Strings dramatically going flat

[Loretta Callahan]

I had some serious E string drama last week. I broke two E strings when I put new strings on my Gibson Jr. It's the first time I (on my own) put strings on this particular mandolin. I've put new strings on my other 3 mandolins and had very few problems.

What prompted me to put new strings on it was that the G string went flat two steps quickly. The strings were very old, so I figured the strings had lost their mojo.

It took me two days to finally get the E to stay in E (after I broke 2). The E strings would drop to F# and sometimes D# until they finally held. Seemed weird.

Today, one of the E strings had dropped to A: 4 steps. I slowly brought it back up to E, but I'm not confident it will hold.

I have no desire to "fiddle" with my mandolin … it's not my style … my question here is: do I need to take her to a luthier? Could this be a mechanical tuner issue?

Thanks in advance.

[Stoker]

Might be a dumb question, but have you checked your tailpiece (if it is the traditional type)? This same thing was happening to me some years back. Thought I was going nuts. Turned out the tail piece was cracked at the bend - almost imperceptible at first, but it finally opened wide and the "de-tuning" got fairly dramatic. I didn't notice it at first because the cover covered the crack.

[sblock]

Something is giving way!! These changes are too large to be accounted for by normal, new string stretching. It could be that your tailpiece is breaking (see above). It could be that the string is slipping around the tuning post (How many wraps do you have? Do you use a 'luthiers knot,' or send a wrap over the coiled turns?) It could be that the string is slipping at the tailpiece end (by loop collapse?); this is possible but likely.

[mandroid]

If I break strings at the bridge its because i played it a bunch .. yours break in the TP or at the head?

[Timbofood]

Something is definitely rotten in Portland as far as your strings are concerned. Is it consistent across all the strings, not necessarily the same drop ub, all strings failing to hold? How's the neck? This sounds pretty serious to me.

[Loretta Callahan]

Thanks, all. Yes, I think it's luthier time. It is a traditional tailpiece, no doubt from 1923. And yes, as Stoker, Mandroid & others have asked … strings break at the tailpiece. No, Timbofood, the key loss isn't consistent across all strings … just the E's. Things just don't sound right to me (but maybe I'm oversensitive about the strings) …. yet I can tell something is rotten here in Puddletown for sure.

I have luthier's knots on all strings, sblock; save the (no knot) one crappy wind on an A ~ but it holds its tune. I'm just not experienced enough to tell if the neck is happy or not. Since I hate (seriously) covered tailpieces (and the tailpiece doesn't look cracked, but is quite worn where the strings touch) … I'll definitely get an open type tailpiece even if the original one is ok. I don't care about resale value. I just want to play it.

[Austin Bob]

I agree that something's fishy here. Since you stated that you really don't want to work on the instrument, I agree that you should try to find a competent luthier to have a look.

[fatt-dad]

I had a tailpiece, "chad" break off. All sorts of problems until it finally gave way.

I think you have received better advice already than anything I could add. . .

Hope it all works out soon though! You do have multiple spares though, eh?

f-d

[mandroid]

well the little thin E's are at the highest tension.. I had a fast detuning string ,
kept turning the knob and the loop came apart

windings done for loop making slipped .

As I see Guitar strings getting a dab of solder there , For the whammy Bar pulling ,
Why not Mandolin strings?

[Timbofood]

Loretta, are you using "all" the hooks, putting the "kink" in as the tailpiece was designed or, just going straight up from the hook? Just curious.
I have never had windings fail time and again. Actually, I am not sure I have ever had more than one winding fail in my life.

[Toycona]

Might be a dumb question, but have you checked your tailpiece

Allen tailpieces and others with the pitched pins pose a bit of a tuning problem until you learn how to coax the loop to the bottom of the pin while tuning.

[terzinator]

There are a finite number of things to check, I'd think... (All of which I've seen over the years.)

-- Loop end of string is unwinding at the tailpiece (bad batch of strings?)

-- Not enough turns of the string around the tuner post (I don't use the knot; I go one wrap over the hole, and the rest under... the unwound strings will have several wraps.)

-- Tuner gear slipping (two could go bad at the same time, I suppose)

-- Top of mandolin sinking with humidity changes (but would affect more than one pair.)

Odd that BOTH the E strings are doing this. (And that the E pair is the only pair.) Are they going out of tune "equally"? Or is one more dramatic than the other?

Do they eventually stay in tune, or do they continue to go flat again and again?

Can you note the position of the tuner post hole, and see if it changes?

If you happen to have gotten a bad batch of E strings (easy, cheapest answer), have you tried a new set, just to test?

Usually I'll have issues with the A pair being finicky, but that's a different can of worms.

Never seen a tailpiece actually fail, but like fatt-dad says, it's certainly possible.

[Loretta Callahan]

Thanks again for the suggestions. Thing is, I'm so swamped with work, it takes me a while to clear the deck for mandolin playing, much less equipment tweaking (which I don't like to do). I'll carve out a day this weekend to go deeper into this. If my head explodes, I'll just take her to a luthier, sit at his feet and do what he tells me to do.

[allenhopkins]

I'd guess that either the string loops or the tailpiece hooks are deforming. Strings "breaking at the tailpiece," if the loops are pulling apart (rather than the string breaking further toward the bridge), suggest that there may be sharp edges on the tailpiece hooks, or, again, that you got a bad batch of E strings.

Strings will generally break at the point of most stress. This often occurs where the string goes over the bridge saddle, through the nut slot, or around the tailpiece hook.

The "flattening" of the strings also suggests that the string loops are slipping, or that the tailpiece hooks are bending. You may just have a bad batch of E strings; happens.

[Pete Martin]

You should check how you are winding the string on the tuner. The E strings are under so much tension they will slip unless you "tie them off" somehow. That would be my first check if it was happening to me.

[sblock]

You should check how you are winding the string on the tuner. The E strings are under so much tension they will slip unless you "tie them off" somehow. That would be my first check if it was happening to me.

Pete, I think you are quite right to suggest checking the winding, and it is true that E strings tend to slip sometimes. But it's not because they are under any more tension than the other strings. See here:



From these numbers, you can see that in a set of D'Addario J-74s, the E string is under very nearly the same tension as the D string, and under significantly less tension than the G string. But the G & D strings are wound, and consequently tend to slip less at the tuning post. The E string is also the thinnest, and therefore "grips" the tuning post less well, due to less contact area for the same number of winds around the post. And yes, a luthier's knot or an overwinding can really help stop slippage.

[hank]

Since it's only one string causing the problem and reappears after trying a second string the problem almost has to be either at the tailpiece or tuning post attachment. Note that some mandolins are more flexible with the tension of one string effecting the adjacent strings tension more than others. If tension is lost a third time after more wraps on the post, etc. loosen the string enough to take it out of the tailpiece. Either tab could be cracking at the bend in the metal that may be visible with a magnifying glass. Use a light touch to gently flex the tabs if the crack isn't visible otherwise. If the crack is in the back tab you can still use the second one until your ready to change the tailpiece. Frank Fords articles on string changes mentions loop end technology of the day and owner made loops as the reason for the second tab to reduce the tension on the loop. I think the reason unwound strings are more problematic is the tiny surface area that actually contacts the tension points. This not only requires more attention at the tuning post to prevent slippage but also acts like a knife at the tailpiece.