Tuning fork question... which one?

[Skip23]

I'm trying to teach/train myself to tune by ear, so I was thinking of getting a tuning fork - and reasoned that starting by getting the E strings in tune first I could work back from there, fretting and matching.

I just wanted to check - would a 659hz E fork be the same octave as my E string? Is there a reason people go for the 440hz A fork? I will only be using this for mandolin, so thought getting an E one that matches my string would be fine, but I've ended up confusing myself with google! Sometimes I think I'd be better to ride on instinct...

Any thoughts/experiences welcome, thank you!

[JeffD]

I would get an A 440, as that is what defines everything.

[Tom Wright]

Yes, that would be the correct octave, but better to use the A tuning fork. You then tune up to E and down to D and G, which reduces the error in tempering those fifths. Viola/mandola/cello players that start from A and go down 3 fifths have a harder time making everything agree.

Also, the A fork would be easier to hear and would ring longer.

[Skip23]

Thank you, that's just the sort of concise answer the rest of the internet failed to give me! Much as I'm loving noodling on instruments, I do want to get a better understanding of the theory that underpins my ham-fisted flailings.

Thanks!

[Tobin]

I have to agree that the A440 fork would be the best one to go with, as it puts your basis for comparison more in the middle of the mandolin's range so that errors don't get compounded as much.

But on that subject, you'll find that if you tune to perfect fifths with the fork as your only reference, you'll be "out of tune" on your other strings when you play with others who have used electronic tuners. Thanks to the compromise of equal temperament (12TET for most of us), we have to be slightly off on our intervals instead of being able to tune in perfect fifths. I often like to use my tuner for only one string and then tune the rest by ear, but it just sounds horrible when everyone else has tuned all their strings with a tuner.

[spufman]

I bought my A440 as an aspiring 15-year old bass player in 1978. It still works and I've never changed the battery. Alas, I mostly use a Snark.

[Skip23]

... you'll find that if you tune to perfect fifths with the fork as your only reference, you'll be "out of tune" on your other strings when you play with others who have used electronic tuners. Thanks to the compromise of equal temperament (12TET for most of us), we have to be slightly off on our intervals instead of being able to tune in perfect fifths. I often like to use my tuner for only one string and then tune the rest by ear, but it just sounds horrible when everyone else has tuned all their strings with a tuner.

So if I tuned the A strings to a fork, then tuned the others it will be out of tune compared to doing the same thing with an electronic tuner? Is that because I'd be less accurate than an electronic tuner, or is there a difference in how electronic tuners read 'in tune'?

So much to learn!

[sunburst]

I use a G fork. As I see it, it doesn't matter what note your tuning fork is, as long as it matches one string on the instrument, and since I use mine for banjo, guitar, mandolin, (and others), and each of those has a G-string, it works for all.
Actually, with a trained ear, we can use any fork to tune any note. Tympani players used... and purists probably still do... one tuning fork tune, tuning (by ear) to the proper interval to the fork to get the note they need.
Also, I'm not too concerned about what octave the tuning fork is tuned to. It is just as easy for me to tune to a note in a different octave from the one I want.

[sunburst]

So if I tuned the A strings to a fork, then tuned the others it will be out of tune compared to doing the same thing with an electronic tuner? Is that because I'd be less accurate than an electronic tuner, or is there a difference in how electronic tuners read 'in tune'?

So much to learn!

It is because of equal temperament. In equal temperament, the system we use almost universally in western music, 5ths are narrow and 4ths are wide because the 12 notes of the scale are equally spaced.
It is incorrect to tune the 5ths on a mandolin "just", as they will end up if we tune to the 5th harmonic, though violin players can get away with it (because they don't have frets). Instead, we need to tune to fretted notes (and we need nuts, frets, and bridges that are accurate enough to tune to fretted notes).
If this is new to you, my post probably seems pretty hard to understand. Google "equal temperament" and start reading. It will start to make sense after a while.

[Mandoplumb]

So if I tuned the A strings to a fork, then tuned the others it will be out of tune compared to doing the same thing with an electronic tuner? Is that because I'd be less accurate than an electronic tuner, or is there a difference in how electronic tuners read 'in tune'?

So much to learn!

The electronic tuner is "tempered" so your fifths wouldn't be perfect but in my opinion if your fifths were perfect nothing else would be. My dad had the best ear of anyone I know. If he tuned a guitar with a tuner he would flatten the B slightly to make it sound better when noted. When I hear a guitar with the B dead in tune with a tuner I want to take it away from its player and tune it. Is the tuner right or is what I have become accustom to hearing right?

[Tom Wright]

If the fifths are perfect then fingered octaves will be slightly too wide. Of course, musicians have known this for rather longer than the availability of electronic tuners. This is why I said you do better, by ear, if you start in the middle rather than with the E. The cumulative error is less.

You can achieve equal-tempered tuning by comparing the open-string fifths with fingered octaves and unisons, e.g. comparing the higher string at the fifth fret to the lower open string for the octave, and comparing the lower string at the 7th fret to the open upper string. In principle, the octaves and unisons can be perfect if the fifths are very slightly too narrow.

[Skip23]

Google "equal temperament" and start reading. It will start to make sense after a while.

Well, that was like being pushed into the pool! But if I've understood what I've (started) to read, then a violinist can adjust where their note is 'fretted' to make the note 'accurate', whereas we can't so we drift out?

I've ordered a book. Two books... I need to get my head around this!

[sunburst]

...a violinist can adjust where their note is 'fretted' to make the note 'accurate', whereas we can't so we drift out?

We tune for the best compromise. That's the basis of equal temperament; compromised tuning so we can play instruments with defined notes (pianos, because of separate strings for each note, guitars, mandolins etc. because of frets) as in tune (or out of tune) in one key as another. Electronic tuners give us the notes of the tempered scale (equal temperament) unless we use one of the fancy ones with "sweetened" tunings, and then they give us the notes that someone with the company who made the tuner decided sounded better for some instrument or situation. We can do that ourselves, to our own satisfaction.
Personally, if I'm where I can hear well, I tune by ear. If I use a clip-on tuner, I have to adjust the tuning afterward to play "in tune" to my ear. If I swap instrument with someone, we will invariably each adjust the tuning to suit ourselves.

[CES]

It's partly that your dad is correct/what you've gotten accustomed to hearing, and partly that the tuner is also correct. On many guitars, especially vintage ones, the lack of compensation in saddles meant that the B string would fret sharply, so many players tuned the B string a little flat to compensate. On guitars with compensated saddles, it shouldn't be a problem...

And, I agree with John's approach, though it can be easier to get everyone in a group "in tune" with electronic tuners, as we all hear/prefer things a little differently.

[Andy B]

Tune up to a tuner and you will be in with everybody else (so long as they too use the tuner). This is critical if you are recording. Equal tempered fifths actually sound closer to the fork tuned fifths than thirds do. A sweet sounding third will be way flat of the equal tempered note on the tuner.

[derekkoehl]

Yes, that would be the correct octave, but better to use the A tuning fork. You then tune up to E and down to D and G, which reduces the error in tempering those fifths. Viola/mandola/cello players that start from A and go down 3 fifths have a harder time making everything agree.

Also, the A fork would be easier to hear and would ring longer.

So for a mandola (CGDA), if starting with a tuning fork A440 and tuning down the fifths is not optimal, which tuning fork frequency is ideal?

[Tom Wright]

So for a mandola (CGDA), if starting with a tuning fork A440 and tuning down the fifths is not optimal, which tuning fork frequency is ideal?

A is common so we put up with it. Ideal would be D, I guess, especially for my CGDAE. I just work with the A pitch-pipe sound from my metronome, and make the octaves and unisons work.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Like John Hamlett,being a banjo player well before elec.tuners were around,i also use a "G" tuning fork -that's ''G below middle C on a piano''. I still use the tuning fork for banjo 'cos for peering up the banjo neck to read a tuner,i need binoculars. Using my Snark tuner for mandolin,the G,D & A strings are spot on 'open' & at the 12th fret. They're also in tune with themselves across the fingerboard.The E strings however,need to be tuned a couple of cents over to be in tune with the A's at the 7th fret. After that everything's fine & that's on all 3 mandolins,so at least the tiny error in pitch is consistent,
Ivan

[Tobin]

Using my Snark tuner for mandolin,the G,D & A strings are spot on 'open' & at the 12th fret. They're also in tune with themselves across the fingerboard.The E strings however,need to be tuned a couple of cents over to be in tune with the A's at the 7th fret.

Yup. My G, D, and A strings seem to do pretty well with the tuner. But I always have to tune my E strings so they're reading a tad sharp by the tuner - more like a perfect fifth than a fifth that's compromised for equal temperament. If I try to tune my E strings dead-nuts to the tuner, they sound flat as hell, and won't be in unison with the A string at the 7th fret (which I use a lot, sliding up from 5th to 7th fret on the A string with the open E string). There's a sweet spot I have to find with my E strings; if I overdo it, they'll sound too sharp when fretting the G (3rd fret) in a G chord.

It's just one of those little quirks we learn to deal with and work around on fretted instruments. It's maddening at times!

[DavidKOS]

I'll add a vote for an A440 tuning fork.

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Tobin - " If I try to tune my E strings dead-nuts to the tuner, they sound flat as hell...".They do indeed,but when you look at the tuner & realise by how small an amount they are out of tune,it's not very much is it.
Ref.:- http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...d/earsens.html Read the 'Pitch Resolution' section & it's not hard to see why we can detect strings out of tune with one another by very tiny degrees.,
Ivan