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Thread: Bass guitar in Celtic music

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    Default Bass guitar in Celtic music

    I think this is really good .....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc4x...6-001a113c813c
    David A. Gordon

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Ewww.... the drums.

    For me, and we're getting deep into personal taste issues here, it's more about the kit drums in that video, especially later in the track, than the bass.

    Bass has some history in recent performance-oriented music, but it's rare. I love what Trevor Hutchinson does with bass in the Lúnasa group. I love what Trevor does on Liz Carroll's last album -- "On the Offbeat." Anyone interested in how bass can work with Celtic music might want to study that album, it's brilliant. Here's a brief taste of the studio session with Trevor on bass:

    http://vimeo.com/78488890

    On the other hand, that guy that used to show up at the local Scottish/Irish session with a huge banjo bass and no experience other than Bluegrass and OldTime music... not so much.


    Edit to add: I just noticed from that Liz Carroll promo video that Chico Huff is also playing bass on the album, with looks like an acoustic guitar-type bass.
    Last edited by foldedpath; Jan-28-2015 at 6:57pm. Reason: more info

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    I dig it, Dagger. Great tune.

    All one has to do is take a real (or virtual MP3) visit to New Orleans to see how tradition and invention live harmoniously and creatively together on a daily basis.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Horslips had a bass player and a drummer playing trad, and that was back in the early 70's...


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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Sheehy View Post
    Horslips had a bass player and a drummer playing trad, and that was back in the early 70's...
    Yep, so did Fairport Convention in the late 60's. I still listen to "Liege and Lief" every once in a while. A classic album, although a nitpicker might not call it Celtic.

    From an older perspective now, and with a somewhat deeper (and still learning) perspective on trad than I had when I was listening to those groups back then, I just don't think kit drums are a good addition.

    The right bass player in the right project though (like I mentioned above), and without kit drums, is something else, and to my ears fits better. Just my $.02 opinion, and that's from someone who started out my musical performing life as a player of kit drums in rock bands.

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    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    I am of the same mind as foldedpath here, and I started out playing rock/blues/funk drum kit myself.

    While I think bass can be tastefully used in the music (and my old band had a good friend and outstanding musician on Guild acoustic guitar bass with pickup), I do agree about kit drums. I don't think they add anything. Unless you are going to go all-out rock/jazz/Celtic fusion, leave 'em out. Here's Tony MacMahon on an unknown (because not revealed in the video) performance that really resonates with me:

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    I'm with Dagger on this. Sounded real good.

    And what exactly was the problem with the drums? Sounded real tasteful and appropriate to me.

    Besides Fairport Convention, there was Steeleye Span, Horslips, The Woods Band (Terry & Gay Woods), Contraband, Trees, 5-Hand Reel (w/Dick Gaughan), Alan Stivell, Pentangle, Mr. Fox, Albion Country Band, Moving Hearts, Dandoshaft, Hedgehog Pie, Wolfstone and many others out of England, Ireland, Scotland and Brittany that included both bass and drums. I've still got shelves full of LPs of all this stuff, bought more or less when the stuff came out...... and, Nobody was even calling any of this stuff "Celtic" until Alan Stivell came along and started using the term as a descriptive encompassing Ireland/Wales/Scotland/Brittany (to which you can also add the northwest Spanish regions of Galicia and Asturia)

    As far as Padraig Rynne & Notify... it's his band, his original piece, and he's Irish, lives in Ireland, etc. etc., So I guess he's got a more informed perspective about what he wants to do and what fits his genre of music than backseat drivers from the US or Canada.

    But if you want to kibbitz about instrumentation, I'll ad my own little gem of pontification: The biggest mistake New Grass Revival ever made was not having a full-time drummer in the band!

    Niles H

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    There is quite a lot of bass in contemporary Celtic music in bands like Shooglenifty (who incidentally also have the always excellent James MacIntosh on drums).

    Padraig Rynne didn't come down with the last shower of rain either. He also has a trio with Donal Lunny and Breton flautist Sylvain Barou (and I think it goes without saying that if Lunny thinks he's good ....)
    http://www.padraigrynne.com/projects/index.html

    However, I'm not necessarily talking about the use of bass guitar in general. I like Eoin Walsh's approach in the Notify video. Not too busy. It seems to me to really shape the music nicely. I like the band's sound.
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    I liked the video. The drums and bass were well done. The concertina playing sounds great, IMO.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    All musicians keep a delicate balance with each other in that Padraig Rynne recording. The bass player is doing exactly what bass players are supposed to do: form a base nobody would notice consciously but miss it if it weren't there. Nobody's acting the maggot, not even the drummer - this is miles away from the old ceilidh band noise or even Moving Hearts extravaganza. Relaxed listening.
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    As far as Padraig Rynne & Notify... it's his band, his original piece, and he's Irish, lives in Ireland, etc. etc., So I guess he's got a more informed perspective about what he wants to do and what fits his genre of music than backseat drivers from the US or Canada.
    But...what about this? See, I actually agree with you: the music is defined and innovated in its place of origin. I was just expressing a personal aesthetic preference.
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    No agreement that it is very well done and sounds very smooth and professional. The concertina gives it a slightly different texture, but I can understand that some are turned off by the background style, which is firmly in the "smooth jazz", adult contemporary genre. With a saxophone or electric guitar as the lead sound, this would just work fine on commercial radio (which may found the concertina texture too adventurous). I am not won over by the bass and drums because it is such a standard easy listening formula.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Anderson View Post
    But...what about this? See, I actually agree with you: the music is defined and innovated in its place of origin. I was just expressing a personal aesthetic preference.
    OK I'm throwing my hat into the anti-drumming lobby
    When percussion crosses the line into drumming I find it obtrusive in inherently rhythmic music. I have no issues whatsoever with James Mackintosh's percussion in the transatlantic sessions - brushes lightly stroking a snare drum is OK but not sticks on a full kit. It has nothing to do with where you are from, I feel the same about bluegrass. It's just personal preference. Bodhran in an Irish session is a whole other debate and I'm not going there.
    Thought the bass was great though. Thanks for posting Dagger.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    I'm with Dagger on this. Sounded real good.

    And what exactly was the problem with the drums? Sounded real tasteful and appropriate to me.
    It just didn't sound like they added anything, and in fact were a detriment to what else was going on. It's an opinion, that's all.

    As far as Padraig Rynne & Notify... it's his band, his original piece, and he's Irish, lives in Ireland, etc. etc., So I guess he's got a more informed perspective about what he wants to do and what fits his genre of music than backseat drivers from the US or Canada.
    Backseat drivers? Hey, it's just an opinion. I'm sure this is the sound that Padraig Rynne is shooting for, and more power to him. I hope you're not going down that path of "One must be Irish to have a valid opinion on Celtic Music" or a whole bunch of us are going to have to drop out of the conversation.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Bass guitar is one thing - drums are another.

    I expect Kevin MacLeod will chip in sometime to say that the Scottish dance band in which he plays - The Occasionals - have a great drummer called Gus Miller who plays with sticks, mostly using snare drum, and that he is an essential member of the band.
    Don't forget Scotland has a huge tradition of pipe band drumming which is extremely skillful and very disciplined.

    I would go so far as to say that some of the most inventive musicians on the Scottish scene are drummers and percussionists. Check out Donald Hay, Martin O'Neill, Jim Sutherland or the recently domiciled Steve Forman. Indeed why not include Scottish classical players like Evelyn Glennie or Colin Currie? And (not Scottish) did anyone ever add more to a band than John Joe Kelly of the Anglo-Irish band Flook?

    Anyway, back to the subject. It doesn't really bother me what people think of Notify's music, where you come from or anything else. It's good to listen to a new band with what seems to me nice use of the bass guitar.
    David A. Gordon

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Well I went in expecting to hate it, electric bass and drums and all, and found I liked it.

    Both the drums and the bass were well done, tasteful.

    I guess its my expectation (prejudice, I'll admit) that electric instrument players, and drummers, are not going to be able to play tastefully.

    Further going with this line of thinking, is a tasteless drummer who is not listening any worse than a tasteless fiddler who is not listening?

    So, as music, as a performance, as a recording, I liked it.


    Whats the diff, then, for me? Well, I get a lot out of the impression that the musicians could just gather together, spontaneously, assuming they had a moment to kill, on a street corner, or a pub, or the back of a taxi, or a bench or bus stop café, and just play. I like that impression. That feeling. But lets face it, as soon as you add a microphone you have tossed all that out the window, so -


    So what does all that mean? I dunno. But I liked the clip.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagger Gordon View Post
    Bass guitar is one thing - drums are another.

    I expect Kevin MacLeod will chip in sometime to say that the Scottish dance band in which he plays - The Occasionals - have a great drummer called Gus Miller who plays with sticks, mostly using snare drum, and that he is an essential member of the band.
    Don't forget Scotland has a huge tradition of pipe band drumming which is extremely skillful and very disciplined.
    Yes, I'm aware of the pipe band drumming tradition. It's one facet of a Scottish trad workshop my S.O. is attending next week (although just the smallpipes & fiddles week, not the GHB & drums week). And yes, Cèilidh bands have drummers.

    I'm just more a fan of the drum-less sound for certain other angles on this music, including the small ensemble format. And to bring it back around to the OP, I do think a good bass player can work well in that format.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    It just didn't sound like they added anything, and in fact were a detriment to what else was going on. It's an opinion, that's all.
    Tasteful rhythm section playing doesn't call a lot of undo attention to itself. (You don't want to compete with a "lead bass solo" or a "drum solo".) And it may not be immediately apparent how much it "adds" until you do a A/B comparison of the same track with and without.

    Using some musicians who are from a different genre with no familiarity with (or feel for) the genre of music the tunes you are doing can be a train wreck, unless the players are real pros. And this can apply to celtic players trying to play along on western-swing or Nordic music too.

    When I did my mando CD 20 years ago, I had a couple of different takes of (my 5-part) "The Tyrant's Jig" with Richard Thompson playing electric guitar behind me (playing acoustic mandolin.) For the CD, I wanted to fatten it up - on one take I had Myron Bretholz overdub bodhran.

    On a different session (with Ralph Gordon on bass and a fine Puerto Rican latin/jazz drummer), I pulled out a second take of "Tyrant's Jig" and let them go as an experiment. And it was "Hell Yes!" After a couple of run throughs, it went onto tape - great - different feel...had an dark ECM jazz feel to it. The drummer did some kind of syncopated Latin-jazz 6/8 playing (he really was an excellent drummer who listened and played "the tune" rather than a rote groove). The gist was that both versions of the tune were so good that it was hard to choose between them. So I didn't (choose); I used the one with Myron as track 2, and used the 4-piece track as a reprise as the final track.

    So if you haven't played with a good drummer and/or bassist that understands and is comfortable with the genre (or is just a pro+), you really don't know what it adds or doesn't. You don't have the first-hand experience of bass/no-bass and drums/no-drums side-by-side experimentation to realize what it adds or doesn't.

    Niles H

    And (not Scottish) did anyone ever add more to a band than John Joe Kelly of the Anglo-Irish band Flook?
    Flook are great! They are one of my favorites. And, finally got a copy of their (first) Flatfish CD this Christmas as a gift.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post


    So if you haven't played with a good drummer and/or bassist that understands and is comfortable with the genre (or is just a pro+), you really don't know what it adds or doesn't. You don't have the first-hand experience of bass/no-bass and drums/no-drums side-by-side experimentation to realize what it adds or doesn't.

    Niles H



    Flook are great! They are one of my favorites. And, finally got a copy of their (first) Flatfish CD this Christmas as a gift.
    Your CD sounds very interesting and I would like to check it out.
    My opinion on drums with certain styles of music is an opinion on what I like to listen to, which is separate to the musical styles I play and musicians with whom I play. Most of the musical styles I listen to I never play as a musician. I am a big classical music fan, particularly choral works and the classical symphony. I never partake in any of this as a musician but it doesn't stop me having very strong opinions on what I like and what I don't. As Steven Fry once said, "I may not be a professional musician but I'm a professional listener".

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    So if you haven't played with a good drummer and/or bassist that understands and is comfortable with the genre (or is just a pro+), you really don't know what it adds or doesn't. You don't have the first-hand experience of bass/no-bass and drums/no-drums side-by-side experimentation to realize what it adds or doesn't.
    With respect, I reject the idea that one must try everything under the sun, to know what might work for one's personal musical aspirations.

    I wouldn't audition a kit drummer for the trad group I play in, because it just doesn't fit my personal idea of what works in this music. I don't care how good or tasteful they are. I like to hear the pulse in the melody line, with little to no "rhythm section" in the Western pop music sense. To me, that's Folk Rock, which is fine, but it's not what continues to draw me to this music.

    I wouldn't hire a tuba player either, on similar grounds. Should I audition a great tuba player anyway, just to see if I'm wrong about what I like to hear?


    Others might have different preferences and a different threshold for "outside" instruments in a music tradition, which is perfectly fine. We don't all have the same tastes in music.

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    I played a craft fair once, and it was me on mandolin, two guitars, and a hammered dulcimer. We sounded really good. Well a friend of a friend of one of the guitarists showed up with a conga drum and asked to sit in.

    Well I gritted my teeth as the guitarist said "sure".

    Turns out the guy could really really play. By that I mean he could listen, and could be tasteful, and knew how to contribute to the kind of stuff we were doing (fiddle tunes and folk songs) in a way that added without being obvious or showing off.

    After a few tunes I felt real good about it. He had such a good handle on not just the beat but the groove. I could lean in and he was steady as a rock. I ended up playing better myself, as a result of his holding up the rhythm end of things.


    The lesson is, I dunno, ya never know, I guess. I never would have hired him, and I never would have gone out of my way to find a percussionist, but as a result of that experience, I am open to it. Not too open mind you, but a little.
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    I should add that my guitar player and I do some very "outside" things in our duo, just so I don't sound like too much of a stick-in-the-mud.

    For some gigs, we'll play a straight trad tune like Morrison's or Cooley's, where I'll play the melody dead straight on mandolin for the first two times through the tune. On the third time, I'll start comping chords, and my guitar player will zone out into Blues/Jazz improv mode on that chord progression. He gets a little wild with it... this is how I keep him interested in playing this stuff. Then we'll fall back out into the straight trad version to end it. We often joke about hearing the Trad Police sirens in the distance. But we also play it straight 'trad for a lot of stuff too, especially for wedding gigs where we're supposed to be quiet and discrete background ambience.

    I just don't want to hear kit drums in this. I would love to have a great bass player join us, but for two reasons (splitting the take three ways, and finding a bass player who can do this), it's probably not in the cards.

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    Registered User Mike Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Bodhran ain't drum kit. I've played both, I play bodhran now, I know whereof I speak. Some "trad folk" people don't think bodhran should be in "Celtic" music at all - they are ignorant. It's been used everywhere in the music since Sean O Riada, and in the real wellsprings, the small towns and rural areas, since who-knows-when. If you go to Ireland you will meet thousands of bodhran players. Kids are taught it in school. But drum kit -no. That's for pros making records and wanting crossover success. John Joe Kelly does not play drum kit: he plays bodhran. He is Irish, and has made a huge contribution to developing technique and style on the bodhran.

    Scotland has both the pipe band drumming and the ceilidh band drum kit tradition. Those are traditions and they work in those contexts. Nobody is trying to "fuse" anything in those traditions - they have been there for ages, before any of us were born I should think.

    And no, again: nobody needs to be Irish to play Irish music, but I will insist to my dying breath that if you think you are innovating and defining the music from the USA or the Maldives or Patagonia, you are deluded and insulting the people whose music this is. Because baby - you ain't Irish. Mick Moloney is Irish, Seamus Egan is Irish no matter how long he's lived in the States. Call it Irish-influenced American music or anything you want, but when you begin fusing and mutating, don't dare call it Irish music.
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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Wasn't drums around in 20th century céilí dancing before Seán Ó Riada made it declasse to have drum set?

    “Fiddles and flutes I maintain are the backbone of the céilí band but you do need the accordion now – some kind of instrument you can hear, and the accordion is great for that. Not that I approve of too much accordion by any means but it puts a bit of body into it. We played for nearly ten years without a drummer including playing in big ballrooms and we seemed to get away with it but if your céilí band is playing for dancing you want rhythm and the drum keeps the time. I wouldn’t agree at all with Seán Ó Riada criticising drums in a céilí band”.

    http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coc...eili_band2.htm







    Those sure look "traditional" and sure look like drums!

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    Default Re: Bass guitar in Celtic music

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS View Post
    Wasn't drums around in 20th century céilí dancing before Seán Ó Riada made it declasse to have drum set?
    I don't think anyone is arguing that there isn't a history of kit drums in Céilí bands, or Highland bagpipe and drum marching bands.

    What's at issue here, I think, is whether that tradition ever made it into what we think of as the trad tradition for ensemble folk-revival bands that was established by seminal groups like Planxty and the Bothy Band (and yes, the Chieftains), which might have had bodhran but never a set of kit drums.

    And that led directly to the other established performance bands like Altan, Capercaillie, Lúnasa, Solas, Dervish, and the rest. All without kit drums, for a reason. The rhythm pulse is in the melody.

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