white shirts and black bow ties, they played traditional songs and tunes. An ordinary céilidh band or show-band would have musicians who competed with each other to grab the attention of the audience. Ceoltóirí Chualann played sparse lucid arrangements. Ó Riada sat in the middle at front playing a harpsichord and a bodhrán, a hand-held frame-drum. This was an instrument that had almost died out, being played only by small boys in street parades. Ceilí bands generally had jazz-band drum-kits. Ó Riada also wanted to use the clarsach or wire-strung harp in the band, but as these were as yet unavailable, he played the harpsichord instead – in his opinion the nearest sound to a clarsach.[3] The harpsichord he used on a regular basis was made by Cathal Gannon. Unknown to Ó Riada, Irish folk music was being played ensemble-style in London pubs, but for most people of Ireland this was the first time they heard these tunes played by a band. For some, the membership of Ceoltóirí Chualann overlapped with that of The Chieftains. They recorded the soundtrack of the film "Playboy of the Western World" (original play by John Millington Synge) in 1962. Their last public performance was in 1969, and issued as the album "Ó Riada Sa Gaiety".

At one time Irish (folk) music was strictly instrumental (1-3 or so instruments), or it was unaccompanied vocals. The two didn't mix until the 60's with the guitar/singer and those early groups like The Dubliners, The Johnstons, It wasn't until Sweeney's Men that you had an "bouzouki" in the music, brought in by Johnny Moynihan. Planxty was continuation of Sweeney's. With Planxty and Bothy Band came the fusion of the Chieftains ensemble model with the American/Brit singer/guitar type bands. Real "traditional"!

So the previous decade's "radical" becomes the new "traditional" if enough people like what they heard.

(Mick Moloney traced the developmental strains of modern Irish music in an early column he did for The Mandocrucian's Digest)

Niles H

BTW: If you didn't recognize the "Saying of the Laws" from a previous post, that's the animal-people creed from HG Wells' "The Island Of Doctor Moreau" (are we not men?) with a few smartypants word substitutions.