Gibson Oval-Hole Recommendations?

[NursingDaBlues]

My original intent was to purchase a Weber Vintage A; ideally one built between 2007 and 2010. I really like their sound. And, frankly, I especially like the way Webers fit my hand. However, I’ve been considering broadening my horizon a bit.

I know very little about Gibsons. They just never have been on my radar. What oval- / D-hole models would be worth considering? I know that there are always several available on-line, eBay, CL, and in the consignment shops in Colorado. But because I know so little about them, I want to get a little background before I start actively looking. Budget up to $7500.

[sgrexa]

With a budget up to $7500, you can get one hell of a vintage A model Gibson. With some searching, you could even get a Gilchrist Model 1 which is the modern king of oval holes IMO. You can pretty much include ANY oval hole A model Gibson I can think of and F model as well including Loar era F-2's and F-4s. Weber seems to be alone in the carved top "D hole" market aside from some obscure one offs and such from guys like Andy Manson in the UK and maybe a few others. My advice: do not overlook a beat up old snakehead Ajr, these are treasured by many and you will have plenty of cash left in your pocket.

Sean

[Capt. E]

If you have a $7500 budget, you can choose just about any vintage Gibson oval hole, including an F-4. I would look for a Loar vintage snakehead A-2Z or A-4 and would not accept anything that wasn't in all-original condition with no repairs necessary. You should have a good bit left over from your budget.
A Loar vintage F-4 would probably use up the budget. I will leave it to others to fill in more details.
You really need to find a shop that has a few on the wall and try them out. They have a rather different feel and sound that any modern instrument. These days, I prefer my 1920 Gibson A-2 over my Weber "Bighorn" (a great instrument in its own right).

Here is a very nice A-4 in the classifieds right now.http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/85228

[JeffD]

Of course there is no reason to spend the whole budget if you don't need to. While I think a vintage F4 is one of the most beautiful instruments, it will not necessarily sound any different from a vintage A2 or A4. There is a lot of variability in the vintage instruments, and how an particular instrument sounds likely has more to do with how it has weathered the decades than what model it is.

I have an A2 snakehead, made in 1923. It does everything I will ever need to a mandolin to do, and though I bought it early on in my mandolin journey, I still haven't lived up to its potential. Further, every mandolin I have purchased since that one has been superfluous, when considered realistically. I was extremely lucky in getting a good one because, at the time, I could hardly tell what a good one might be.

[NursingDaBlues]

Of course there is no reason to spend the whole budget if you don't need to. While I think a vintage F4 is one of the most beautiful instruments, it will not necessarily sound any different from a vintage A2 or A4. There is a lot of variability in the vintage instruments, and how an particular instrument sounds likely has more to do with how it has weathered the decades than what model it is.

I have an A2 snakehead, made in 1923. It does everything I will ever need to a mandolin to do, and though I bought it early on in my mandolin journey, I still haven't lived up to its potential. Further, every mandolin I have purchased since that one has been superfluous, when considered realistically. I was extremely lucky in getting a good one because, at the time, I could hardly tell what a good one might be.

I’ve not done a side-by-side between vintage F-4 and A2/A4. The F-4 is indeed a gorgeous instrument; yet to my eyes, so are the A’s. But I’m more about the sound these days. So I’m pretty much open to either F or A; whichever has the better tone to my ear. Having said that, I’ve read many glowing Snakehead endorsements. Is there some definable characteristic that made them so appreciated by so many?

[allenhopkins]

You won't find a systemic difference in sound between Gibson F-model and A-model oval-hole instruments from the period most posters are recommending.

For your budget, as stated, you can pretty much "have your pick." Since you're contemplating such substantial investment, I'd seriously consider visiting a store that has a selection of instruments for consideration.

"Snakehead" A-model Gibsons were made in what's considered the best period of early Gibson manufacturing, the "Loar era" of the early 1920's. Basic design of the instruments didn't differ that strongly from the earlier "paddle-head" period, other than the shape of the headstocks and the introduction of truss rods and adjustable bridges. Workmanship within the Gibson shop may have reached a peak during the period; I dunno.

My perspective is that the differences among individual instruments -- in terms of sound and appearance -- are so substantial, especially after nearly a century, that the only way to make a truly informed evaluation is hands-on experience. If I'm spending a few hundred buxx, I'm willing to go by reputation and recommendation and buy an instrument I haven't tried. Well into four figures, I have to play several instruments, pick the one that best suits me.

Just my 2¢.

[pheffernan]

Is there some definable characteristic that made them so appreciated by so many?

The snakehead headstock is a visual cue that alerts you of an era in which several positive innovations were introduced, such as the adjustable bridge and truss rod, as well as an association, however tenuous, with some of the magic of the Lloyd Loar era.

[Capt. E]

I notice your avatar is the headstock of an early 20th century Martin. I had a 1926 Martin C for a while and liked it alot. It had some advantages over Gibsons of the period, especially when playing classical pieces. Its tone is not as "woody" and lacks the volume of the carved top Gibsons. You could do worse than compare the Martin when making a decision on a new mandolin.

[NursingDaBlues]

My perspective is that the differences among individual instruments -- in terms of sound and appearance -- are so substantial, especially after nearly a century, that the only way to make a truly informed evaluation is hands-on experience. If I'm spending a few hundred buxx, I'm willing to go by reputation and recommendation and buy an instrument I haven't tried. Well into four figures, I have to play several instruments, pick the one that best suits me.

Just my 2¢.

This purchase will be a substantial investment (at least it will be for me). So I’m trying to do my homework. I’ll be traveling Georgia and the Carolinas in June and hope to make time to see what’s available there. I may or may not find anything I like. I may or may not run across something locally. This process may take a couple of years. But if nothing else, I’m patient. I need/want to actually feel and play and hear whatever I’m going to buy. And, you know, I may walk away saying that another brand has what I’m looking for. I just want to ensure that I know what I’m looking at when I’m looking at it.

And Allen, I appreciate your 2¢, anytime it’s offered.

[NursingDaBlues]

I notice your avatar is the headstock of an early 20th century Martin. I had a 1926 Martin C for a while and liked it alot. It had some advantages over Gibsons of the period, especially when playing classical pieces. Its tone is not as "woody" and lacks the volume of the carved top Gibsons. You could do worse than compare the Martin when making a decision on a new mandolin.

It’s a 1919 style C. Beautiful tone. Wonderful playability. And it can make a duffer like me sound like I know what I’m doing. It’s a great one for entertaining myself on quiet evenings with old, slow songs. I’m just looking for a stronger sound in an oval hole; something along the lines of what the old blues and Appalachian mandolin players had. If that makes any sense.

[hank]

The tonal differences between Gibson A style and F style oval hole are not nearly as great as the the difference between preLoar and Loar era oval holes. If you like a big fat neck and fretboard with wide string spacing and a bold "IN YOUR FACE" kind of sound(more toward a banjo kind of sound)you'll like teens Era instruments. I have a 1913 Blackface A4 and this is the best I can describe it in comparison to my 1923 F4. Both have the old Gibson oval sound but the 23 F4 has a more refined and eloquent tone to my ears. The biggest difference to me is how much more easily I can manipulate the narrow neck and string spacing of my F4. I have never had a more responsive fun to play instrument than this F4 but it can be over driven when comparing it with my 06 Goldrush's pop. That thing is a monster with a built in subwoofer that can't be over driven. It just gets louder shooting the notes out like a cannon. I do have to slant the pick more to get the best tone from the F5's E strings though. I think I do this on all three mandolins but the F5's E strings are the most sensitive to sounding tinny if picked flatly without slanting the pick.
The three mandolins are so different, each with it's own unique voice, response and sustain qualities. The F5 and the F4 are the most alike in feel and response with the F5 lacking the F4's sweet voice and long sustain. If you could play one of each type back to back it might eliminate the need to try out the type that doesn't fit your hands or mind set. There are good ones and not so good ones in all three categories but all will fit into the general characteristics of that model and design era. If I had to let one go it would be my A4 but I know other folks who prefer the teens Gibsons over the truss rodded later models.

[mandrian]

Hi,

I like you was attracted to the sound of the vintage Gibson A's. I eventually went down a different route and bought a present day copy by buying an A4 (with Virzi) as made by Cafe member Mike Black. I was so impressed that I ordered an A5 from Mike and have now received that. Both are great mandolins.

I went down this route as I like the improved playability (radius fretboard) and the fact that they come in perfect condition with a lifetime warranty.

Perhaps worth considering.

Regards

[Tobin]

I'm a huge fan of vintage oval-hole mandolins from the teens and early twenties. And with your budget of $7500, you should be able to pretty much take your pick of any of them.

But a word of caution on condition. These are all over the map, and you want to be very careful about cracks, top sinkage, separation at the heel or tailblock, shrinkage, inoperable tuners, etc. It would be a travesty to spend your money on a prize and then realize you have to spend thousands to get it repaired. None of them will be in perfect condition (cracks and some flattening of the arch top are normal), but you'll want to make sure that you know what repairs have been done, whether parts are original or replacements, and if any cracks are stable or in the process of causing collapse.

This really complicates the hunt beyond deciding which model you want.

[NursingDaBlues]

This really complicates the hunt beyond deciding which model you want.

There was a forum string not too long ago stating that "wanting is a better feeling than having;" (hopefully I didn't butcher the quote). So I guess the chase makes it all worthwhile. But just once I wish something would come easy...

Thanks for the advice!

[GKWilson]

I agree with mandarin. I have an A2 and an A5 made by Mike.
I think there the closest Gibson A copy on the market without
any of the repair headaches of the originals.
They are also custom. My A5 has large frets and 1 3/16" nut.
Gary

[Eddie Sheehy]

There's a gorgeous Red Diamond A4 in the Classifieds... MFI... http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/85305

[Timbofood]

Had I the wherewithal, I would take Captain E's suggestion, and snap the snake head A-4 like a light switch! And still have some funds left over! It's beautiful, and I have serious doubts that you would be let down.

[JeffD]

Lots of good advice, lots of options at your price point. Go for the sound and playability, whether new or old. Ovals are a lot of fun.

[NursingDaBlues]

Lots of good advice, lots of options at your price point. Go for the sound and playability, whether new or old. Ovals are a lot of fun.

Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate the encouragement...and the validation.

[fatt-dad]

no need to pay more than $2,500 for a Loar-era snakhead oval-hole mandolin. For sure an A2Z or A4 would be much more. Not sure they'd sound better though.

f-d

[mandobassman]

There's a gorgeous Red Diamond A4 in the Classifieds... MFI... http://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/85305

I saw this tonight and so wish I could buy it. The best oval hole mandolin I ever heard, hands down, was a Red Diamond. It had so much power and volume that it took me a while to realize that it even was a oval hole. Amazing instrument and better sound than any Gibson A I ever heard. That one in the Classifieds is the one I'd buy.

[mandobassman]

no need to pay more than $2,500 for a Loar-era snakhead oval-hole mandolin. For sure an A2Z or A4 would be much more. Not sure they'd sound better though.

f-d

I certainly would agree with that. The first good mandolin I owned was a Gibson A from 1924. Played it in a bluegrass band for nearly ten years and was not typical of the oval hole sound. It was very strong in volume and tone. I've played some A's and a few F2's and F4's. Some of the f models were great, but a few of the A models were even better. So, it's not really necessary to spend 5 or 6 K on a oval hole to get great sound. With patience, you can get a wonderful A model oval hole for under $3000.

[hank]

fat-dad, do the Ajr's, Loar and post Loar paddlehead A4's have the same neck and string spacing as the older ones. I've never been clear on this. Doesn't the Ajr lack a truss rod and the neck ergonomics of the Loar Era F2,4,5,A,A1,A2,A3,A4&A2Z snakeheads?

[hank]

Mandobassman I have hear the same thing so far as Red Diamond oval's along with both Black and Kimble. I would love to A/B any of these modern oval holed mandolins. I've also heard that some snake heads sound better than F2/4's of the same period. My F4 isn't even close in power and volume to a good F5 but makes up for it overall in a way I find hard to describe. I look at it as a guitarist does a parlor guitar.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Have a look & listen to one of the new'ish' Northfield NF 2S oval hole models - https://youtu.be/1POJMZAtB0I - Emory Lester.
https://youtu.be/-dakTwb4fX4 Adam Steffey's Northfield demo / workshop. Zip along to around 30 minutes into the clip & listen to the tone of the NF 2S - it blew me away,
Ivan