Question on condenser mics for bluegrass band

[almeriastrings]

I have not built either of those, or used them - or even heard them, so cannot comment on detailed comparisons, but spec-wise they are pretty good. I think the only way to know for certain would be to try them.... if you do, let us know how you get on!

[rb3wreath]

I have not built either of those, or used them - or even heard them, so cannot comment on detailed comparisons, but spec-wise they are pretty good. I think the only way to know for certain would be to try them.... if you do, let us know how you get on!

I ordered a A460 today. They said they do sell match pairs of the A218p but didn't have any in stock. I figure since I want two of them I may as well get them as a matched pair to have them be a little more versatile. Once I get them, I'll give them a go in recording and live situations and let you know how they turn out.

[mandobassman]

Someday I hope to own an AKG C 414. That is a really nice sounding mic for live performance with one mic.

I used a C 414 for live use one time. Fought feedback problems with it the entire show. I saw Ricky Skaggs at a festival several years ago. He was using two C414's for his show. Feedback throughout the whole show. I would never use that for live use again.

[almeriastrings]

AKG C414's are superb mics. They are quite ill suited to live use, though. They were designed as a studio mic, and in that role, can be fantastic on some sources. The very things that make them one of the all-time great studio mics, however, do not help in a live situation.... very sensitive... the muti-pattern options create non-linearity in the pickup pattern (a major source of feedback), the little switches are easily damaged, the head basket is very open and the capsule is very exposed with shock mounting far below that of a microphone designed for live applications.

[Attoyac]

You seem to be very knowledgable pertaining to acquiring a good sound. I have read so many of these forums trying to gain info on current info as to the best miking or pickup situations. I play in a duo. I play guitar and mandolin. What's your take on mandolin amplifiers(which brands do you prefer, AER, Schertler, Fishman, etc.) I've read that using piezo's with an acoustic amp is the way to go. But using small condensor mics gives a more natural accurate sound. I've read good things about the Schertler DYN's and DPA's. We are experienced musicians, but not at performing amplified. I don't know that we will be playing anywhere other than small venues, but I'd like to have top of the line equipment, and only have to make a few "right," purchases, because of limited funds. I've read about the different situations of using a small amp, using a small amp miked thru the house PA, and having our own small PA system with powered speakers and a preamp or small mixer. By the way, I've got an Ellis F5 as well, and I wonder about what it will do to the finish to put on a Schertler with the putty mount.
You, Almeriastrings, or any Forum reader can email me at texaztea@gmail.com
Please,...if you have the time,..shed some light on my situation. Thanks.

[bluegrassguru]

You seem to be very knowledgable pertaining to acquiring a good sound. I have read so many of these forums trying to gain info on current info as to the best miking or pickup situations. I play in a duo. I play guitar and mandolin. What's your take on mandolin amplifiers(which brands do you prefer, AER, Schertler, Fishman, etc.) I've read that using piezo's with an acoustic amp is the way to go. But using small condensor mics gives a more natural accurate sound. I've read good things about the Schertler DYN's and DPA's. We are experienced musicians, but not at performing amplified. I don't know that we will be playing anywhere other than small venues, but I'd like to have top of the line equipment, and only have to make a few "right," purchases, because of limited funds. I've read about the different situations of using a small amp, using a small amp miked thru the house PA, and having our own small PA system with powered speakers and a preamp or small mixer. By the way, I've got an Ellis F5 as well, and I wonder about what it will do to the finish to put on a Schertler with the putty mount.
You, Almeriastrings, or any Forum reader can email me at texaztea@gmail.com
Please,...if you have the time,..shed some light on my situation. Thanks.

I installed a K&K Mandolin Twin Internal into my Flatiron A-5 Artist and really like it: http://kksound.com/products/mandolintwin.php

I get very natural sound when using it with the K&K Pure XLR Preamp: http://kksound.com/products/purexlrpreamp.php

However, it still sounds really good without the preamp. I've put K&K in mine (HD-28) and others' acoustic guitars and they give really good acoustic sound.

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Mic's give a better sound but have a volume threshold, pickups give more volume but don't sound as good. Pickups are getting better though.

A great, easy, strong sounding pickup option is to use the K&K twin pickups for guitar and mandolin. I use them, they are very good and cost effective. Go from the instrument into a volume pedal or boost pedal (the boss 500 FV is a great vol pedal because you can set the low level, meaning the pedal closed, to a minimum rhythm level instead of closed meaning off) then directly into a quality acoustic amp. You don't need a preamp if you use one of the brands you mentioned because they have good built in preamps already. Fishman, Schetrler and AER are my favorite. They will all get the job done and all sound great. AER is my favorite, I own a Fishman Loudbox and a Schertler David and they are all awesome and do a great job. The positive on using an amp is you control what you hear on stage which really helps your playing. I pull almost all of the mids and highs out and about 3/4 of the bass out and you get a much more realistic acoustic tone. This set up works great. I have a schertler and don't use it because the out is xlr and isn't as easy to use with a volume pedal or boost which is a must to me. And I like the tone of the K&K and a good amp.

A DPA clip on mic is a great option-I have one. Tone is wonderful, but there are issues. It clips on the instrument and there isn't an easy way to boost volume for solos unless you have a dedicated sound man. With a normal mic you can walk closer to get louder and farther to get quieter but not with a clip on. If I used a sound man who knew when to boost solos, I would use this more. Also, because it is a mic, it is susceptible to feedback.

My mandolin sounds pretty darn good plugged in but I've never loved plugged in acoustic guitar tone for rhythm. Its ok for solos but bothers me for rhythm. What my guitarist does is run a DPA at a static level for rhythm and runs a K&K through an amp for leads. His volume pedal is normal so pickup volume off at fully closed position. So he just steps on the pedal for solos which kicks on the pickup but turns it off the rest of the time and you get that nice mic'd guitar sound the rest of the time for rhythm.

Hope this helps.

[mandroid]

FWIW , not a group but an individual used both a Mic on a stand (Rode NT3)
+ a Top mount soundboard pickup . Schertler Dyn >> thru a DI to the house board with a 1/4" line
off the DI for their Monitor , a Small Roland battery powered thing..
Player: Evan Marshall, mandolin: an F5 Gilchrist


got the impression (reading here) Sam B Did something like it ..
a Piezo to the monitor

But played into a Mic for the House.. mix and setup probably varied as to the
venue requirements and the sound board engineer for the shows

[foldedpath]

A DPA clip on mic is a great option-I have one. Tone is wonderful, but there are issues. It clips on the instrument and there isn't an easy way to boost volume for solos unless you have a dedicated sound man. With a normal mic you can walk closer to get louder and farther to get quieter but not with a clip on. If I used a sound man who knew when to boost solos, I would use this more. Also, because it is a mic, it is susceptible to feedback.

For the record, there are ways to integrate a boost pedal into a clip-on mic rig like that. I use several DPA 4099's on mandolin, octave mandolin, guest fiddlers, and on my gigging partner's guitar. I don't need a boost function since we play mainly "Celtic" music without solos, but I do like having an inline foot pedal tuner available. Which you lose if you run the DPA 4099 straight to a PA mixer.

Here are the two ways I've done it:

1) The first method uses the insert jacks on the PA mixer, if you're running your own mixer close enough for this to work. Get a long enough stereo patch cable with a TRS 1/4" plug on on end, and a Y-split into two mono 1/4" plugs on the other end. Plug the TRS end into the channel insert jack where the clip-on mic is plugged in. Run the other two plugs into the input and output of your floor pedal. This works because the DPA 4099 gets its phantom power and gain ahead of the channel insert jack.

You do need a mixer with a channel insert jack like the Soundcraft MFXi8 that I've used for this. Not all compact mixers have them, and they're usually not available on the new breed of compact digital mixers. You might be able to cobble it together with routing AUX ins and outs, but there might be too much added latency on a digital mixer for this to work.

2) The second method is simpler, but more expensive -- just use a local mic preamp near the playing position, where it can feed a floor pedal. I've used a TC G-Natural pedal for this in the past. When I use this setup now, it's with a battery-powered Sound Devices MP-1 preamp. Runs on AA batteries, has great sound quality, and it's built like a tank. Only drawback is the price, since it's basically a pro video production gadget. The 1/4" output from the MP-1 goes straight to a StroboStomp tuner pedal, and then out from there to the PA mixer.

You could use a boost pedal inline after the tuner pedal, or a reverb/delay, or anything else, and still have the sound quality of a clip-on mic. I've also used this little mic preamp with a stand-mounted external condenser microphone, when I want the option of a tuner/mute pedal along with the mic.

[almeriastrings]

It is all trade-offs and compromises....

A whole bunch of factors come into play: sound quality, volume before feedback, convenience, cost, complexity, setup/breakdown time, type of music you're playing, ability to control dynamics and more.

So there is no simple or universal answer that's right for everyone.

For myself, I prefer a stand mounted microphone. I play standing up, and I like the ability to be able to fine tune both tone and levels "on the fly". I don't use floor monitors... I use either compact line arrays that allow me to hear the FOH sound very clearly but not at feedback-generating levels, or IEM's. I like the 'organic' and 'natural' sound-field of the line-array's best, IEM's take a bit of getting used to, but in some situations can be good. I prefer just about anything over floor mounted monitors...it is not just the feedback issue, but the general 'mush' and out-of-phase wash that spills over everything, and gets picked up by the mics.

I also like the absolute minimum of "stuff" to get setup, so the fewer cables and boxes the better.

I do have a transducer (AKG C411) in my Ellis, but I rarely use it. I normally only use it if I have to "plug and play" somewhere on an unfamiliar system with someone else on the desk. It makes it fast, easy and somewhat more fool-proof. Sound is pretty decent for a transducer (I run that into a Headway EDB-2 and do my own "blend" with a clip on ATM-350 - just one XLR out to the desk). No alterations to the mandolin, the transducer is internal and signal exits via a Vintage Jack. Stick something on my lovely Ellis? No way!



If it is my sound system, and I can get everything set the way I like it, I keep it very simple indeed. One mandolin/guitar mic on a stand. I don't even use the most expensive mics for this, just ones that I know perform very well and sound good. These are mainly chosen because I know their polar patterns very well.... Shure SM-94 or Rode M2 condenser, or a Blue Encore 100i dynamic (incidentally, Sweetwater has a crazy sale on these right now - really very fine dynamic instrument mics). All of these are just nice sounding micophones, are reliable and hard wearing, and have really good off-axis rejection in the 120 degree zone.

I don't use any acoustic amps myself, but for performance and value, have always found the various Fishman Loudbox's very good. I do use Fishman SA220's in some situations and like those a lot too.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Has anybody ever tried a Neumann 184? I believe it's awesome for live and studio work. As Grisman and Rice used such mics in the '70s and '80s, I figure it can't be all too bad. Or is that considered old fashioned these days?

[almeriastrings]

I believe Tony Rice used the following mics in the studio:

Pair Neumann KM-86: This is a rare, early 60's mic - dual KM84 capsules back to back, to produce a SD variable pattern mic. In cardioid mode it is the same as a single KM-84.

Pair AKG C-451: Classic SD cardiod condenser.

Neuman KM-84: Classic SD condenser. Updated version is KM-184, with a different freq. response.

Sony C48: Multi-pattern LD condenser. Unique feature (for a LD multi-pattern mic) is it can also run from a 9v battery.

Neumann U-87: Classic multi-pattern LD condenser.

I have used all of these at various times over the years (in the studio) and they are nice enough mics... I would not say say any of them are "magical" or anything, just very good microphones. I would not use any of them in a live situation, myself. Fine for recording.

Tony Rice is also on record as saying, with regard to live/festival performance "I have to use whatever we can find", though I understand he has taken a KM-84 along from time to time and has had feedback issues....oh, and he has also used an AKG C-452 live (which is a variant of the C-451, with slightly different voltage specs, but otherwise very similar)....

Here he is struggling with a bit of feedback.. and a horrible, indistinct 'boomy' sound from the proximity of the mic to the soundhole...



I can't quite make that mic out... SM-81 or KSM?

My opinion. The requirements of a studio mic are very different from that of a live mic, and the two often do not coincide. In the studio, you are often fine with quite wide pickup patterns, on stage, this can be seriously problematic. Also, live mics simply need to be tougher: the capsules should be shock mounted and they need to be able to handle variable humidity, wind noise and other environmental assaults. Studio mics are not normally designed for that. Look at this. One of my KM-184's:



The capsule is very, very exposed. There is no shock mounting, so it transmits a lot of mechanical noise from the floor or from cables, or from the mic stand.

That is why Neumann offer a special 'rugged' and better isolated version... the KMS-104 and KMS-105 (with a tighter pickup pattern).....

These are nice mics, and suit some singers well. They are also fine on instruments (though my experience of them is that they still pick up a bit too much 'spill'). I like the new Shure KSM-9HS better. I borrowed one recently and used it for a few weeks, comparing it to my trusty old SM94, Rode M2's, and Audix VX-5's. End of the day, I was just as happy to continue using those, as although it is a nice mic, I honestly did not think anything really sounded "better" and feedback rejection was no better or worse....

Just to reinforce the point that "expensive is not always better" , I also tried a DPA d:Facto II in our usual venue, which is full of hard walls and reflective surfaces. Nice mic... should be at that price! However, I ended up using (and preferring) the Rode M2's! For some reason these are crazy cheap in Europe.... you can get them for under 100 Euros.....

[dang]

...Blue Encore 100i dynamic (incidentally, Sweetwater has a crazy sale on these right now - really very fine dynamic instrument mics). All of these are just nice sounding micophones, are reliable and hard wearing, and have really good off-axis rejection in the 120 degree zone.

Not to hijack the thread but that looks like an amazing deal, I see that the sale is on through August 31st...!
Might have to gift myself some for my Bday

Almeria, would you also recommend the Blue Encore 200 as highly? I have a vocalist who needs a couple of good mics.
Thx!
Dan

[almeriastrings]

I think they are excellent microphones. Very well made with high grade components. Not just hacked together with 'off the shelf' cheap parts.... original new designs. As with all mics, it is very much down to what individual vocalists prefer and precisely what situations (rooms, monitors, etc.) they end up being subjected to. We have several of them, and they are used (as necessary) in conjunction with AKG D5's where dynamic mics are called for. They live with the AKG's in our dynamic mic case...



Brief comments:

Blue 100i: Instrument mic... tighter pickup pattern, very nice sounding. Good off-axis rejection.
Blue 100: Vocal mic (chrome top in the photo). Very full and smooth, with a lot of detail. Vocalists tend to like this a lot.
Blue 200: Vocal mic, requires +48v phantom power, as it has a FET head amplifier. Hotter output than the others. Nice mic, very detailed, a bit more prone to feedback than the standard 100. Looks super cool too.
AKG D5: These are incredibly good in really difficult situations. Very, very feedback resistant with good detail. Work equally well on instruments as well as vocals. Vocalists do need to learn to stay right on top of them, however. Really tight pattern.

As always,it comes down to choosing the right tool for the job, and finding something that suits a particular vocalist, in this case.

[almeriastrings]

Since this is about condenser mics...

Our matching live sound 'Condenser Case' contains:

Audix VX-5 (X2)
Shure SM94 (X1)
Rode M2 (X2)
Rode M3 (X2)
Audio Technica ATM350 (X1)
Audio Technica PRO 35 (X1)
Shure KSM44 (variable pattern LD mic)
Shure Beta 27 (side address hypercardiod condenser - excellent for isolating stuff)

That seems to pretty much cover most things, between them....

[msargent]

I've gotten excellent results with an Audio Technica ATM450:



They're small, durable, and have an incredible amount of side rejection (feedback resistance, etc.). The timbre of the mic is also quite complementary for the mandolin - a sufficient low-end with a bit of a midrange scoop and a slight brightness on top (not too piercing). I'm a recording engineer as one of my musical "day jobs" with a specialty in classical and orchestral recording. The ATM450s are generally in my bag for these gigs alongside much more expensive equipment (Neumann, Schoeps, etc.) and often win out for specialized situations. In a recent gig, I used 450s on bass flute (rather tricky to capture in an orchestral context) and harp. I frequently find uses for them on percussion - they have a very nice low end response for a small condenser.

Here's a photo from a recent mandolin gig where we used the ATM450 (underneath the hefty windshield, as the stage was about 10 feet off Lake Erie):