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Thread: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

  1. #1
    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Hi Guys/Gals,

    I've been reading many threads here on recording mandolin, but I remain a little confused on one thing: How I can get my microphones, and the pre-amps I'm wanting, to interface with my computer. Obviously, another piece of equipment fits into this puzzle somewhere, I just don't know what that needs to be.

    My objective here is to record mandolin only (for now) and share my recordings with an instructor online, as well as others. Here are links to the mics and pre-amp that I want at the moment:

    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M5MP

    http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProMPA2

    I'm going to be using a Mac Mini for editing and storing the music files that I can't figure out how to make yet.

    At some point in the future, I'll have to expand things a bit to add a mic for voice, but that is not a priority right now.

    I've already looked at "Tascam" portable recorders (not appealing to me since all my recording will be done here at home) and also some of the "Focusrite" stuff, but I'm not sure how those would interface, and interact, with the tubed preamp that is calling my name.

    Can anyone get me a little further down the road here with some advice and/or equipment recommendations? I can't go crazy with high end equipment, but I am willing to shell out about another $500 so.
    Last edited by Emmett Marshall; Feb-12-2015 at 12:39am. Reason: can't spell
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    OK.

    If you want to use that particular preamp, you also need an interface. It goes like this:

    Microphones > Preamp > Interface > Mac Mini (via USB)

    However.... the fact is the interfaces that you would need will already have good preamps built in, so you do not actually need an separate external preamp. You could certainly use the MPA (it would go into the line Level inputs of the interface), but it is very debatable indeed if you would gain any advantage from that. The built in preamps on the better interfaces are really very good these days.

    It is was me, I'd spend the money on the best interface and microphones I could afford + some acoustic treatment and decent monitors before I'd look at additional preamps. All of those would make a much more positive contribution to your final result.

    It is generally a good idea to avoid cheap 'tube' gear. Just because it has tubes does not make it better than solid state. Once you get into pro level stuff, then high quality tube preamps do offer a different 'flavor' - but it is pretty subtle, and even then, they are not 'better' than discreet solid state pres, just slightly different.
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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Thank you for taking the time to help almeriastrings. That was precisely what I needed to know in order to move forward. I was online trying to find some interface without built in pre-amps and didn't find a single one - though I bet there are some. I will just ditch the tube amp idea and follow your advice on looking for a good interface instead. Many thanks!
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Such things do exist, but almost exclusively at the "high end", for example. A few years ago there were some in the lower price ranges, but they did not prove popular and I believe they are all discontinued (or about to be). Bottom line is that it is just as easy for a manufacturer to include at least a couple of preamps as leave them out. The quality of those peamps (and the onboard A/D and D/A conversion) has improved hugely over the past several years. Early interfaces with preamps did have some deficiencies - but these days, there is some very professional, top class stuff out there.

    My own setup is based on an Apollo Twin Duo , though this is Thunderbolt only so needs a relatively recent Mac. This has an ADAT port into which I can run 8 other channels from an Audient ASP880. The built-in Apollo preamps are superb, however, and if you only needed two inputs are absolutely fine. Before I went 'Thunderbolt' I was using an Apogee Ensemble via Firewire - but I would not suggest a Firewire interface now, as support for that connection is going the way of the Dodo...

    The choice is really between Thunderbolt and USB on the Mac. The best USB interfaces are also excellent.

    In the 'low to moderate' price ranges the Focusrite Scarlett range are hard to beat. I recommend them highly. Higher up the ladder, look at RME and Apogee.
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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    I've got Thunderbolt on my Mac and currently am using with an SSD drive to play all my flac music. I notice a big price jump when I go from firewire to thunderbolt on the interfaces. I realize that thunderbolt is much, much faster than firewire, but I may have to compromise here to stay in budget. Focusrite is saying, "All Focusrite FireWire interfaces are fully compatible with Thunderbolt using a simple FireWire to Thunderbolt adapter. Focusrite fully supports the use of Thunderbolt with its FireWire interfaces." Wonder if that $20 adapter gives the full speed of thunderbolt? I'll have to find out....don't really see how it can, but what do I know?

    A preference of mine is that the interface be rack mountable also. I like to keep everything tight and tidy.

    I'm looking at this one now: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SaffPro40

    I just noticed also that the Mac Mini has both a Firewire 800 port as well as Thunderbolt, so this might just work out easily.
    Last edited by Emmett Marshall; Feb-12-2015 at 2:49am.
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    I'd go for USB 2.0 versions over the Firewire right now, as driver support for Firewire is likely to be less and less from now on in.

    If you want a 19" rack unit, the Scarlett 18i20 is very nice indeed (and there is a special offer on the plugins right now as well).

    Yes, Thunderbolt does carry a premium price-wise... the main benefit is the incredibly low latency that can be achieved, and the ability to daisy-chain hard drives with no performance hit. If you are using DSP based gear (like UAD Apollo) then in my opinion, it is worth it. For basic, non-DSP based interfaces, it may not be. Much depends on how many simultaneous tracks you need in and out - fact is you can quite a lot on USB anyway.

    No, the adapter does not increase the capability of a Firewire interface, it just allows you to use that port - if you have existing USB external drives on your USB buss however, it does allow you to bypass those for your audio - though as I said, I would not buy a new Firewire interface myself now, as I think their days are numbered...
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    Registered User steve V. johnson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Hey Emmett,

    <<Wonder if that $20 adapter gives the full speed of thunderbolt?

    Probably not, but it won't be the fault of the adaptor, but that the USB bus behind the adaptor can only go as fast as it knows
    how to go. USB 2.0 speeds will be fine for true data capture. Faster is better but you've discovered a basic tenet of computers
    in our world: The newest and fastest costs more. ;-) I like Firewire and before USB2 I found it to be far steadier than USB, but
    these days it's disappearing, so it's a poor investment compared to USB 2/3 and Thunderbolt connections.


    almeriastrings wrote: << I'd go for USB 2.0 versions over the Firewire right now, as driver support for Firewire is likely to be less and less from now on in. >>

    In the Apple world drivers aren't much of an issue, it's pretty rare that we have to deal with drivers as a separate bit of software installation.

    Firewire's days are indeed numbered, but if you plan to use your current hardware for five years or more it will be fine. The only issues come when selling the stuff off or trying to interface with much newer gear. Once a nice Mac recording system is stable
    and you're comfortable it can serve you for a very long time.

    You're in good shape. The preamps in most interfaces are indeed nicer than those inexpensive stand-alone ones with the 'marketing tube' in them.

    Have some fun recording...

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Just backing up Almeriastrings' recommendations here. If you're not going to go full Thunderbolt, I'd choose a USB 2.0 interface over a Firewire one. Even if Thunderbolt is backwards compatible with Firewire, it limits your options going forward, especially for selling the unit if you upgrade later on. That Scarlett 18i20 looks decent as a lower-cost rackmount USB 2.0 interface.

    A good USB 2.0 interface works very well. As a Windows user, that's what I'm using as a recording format with a RME UFX interface.

    Also, a side note here about tube mic preamps. If you come from the world of electric guitar (like I did), the idea of tube gear is very attractive as a general concept. However, there is a difference between tube gear that muddies a recording, and tube gear with a subtle enhancement that can handle being stacked in multiple tracks without clouding the mix. That latter category can be very expensive, costing upwards of $2k for a good 2-channel tube preamp from the likes of Pendulum, Thermionic Culture, etc.

    I've always wanted a tube preamp in that category, but it was always a back-burner thing, with other upgrades like mics or monitors more immediately important. What I finally realized is that I wanted tube sound as an option, but the best place for me was inside the microphone head amp.... right at the beginning of the recording process... not the downstream mic preamp. So I have a few nice tube condenser mics (two small diapragm, one large diaphragm), and they all run into a very clean preamp that allows those different flavors to be heard. A small collection of tube mics in front of a clean preamp gives me more tube sound options than if I had a single high-end tube preamp with a bunch of different non-tube mics in front of it. Your mileage may vary, that's just been my personal learning process over the years.

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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Hi Fellas,

    Just got off an 18 hour shift, but I had to come over here and see how much "free advice" I had gotten.
    I'm now more fully grasping why Firewire is not a good option. Foldedpath, that is some really interesting info about the results you got from tubed mics vs. tubed amps. I use a "schiit Valhalla" tubed amp with Sennheiser headphones, but frankly, I really can't tell much difference at all between that combo and my solid state "Schiit Asgard" amp with Denon 5000s - except the differences that are inherent to each headphone. I wouldn't even know I was using a tubed amp with the Senns if nobody told me. A bit disappointing as I was hoping for some warm, syrupy, logs on the fire, output.

    Thank you Steve. I was thinking, more or less, the same thing about those adapters. You guys have already stopped me from making 2 less than ideal decisions. I think I better slow down a bit and start over. I guess my choice in microphones isn't so bad because nobody has mentioned them. I would really like to keep this whole audio path under a $1000.00, but it looks like I might run over a bit. - stands, cables, blah blah.

    almeriastrings: That Scarlett is nice! I could have 2 mics for the mando, and one for voice. Looks like Amazon has got it for $499. Checking to see of that includes plug-ins. I might pull the trigger on it tonight.
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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Quote Originally Posted by emmettw View Post
    almeriastrings: That Scarlett is nice! I could have 2 mics for the mando, and one for voice. Looks like Amazon has got it for $499. Checking to see of that includes plug-ins. I might pull the trigger on it tonight.
    You'll get the plugins as you download them direct from Focusrite once you register the unit.

    See: http://global.focusrite.com/usb-audi...scarlett-18i20

    Incidentally, one good thing about using stuff from established, reputable pro-audio companies is that you can talk to them if necessary.... they tend to know their stuff and be very helpful. Universal Audio, Focusrite, DPA, Neumann, Audient, etc., are all very nice to deal with.

    I completely agree with Foldedpath on tube gear. Cheap tube preamps tend to go overboard on trying to create a 'tube effect'. This usually means adding mud, noise and distortion. They make sure you can hear it.... by contrast, if you are using serious tube-based gear, your initial reaction might be "so what?" - because it is incredibly subtle. I've got some UA 6176 and LA-610 Mk. II front ends, and they are not at all muddy, and are very transparent and quiet - the exact opposite of the 'tube hype' seen in low end gear. The low voltage starved-plate "tube preamps" (look for the wall-wart!) are particularly notorious in this regard.
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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Quote Originally Posted by almeriastrings View Post
    Incidentally, one good thing about using stuff from established, reputable pro-audio companies is that you can talk to them if necessary.... they tend to know their stuff and be very helpful.
    I'm finding that to be quite true! I love it when I call such a company with questions and discover that they are not only knowledgeable of the product, but very proud of what they made. I recently had such an experience with "Benchmark" after purchasing a DAC from them.

    I'm wondering if this might be a good time for to get some sort of book that might help me gain some basic knowledge about recording at home? Can you recommend any books that might help a beginner gain some solid knowledge and avoid pitfalls?

    Thanks again!
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Books:

    Highly recommend The Producer's Manual by Paul White.

    A very comprehensive, well-written and practical guide. Full of useful stuff.

    Another excellent one from the same author is The Studio SOS Book.

    Particularly good on getting sound treatment right in project studios. Again, very practical and all based on years of experience. It's a good read.

    The 'Classic' in this area is probably Modern Recording Techniques.

    All three of these are great books.
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    somnamandolist Killian King's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    I would say you're definitely shopping at the right place. I've purchased most of my recording equipment from Sweetwater and have never been disappointed.

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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Thank you for the book recommendations! I think it's high time I start recording my mandolin so people can learn from me how "not" to play, and I can frustrate Mike Marshall to no end by participating as much as possible in his online training course. Seriously though, I'm thinking the better the recording, the more quickly and easily he can identify areas for me to work on. The mics have been shipped out, and the interface will be ordered very soon. I'm getting really fired up about learning more about recording acoustic music. Thanks so much fellas. The knowledge, experience, and artistry on these forums just blows me away sometimes.
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    emmettw wrote above:
    [[ Focusrite is saying, "All Focusrite FireWire interfaces are fully compatible with Thunderbolt using a simple FireWire to Thunderbolt adapter. Focusrite fully supports the use of Thunderbolt with its FireWire interfaces." Wonder if that $20 adapter gives the full speed of thunderbolt? I'll have to find out....don't really see how it can, but what do I know? ]]

    I may go against the grain of some here, but I still like firewire for audio recording. The REALLY big plus to this is that virtually all firewire interfaces are "CORE Audio compliant" -- which means they don't need any software drivers with the Mac OS (CORE drivers are built into the OS). That means, no driver conflicts and not having to worry about driver updates.

    Although, I believe Apple now has "CORE audio USB", as well. That is to say, if a USB audio interface is "CORE audio compliant", it may work without software driver installation, as well. Important to remember: not all USB interfaces meet this standard.

    Also important to think about is what software you'll be using. Of course, the Mac comes with GarageBand, and it's good to start with.

    My preference is Cubase, which has considerable power but it's not a bear to learn. Some interfaces come bundled with it. Steinberg (publisher of Cubase) also has some very nice interfaces which have built-in support with Cubase -- the result is less fiddling around trying to get hooked up and set up.

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    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Absolutely nothing wrong with Firewire... if you have an existing interface and a PC/Mac with the required port, carry on using it. I still have a Firewire equipped console (Allen & Heath R16), and it works as well as ever.

    However, I would not invest in new Firewire gear. It's medium/longer term future is far from assured. It is not just drivers (of more relevance on PC's than Macs as noted), but some of the ancillary software support - such as the 'mix' or 'console' systems that provide for low latency monitoring. Already, Firewire support is becoming less in this area. The new Console 2.0 for UAD is Thunderbolt only..... and new features such as UAD Extended are only going to be available on Thunderbolt too. That trend will continue.
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    Shredded Cheese Authority Emmett Marshall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Just wanted to thank you again for giving me a starting point. I got the rode mics, a focusrite 18i20, and a pair of JBL monitors. For the DAW, I'm starting out with "Reaper" since it's inexpensive and I got a 30 lesson workbook on how to understand and use it. I did notice that my mac is talking to the focusrite without drivers - to the extent that it sees it in the audio output path.

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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Reaper is excellent. I started using it a few years ago when GarageBand got dumbed down beyond recognition. There's a learning curve to everything, but once you've gotten comfortable with Reaper you probably won't want any other DAW.

    I did my first recording in Cubase, on a power mac G3, with a 2 gb hard drive and SCSI ports. Firewire has gone the way of SCSI, and so will Thunderbolt, eventually.

    Looks like you got a good interface there.

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    somnamandolist Killian King's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Quote Originally Posted by foldedpath View Post
    A good USB 2.0 interface works very well. As a Windows user, that's what I'm using as a recording format with a RME UFX interface.
    I just purchased an rme ufx myself. Any recommendations for mics for recording mandolin and acoustic guitars?
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    I want that interface!

    For mics, at the lower end, try the Audio Technica Pro 37 or the Oktava MK/MC-012 (sounds especially great with the omni capsule). The OktavaMod mics make the Oktava 012s even better. At the higher end, the Neuman KM184 is my choice right now. Dead quiet and very articulate. Mic position/room sound makes a lot of difference whatever mic you use.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Killian King View Post
    I just purchased an rme ufx myself. Any recommendations for mics for recording mandolin and acoustic guitars?
    That's a really open-ended question. How much money have you got?

    All I can tell you is what I'm using, which is based on slowly building up a mic collection over 20 years on a non-pro, self-recording musician budget, and figuring out what works. Also, it's complicated by a few nice mic preamps I've picked up over the years, that I feed the UFX on line inputs. For what it's worth, here's what I'm using, and it hasn't changed in the last year or two:

    Mandolin -- Depending on the application, either two Mojave Audio MA-100 tube small condenser mics, or one MA-100 plus a Royer R121 ribbon mic. Vertically spaced stereo pair array into an AEA TRP preamp, into the line inputs of the UFX interface. This could also work directly into the UFX, but the AEA is just that little bit cleaner and better adapted to tube mics and ribbon mics (no phantom power circuit).

    Guitar -- Two Neumann KM-184 small diaphragm condenser mics spaced in wide array, into a Great River MP-2NV preamp, into line inputs on the UFX. Again, I could run these straight into the UFX, but the MP-2NV adds some weight to the sound with that big fat transformer on the back end.

    Using high-end preamps like this before the UFX isn't essential. It's all about trying to nail that last 5%, which may not matter for many applications.

    For most things I'll also have a room mic at some distance to get the overall acoustics. My recording space isn't ideal, but it has 12 foot ceilings so it doesn't suck, and a room mic is a nice addition to the mix. That's a stereo large diaphragm AKG C426b into the front inputs of the UFX for the room. The stereo C426b is a killer mic... no longer made... might be the last one I ever sell.

    For vocals, which I don't do very often but sometimes... I use a Peluso 2247Le large diaphragm tube condenser mic, also into that AEA preamp. I record some classical violin/fiddle too, and that's always some combination of small condensers and ribbon mics and room mic, always in stereo. For piano I use the C426b stereo large condenser mic.

    That's a lot of gear, but I've been doing this for a while, and right now I like the UFX as the middle piece of gear that pulls it all together. For basic tracking without overdubs (which is mostly what I do, all players in one room), I control the UFX with the iPad app, using the iPad-to-Usb camera kit, so I have a larger display to work with. Recordings go straight to a USB stick. If I'm doing overdubs, I connect a laptop with DAW software to the UFX. But I like running it in standalone mode for direct USB stick recording with the iPad for most things. Much simpler and error-proof when I'm busy trying to play and record at the same time. After tracking in the main room, I move the files upstairs to a mixing/mastering room with a desktop computer and big monitors.

    Hope this helps, and let me know if you need any other info!

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    somnamandolist Killian King's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Thanks for all of this information. Assuming I start recording more in the near future, I can see myself dropping some dough on a few good microphones.

    The new MAS (Microphone Acquisition Syndrome.

    edited to add that during my interweb microphone searching, I noticed that Neuman sells a shockmount that costs more than any one microphone that I own.

    I am definitely going to experiment with recording in standalone mode on the UFX.
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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Killian King View Post
    edited to add that during my interweb microphone searching, I noticed that Neuman sells a shockmount that costs more than any one microphone that I own.
    I use the much less expensive Audio-Technica shockmounts on my SDC mics, I think it's the model AT8410a that sells for around $60 USD. Works fine with my KM184's, Mojave MA-100's, and Royer ribbon mics. It should work fine with anything else that follows the usual designs for small diaphragm condensers or Royer-style ribbon mics.

    There are places where I won't compromise, like capsule design and quality control for consistency so you know what you're getting. But a shockmount is a shockmount. It's not rocket science, and this AT one has been fine for me.


    Edit to add: And yes, definitely try standalone USB recording mode on the UFX. It's terrific for those times when you just want to lay down some tracks and edit later. Absolutely solid and foolproof for me, so far. Using an iPad to control the UFX is a nice addition, but it's not essential. Once you learn the front panel menu functions, it can all be controlled right there.

    Also, one final piece of advice is to use a fast (recent model) USB stick and not a USB hard drive for standalone recording. I don't know if anything has changed, but the last time I checked the RME forums, that was more reliable and supported more tracks at high resolution than a USB external drive.
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  27. #24

    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    if youre on mac and need only two channels the best interface is Apogee Duet, combine it with Neumann mic and its killer setup...

  28. #25
    Registered User almeriastrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mandolin Recording: Can't Figure This Out

    Quote Originally Posted by mandobajo View Post
    if youre on mac and need only two channels the best interface is Apogee Duet, combine it with Neumann mic and its killer setup...
    I think we have to be careful with absolute assertions as to "the best".

    It is a nice sounding unit, but the overall connectivity (no ADAT, for example) is very limited and the breakout box/cables are a real weak point. Apogee preamps and conversion have always been good, however (I used to run an Ensemble, original firewire version before switching to the Thunderbolt UAD platform). The new Ensemble looks very nice.

    Conversion technology has come a very long way in the past few years, and frankly, just about any of the medium-higher end interfaces are going to be so good in that area that it is hair-splitting territory rather that chasms between them.

    If you are looking for 2 (mic input) units (for Mac) the Audient ID22 is certainly up there with the UAD Apollo, Apogee, RME and the rest in performance terms. Often gets overlooked, but it is a very nice piece of gear indeed.
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