Closed hand picking

[phaedypants]

I have always played with an unanchored pick hand. My husband, who is a way better player than me thinks this will slow me down... I have tried to practice anchoring, but my hands are very small and it feels so constrained. My husband anchors and he still has all this space because of his long fingers! My mando doesnt have a pick guard, so it is possible to get one and see if it feels better to be anchored a bit higher... or could I just be playing with the form that works for me?
It seems to me that a couple world class players pick with a free hand...

[Jim Garber]

I would say that if you are comfortable andn are able to play what you want in the way you do it, then just continue. If you find that it holds you back, then try some other possibilities.

I think what you are terming "anchoring" is also called by some as "posting". I do have pickguards on most (but not all) my mandolins but I still do not post my pinky. Generally I keep my picking hand (in my case, the right hand) pretty loose and relaxed.

[SincereCorgi]

Jim's advice is good. I would add that if you watch videos, many – perhaps most – of the best professional players use a floating hand rather than post, so I wouldn't worry too much about it hindering speed. Having said that, I started off 'brushing' the top, where my extended fingers would be touching but not anchored to the top. This helps you figure out where the pick is in relation t the strings at first. After you've played more you will have internalized that, and can gradually start tucking the fingers in.

[Amanda Gregg]

I have always played with an unanchored pick hand. My husband, who is a way better player than me thinks this will slow me down.

I'm rarely so blunt: but this is ridiculous! If anything will slow you down and restrict your motion, it's anchoring. Almost any teacher today will tell you that a good goal is a relaxed, free right hand that moves from the wrist and not the elbow. Some folks have a lot of trouble achieving precision with a free hand, given the demands of real life, so we'll let it go.

If you've already got a nice free hand, don't fall into bad habits, just keep working on precision and power. You'll get there.

[Tobin]

I agree with Amanda Gregg, and I'm fairly certain that most of the established mandolin pros out there who give advice to new players would tell them not to post or anchor. A free picking hand and loose wrist is almost essential for good fluidity. There are exceptions, like Adam Steffey who firmly plants his pinky while playing. But I'd venture to say that people who do this have become good in spite of that, not because of it. Posting is something you want to avoid if possible. And it's definitely not something you want to try to achieve on purpose.

My playing improved dramatically once I learned to un-anchor my wrist from behind the bridge (I've never succumbed to the pinky-posting thing). I do brush my loose fingers across the pick guard (or finger guard, as it were), but leaving my right hand free has really been a good thing as I developed my picking ability.

If posting works for your husband, that's fine, but it's really not something you should try to emulate in the hopes that it will make you better. Accuracy and speed with a free right hand will come in time; don't use posting as a shortcut because it will more than likely hold you back later.

[phaedypants]

Great to get this feedback!
I do notice many great players posting, even if its loosely, and wondered if it helps their precision. I play with my hand completely closed with no contact with the mandolin, other than the strings. It feels completely natural, but yes, I need to keep working on pick control.
I play piano also, and used to always have teachers reminding me to stay close to the keys as my hands tend to float up between notes. I wondered if this was more of the same.

[Tobin]

In general, there's a lot of common ground between playing the piano and playing any instrument when it comes to that. For the mandolin specifically, you want to avoid "flying fingers" on your fretting hand, as well as any unnecessary movement with your picking hand that would take away from speed, accuracy, or quality tone production. So yeah, obviously, you want to control your hand. But that's not the same as needing to lock it down to something, which would kill fluidity. It sounds like a case of opposite goals conflicting with each other, but you have to learn to play with a loose, relaxed sense of precision.

The closed-hand versus open-hand debate can be part of this too, since all right-hand issues are related. I started out with a closed-hand picking approach, based on Chris Thile's recommendation. And it works OK - it gets the job done. But for me personally, I found that keeping my unused fingers curled up tight enough to avoid my knuckles brushing across the strings was causing a lot of extra tension in my hand and wrist. If I keep those fingers extended, but not super-straight, they can just relax and stay out of the way. I let them brush across the pick guard lightly which tends to act as a tactile reference, but without the rigidity of locking my hand down. I won't say that this is the only 'right' way to do it; it's just what works for me. Even if I were to remove the pick guard, I'd still leave my fingers loose to avoid curling them up. But if you're using a closed-hand technique and you're not adding tension by doing so, then by all means, keep doing it if it works for you. Just focus on a light pick grip, good picking angle, and precision in your movements.

[JeffD]

I do notice many great players posting, even if its loosely, and wondered if it helps their precision.

What the great players do may or may not have anything to do with what we have to do to become great.

I play with my hand completely closed with no contact with the mandolin, other than the strings. It feels completely natural, but yes, I need to keep working on pick control..

I have heard teachers advise that it is ok to brush the palm on the bridge gently. I kind of gravitated to that style.

I don't curl my hand into a fist, I just ignore what my other fingers are doing - they just kind of hang limp.

[ralph johansson]

http://www.mandozine.com/techniques/...righthand.html



My own mandolins have pickguards. I play with a loosely curled fist, brushing lightly against the guard with my fingertips.
Brushing is not posting.

On a mandolin without guard I curl my fist more tightly and brush very gently with my wrist against the strings behind the bridge. Actually almost all of the 17 techniques listed in Stangeland´s survey are related to one of these two approaches.

[fredfrank]

Nobody ever became a proficient player by anchoring or posting. Just ask Adam Steffey.

[Bill Baldridge]

Just because a person is blunt or adamant does not make him or her right or wrong. Neither does believing that Adam Steffey is good in spite of his posting make that claim more than an opinion. Around the world and across various styles of playing some great players post and others don't. Through practice and trial and error you will have to determine what works best for you....or, you can just ask me

[fatt-dad]

I don't know if I, "Post" per se, but my pinky swirls about the top, maybe the area of a half-dollar coin?

f-d

[Jackgaryk]

f-d....then there's some of us that do exactly what our arthritis allows us to do. the "senior" technique.

[JeffD]

Everything I think about this I wrote here.

[Bertram Henze]

Anchored players often use only the thumb and forefinger to hold the pick. Their argument for speed goes like this: if you only move two fingers, that's much less dead mass to heave around than one whole hand. This works as long as the picking force (pick against strings) is small, i.e. low tension strings, light picks (tenor banjo players often do it like that, and so did I before I repented from the darkside).
BUT... a mandolin is different. You get a picking force that easily exceeds what you need for moving the whole hand, and here you need the mass of the whole hand to provide the momentum, especially if you want to produce volume worth mentioning - a heavier nail calls for a bigger hammer, so to speak. It's the picking force that slows you down if you don't have that momentum to counter it.
Today, I hold the pick with thumb and index-middle-ring aligned, the pinky brushing along over the top for position reference (never could lose that), and it feels good.

[jshane]

Interesting--Obviously more than one way to skin a cat (but as Steve W. observes, You still have to skin 'em one at a time).

I find that when I am picking fast, and particularly when I need precision (picking across strings etc) I curl my fingers and buttress my index finger with my ring finger pretty my the way Chris Thile describes (prescribes?). But when I strum, or play double stops and need the pick to brush the strings at an angle, my fingers uncurl and open to facilitate this. It is basically subconscious. I dont post or rest my right hand anywhere, except when I choose to play right above the bridge to get that "plinky" tone-- in this instance I rest my hand lightly on the strings behind the bridge.

I am convinced that what works depends a lot on one's physical hand size/shape. I carefully watched Mike Marshall's right hand--- and realized there was no way I could do what he is doing-- his hands are half-again the size of mine!

[fredfrank]

Just because a person is blunt or adamant does not make him or her right or wrong. Neither does believing that Adam Steffey is good in spite of his posting make that claim more than an opinion. Around the world and across various styles of playing some great players post and others don't. Through practice and trial and error you will have to determine what works best for you....or, you can just ask me

My point was that advising someone that there is only one right way to play, is ridiculous. Chris Thile has stated that he believes there is only one right way to hold the pick. Maybe for him, that holds true. My reason for dragging Adam Steffey into the discussion, is that he has achieved astounding prowess on the mandolin in spite of breaking some people's rules.

I like to think that if something works for you, it cannot be considered wrong. Just different.

[Tobin]

I like to think that if something works for you, it cannot be considered wrong. Just different.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "works". Sure, anybody can learn to play the mandolin by posting or anchoring. By that definition, it works. But would they be a better player by following the advice of professionals who advise against it? Probably. And while neither method would be "right" or "wrong", one would definitely be "better".

Are there any professional mandolin players or teachers who specifically recommend anchoring as a better method than playing with a free wrist?

[zedmando]

On guitar I sometimes anchor my hand, sometimes not--it depends on what I'm playing.
I'll have to watch this on mandolin---but I suspect it's probably similar.
On bass I tend to play with my fingers--and I normally anchor my thumb on one of the pickups--so it's different.

Some styles of playing, some chord changes and some single note lines are easier one way and some are easier the other.

[JeffD]

My point was that advising someone that there is only one right way to play, is ridiculous. ... I like to think that if something works for you, it cannot be considered wrong. Just different.

That's why in my blog I distinguish between "right" and "wrong" on the one hand and "standard" and departing from "standard" on the other.

There may not be a right way, but there certainly is a standard way.

[fredfrank]

I don't think Adam Steffey actually recommends posting as being the best way to play. But somewhere in his learning process, he decided that it works for him...and quite well. I don't post or anchor my fingers when I play, but I do lightly touch the bridge with the heel of my hand. I don't know if this is right or not, but I'm getting the job done, and I doubt I could change if I tried.

JeffD, I like that you categorize methods as standard and departing from standard. One standard method of striking the string is to tilt the pick forward, much like Chris Thile. Many players do this, and I'm sure that this could be considered the most common method. I couldn't get my hand to do that, or make any kind of sound when I tried it. As a result, I actually tilt the pick backwards, similar to John Reischman.

My point of all this, is that if a player has tried all of the standard methods of playing, and just can't seem to make it happen, try something different. I know when I started tilting my pick upwards (left hand tilt), I was able to play much better. And not because I wanted to be like Reischman. But because it worked for him, I was encouraged to depart from standard and found something that worked for me.

If anyone is experiencing problems playing because the standard methods aren't allowing them to progress, don't be afraid to deviate from standard. You might find something that will unlock this wonderful little instrument for you.

[mandroid]

took lesson or 2 was told (analogy) picking with tight fist was like the skater spins faster with their ams in..

i just worked instead on playing the music and moved away from that city, SF. before it got REALLY Expensive

[bigskygirl]

I would take a lesson or two from a mandolin teacher and have them look over your technique. The only thing I'll throw out is that you MAY....I say MAY be developing a bad technique that COULD limit you down the road.

Most likely not but it doesn't hurt to have a teacher (and get someone who plays mandolin as their main instrument) take a look, many top players do Skype lessons now and would be happy to help with a few sessions. If they think your technique is solid and you're comfortable then ignore what others say.

There is not a single jam I go to that someone doesn't have their theory of how I should hold my hand or play chords a certain way but I stick with what my teacher shows me and what's comfortable for me. I find my fingers kind of loosely hang when I'm strumming but curl up into a loose fist when picking or chopping, then again I do the opposite at times proving to me that there is no one set way to do things.

Wait until you get the advice that you should swing your arm from the elbow, not the wrist.....

[JeffD]

I say MAY be developing a bad technique that COULD limit you down the road.

What I have found, over and over, is that when I plateau, and cannot seem to get better, it is some non-standard technique in the way. Once I find it and fix it, progress starts again.

A non-standard technique does not appear to be limiting (in my experience) while there more egregious and limiting problems to deal with. It seems that only when everything "worse" is "fixed" does a particular problem's limitations seem evident.

This has been my experience too many times for me to ignore the message.

[AlanN]

Here's what Doyle Lawson has to say on the matter:

"When I first started playing, I played from the elbow. It creates an imbalance in
your notes and volume; you don't get the same tone with an upstroke as you do with a
downstroke . And You can't play fast; I just couldn't play fast at all.
So I was visiting with Jimmy Martin when I was about 14 years old, and he said, "Son,
you've got to play from your wrist. All your playing is from there."

Playing from your wrist doesn't mean any certain way; it means playing from your
wrist in the most comfortable way that you can play. Myself, I get my support by brushing
the bridge and just behind, but there is no pressure there. People ask me all the time,
"I can't keep my A string in tune" or "I can't keep my D string ... ". And I say, "Where
do you rest your hand?"
Well, they press the strings behind the bridge , and they press one or another out of
tune. So you don't want to put any pressure on your bridge, or your tailpiece, or your
strings. My hand brushes the top of the bridge, but there's absolutely no pressure there”

- excerpted from Niles Hokkanen's excellent book of Doyle solos