Seven-course bass Neapolitan mandolin by Luigi Cardillo

[trebleclef528]

http://gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/Catalo...5/page003.html

Interesting Mandolin for Auction in Bath (United Kingdom) Lot Number 402
(sorry unable to attach photos.. see link above

"Seven-course bass Neapolitan mandolin by Luigi Cardillo, Naples, 1779, the body of thirty-six fluted maple ribs divided by ebony and bone purfling, the capping strip carved with strapwork, the table edging, sound hole surround, fingerboard and head facing inset with tortoiseshell inlaid with mother of pearl decoration and strapwork, the centre of the table with a large shaped tortoiseshell scratchplate inlaid with mother of pearl, the underside of the neck and head overlaid with tortoiseshell and mother of pearl bands, seven double courses of strings tuned from three rows of pegs
Labelled Luigi Cardillo fecit Anno 1779 Nella Rua Catalana Napoli
Overall length 36in, 91.5cm; string length 21⅞?in, 55.5cm
Estimate: 5000-7000"

[mrmando]

Really interesting. Wonder how this beast was supposed to be tuned.


Also a four-course mandora in this auction:

[mrmando]

A few contemporary mando-instruments in this auction as well, including an Audey Ratliff mandola:
http://gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/Catalo...5/page002.html

[Graham McDonald]

Really interesting. Wonder how this beast was supposed to be tuned.

Paul Sparkes thinks F G a d g b' e' a"

Cheers

[mrmando]

But that's eight courses.

[Graham McDonald]

But that's eight courses.

The two lowest strings would be single, with the lowest one off the edge of the fingerboard. Those two single strings often went to a separate nut halfway up the head for extra length. Just 'cause that auction house is selling it doesn't mean they actually know very much about it I would argue that it is not a 'bass mandolin' but a 'mandolone'. Bass mandolins I think of as four course instruments probably tuned an octave lower than standard.

Cheers

[Bruce Clausen]

Nice! Thanks, trebleclef. Yes, the scale length doesn't really put this in the bass range.

Materials issues will prevent many of us from bidding. That goes double for the fantastic Voboam guitar on the same auction.

Interesting the maker was in Rua Catalana. We've seen at least one Vinaccia shop located there.

[trebleclef528]

The two lowest strings would be single, with the lowest one off the edge of the fingerboard. Those two single strings often went to a separate nut halfway up the head for extra length. Just 'cause that auction house is selling it doesn't mean they actually know very much about it I would argue that it is not a 'bass mandolin' but a 'mandolone'. Bass mandolins I think of as four course instruments probably tuned an octave lower than standard.

Cheers

I would agree Graham... and the Auction Houses description of it being a seven course is I think incorrect. If you look at the photo of the back of the head, there are 16 tuning pegs (although one is missing) which would of course indicate an 8 course instrument...a manolone...

Extract from Wikipedia.....
Experts unclear over definition
Donald Gill pointed out that there is some uncertainty as to the exact nature of the instruments or what they were tuned to. He wrote about the 1989 book that James Tyler and Paul Sparks wrote together, The Early Mandolin: the Mandolino and the Neapolitan mandolin. He quoted Paul Sparks as saying the four-course Roman mandolone was "usually referred to as a liuto." This was important because the instrument did not seem to match the music written for it, and that it is unclear whether "mandolone" refers to a large mandoline or the Roman instrument created by Gaspar Ferrari. He felt that the two authors had not addressed the instrument definitively, leaving questions of interpretation.

Mandolone defined
In 1995 Paul Sparks released the book The Classical Mandolin. He took some pains to define and describe the liuto, mandolin and liola. He said that the liola and mandolone were the same instrument, different from the liuto. The mandolone was a flat-backed, bass instrument, "much larger than the liuto" with "four heavy wound strings" tuned (in fourths) to A-D-G-c.
The encyclopedia, Musical Instruments of the World says the mandolones existed with six to eight courses of string pairs.

David Betts, who has played a mandolone for the Munier Mandolin & Guitar Orchestra in Philadelphia, said that fifths is the native tuning for the mandolone. He also said that is a likely reason for the instrument's decline. The instruments longer scale length (longer than the mandocello or liuto) makes playing the instrument difficult. He said his orchestra intends to restring their mandolone, to tune it in fourths instead (which he says is standard with bass-family, stringed instruments).
Another way of tuning the mandolone has been written about by Vincent Schisano. He indicates that a version of the instrument could have its strings tuned individually instead of in pairs, showing a tuning pattern D-E-F-B-E-G-C-F.
here is a photo of reproduction of a Joannes Vinaccia mandolone 1773

[Graham McDonald]

Whoever wrote that Wikipedia entry seems a bit confused between 18th century four course bass mandolins/ and the larger eight course mandolone. I have pictures of 12 18th century Neapolitan and Roman mandolones and all have bowl bodies with string lengths around 55cm/ 21.5". Most of the four course bass mandolins have string lengths around 46cm/18" and are quite differently proportioned. I would imagine that the late 19th century re-invention of the mandocello/liuto got called a mandolone at times. Those mango-basses from Brescia are a whole other thing by themselves

I will post some photos of the mandolins on Facebook in the next couple of days.

Here is a pic of a rather nice Roman mandolone from the museum in Markneukirchen

Cheers

[Tavy]

Definitely 8 double courses - look at the closeup photo of the bridge for confirmation.

There's also an amazing 4 course instrument - just check out the inlay on this thing: http://gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/Catalo...5/lot0403.html

Also a Demeglio with a 50-80 guiade price and a Suzuki with a 200-300 guide which seems way over the top to me?

Also a "Vinaccia" for a 100 guide price (but doesn't look like a Vinaccia to me?) See http://gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/Catalo...5/lot0106.html