Mandolin more difficult than guitar - cosmic truth!

[catmandu2]

Every instrument has its "easy" and "difficult" aspects. Harp is "easy" because it is diatonic. Even chromatic pedal harps are diatonic while you are playing them. This means a great reduction in "wrong" notes. Once it is tuned (no small feat) the player doesn't affect the intonation for good OR bad. Other aspects may be more or less difficult.

The relative "easier/harder" concepts applied to instrumental technique are all clumsy comparisons of apples and oranges. I'm addressing the fundamental overt aspects aside from their tuning, temperament, intonation, idiomatic deployment, etc. *Which is why I made no distinction among harps - don't forget there are chromatic small (double and triple) harps as well, etc.* For example - take a very long wire and a very short wire: compare how much variety can be employed on each. Etc. I'm speaking just the technical mechanism of activation (of touch on the string); otherwise, we'd have to say stuff like - the harp is easier to play lush chords and a beautiful gliss, the mandolin easier to play a reel, etc...while much more interesting a discussion it makes - it's another separate consideration entirely. (We get lots of - more viable - direct comparison discussions on other fora - such as accordians with which there is a basic dichotomy of buttons and keys, but both activating the same reeds, and concertinas with which there are basic different layout configurations...sometimes we even compare wire and gut/nylon harps..)


If we want to get a somewhat better comparison between, say, mandolin and guitar, we'd have to limit the application/deployment to, say, flatpicking, standard-tuned, etc. The premise of the thread is not viable at all, of course, without endless qualifications and parameters. So, I'm just talking about some (physical/technical) aspects. I enjoy the rest of the conversation, but only if you'd/others'd be too

[JeffD]

im sorry to be contrary, but i think guitar is far more difficult, .

You have a good point. When there are so many easily achieved options, it requires more understanding, discernment, and technique to intelligently choose among them and create music.

Its hard to sort out. Having a lot of crayons makes it easier to be mediocre because you can do a range of things, but harder to be really great because there is more to think about and use intelligently. Having only a few crayons is hard to get mediocre at because you can't do a lot, but perhaps it is a bit easier to become excellent because there is not as much to consider in getting to your goal.

I really don't know.

[catmandu2]

Here's why small instruments (and particularly the mandolin - fully chromatic) are so fun to play and lend themselves to "folk" idioms I think - their smaller scale renders them generally "easier" to play diatonically (standard-tuned, the guitar - with its longer scale/wider frets - can be more challenging to play in this "diatonic"/melodic style). Of course it all depends on what one is doing, style, approach, etc.. It's an interesting topic in the accordion world because, there, you're able to easily choose your instrument precisely by the number and choice of "accidental" notes it can produce...and folks play, both, chromatic style on diatonic instruments, as well as diatonic style on chromatic instruments, to varying levels of success..

Harp too - as David mentioned - small harps lend to folk style as the "standard" lever-type harp is diatonic.

[JeffD]

I think the kind of person you are makes a difference too. For better or worse I have never been an emulator. I always wanted to know how to do it, and either figure it out or be shown the pathway. I was never comfortable just picking it up and doing what I see others doing. This has set me back in a number of instances, most obvious to me that there are many many things I never attempted only because I didn't know how and could not figure it out. I might have done better, more often, just jumping in and trust that someone would catch me and correct me if I screwed it up.

I think mandolin is an excellent instrument for a person like me, because the symmetry and logic of it rewards trying to figure it out. Why this and why that - oh here is why. Guitar has never seemed that way to me. At the beginners level the guitar seems to be a "try and make sounds like this" kind of instrument. I have never been good at that.

[SincereCorgi]

Once it is tuned (no small feat) the player doesn't affect the intonation for good OR bad...

Ha, that's a pretty big 'once'. Those poor harpists are usually on stage tuning well before the first percussionist turns up to drag in the timpani.

[catmandu2]

Ha, that's a pretty big 'once'. Those poor harpists are usually on stage tuning well before the first percussionist turns up to drag in the timpani.

It's a difficult thing, and largely why I don't take my large harp for playing out - wire (and its complex overtones) tends to be more temperamental (than nylon) , and tuning can be long and arduous (and I'm accustomed to tuning fast and well since as a kid, as I've always done it all by ear). An e-tuner can help, but it's such a subtle thing with wire harp that I just do it all by ear

[Petrus]

You want simple, stick to claves.

[catmandu2]

yes!

[Billgrass]

Jeff, based on my life experience you are so on the money, its not funny! This applies to both this and your followup about road life in bar bands in the 70's. I turned to mando to repent all my sinful shortcuts on guitar, bass and keyboards back in the day. Unfortunately I picked mando, as opposed to dobro or banjo or fiddle - so I'll be working for the rest of my life to try to become an intermediate! Why didn't my grandfather play BANJO!

The real explanation, I think, is timing. Timing in life. Those who go from guitar to mandolin, started the guitar way back before it mattered to them much how good they were. They learned the chords and went and played with friends. Done. After a while the budding guitarist decides to not only learn songs, but learn guitar, and figure things out.

It is after this stage in guitar life, typically, that a guitarist goes to mandolin. And vowing to actually learn the mandolin, what they find is: Wow, this is harder than I remember learning guitar to be. That is, learning the mandolin is harder than learning the handful of guitar chords one needs as a youngster in order to play guitar with friends.

Just my take on it generalizing from those I play with and know.

[Nashville]

Interesting to see what ground this discussion covered. I think the main issue for me is physically (sonic-ally) getting a good, clear note consistently seems more difficult on mandolin than guitar. There is a small sweet spot, smaller target to hit, compared to a guitar, because the frets are closer and strings more taut. I think I can fudge a bit more on the guitar and still get a good sound. The mandolin requires a higher degree of accuracy. Also since there is less sustain on the mandolin it requires additional technique to keep both chords and melodies musical and not just have dull notes that drop off to nowhere.

I don't think learning the mandolin fret board is harder than the guitar, indeed it is more simple. But to learn any fiddle tune for instance, requires more repetitions on the mandolin till I get it down in muscle memory, compared to guitar. I've got to play it over and over and over and really concentrate on good sounding notes. But on the guitar I can get that same tune worked up in pretty short order without too much extra effort. That's really all I was saying and maybe it's just my experience shared by a few.

[catmandu2]

And I apologize for getting carried away - I'm often that way thinking abut instruments ..

[MysTiK PiKn]

And I apologize for getting carried away - I'm often that way thinking abut instruments ..

No need for apology. Your experience and comparisons are interesting. And to me more towards the topical "cosmic truth", available in music; and even called forth here; although lately you're describing basics, eloquently, while setting a stage for more relevance. I'd rather a ton of that than advocation of mediocrity. And you obviously have a lot of experience. It is commendable that you would share it. I follow my interests. No problem.
Some day I will fumble around on a cello. If I am lucky, one will come to me - as did a violin recently, and a nice older one at that, it being of elegant flame, well preserved. However, my sensitive ears long for a cello - to me, the ultimate instrument, being entirely within the range of human hearing. But it's the dark bark bass I love, and long for.

This gestalt keeps moving - few speak of such. Imagine that.

cheers.

[Capt. E]

I have always "messed around with various instruments and have been self taught for the most part, attempting saxophone, clarinet, flute, harmonica, guitar, button accordion and mandolin, to varying degrees of competency. Mandolin has been the one that stuck. Guitar just never did. It just seemed more difficult. I'll die playing mandolin and will probably never pick up a guitar again.

[catmandu2]

Well thank you m-pikn and I'm with you about cello

cello - But it's the dark bark bass I love, and long for.

(check out Ms Leandre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paQXL1f3_UA ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdXH7440_9Y )

And my bloviating about this or that, I get all in a rant...playing arco bass and studying jazz is the hardest thing I ever did musically - hell, I injured myself; trying to get really fluid and consistent at flamenco guitar - these probably were all much harder than harping...of course as you all've said, nothing's easy and it's all hard..

[shins]

To those who think mandolin requires a great deal of precision; try playing the fiddle! You will no longer think mandolin takes much precision.

[catmandu2]

I presume violin in Western "classical" trad is one of the most challenging. I think, generally - an instrument's relative difficulty is roughly commensurate with its expressive capacity (of course, we can make big, beautiful sounds with a just-intonated guitar - a warped 12-string, say, unsuitable for much anything else; modal music can certainly be expressive...but in a somewhat limited way, etc. - so the theory only goes so far..

I always think of the erhu (or cultural equivalent - think of the difficulty of pursuing that to our limit).. I've only dabbled on a poor (not very resonant) sitar - I think it would be one of the more difficult instruments, given its ergonomics; but I think - combines the elements that I particularly love - a harp-like affair with technical elements like flamenco..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk60ObnbIOk

Flute is very challenging too, and any wind instrument/implement that you have to blow..

[SincereCorgi]

Interesting to see what ground this discussion covered. I think the main issue for me is physically (sonic-ally) getting a good, clear note consistently seems more difficult on mandolin than guitar. There is a small sweet spot, smaller target to hit, compared to a guitar, because the frets are closer and strings more taut. I think I can fudge a bit more on the guitar and still get a good sound. The mandolin requires a higher degree of accuracy. Also since there is less sustain on the mandolin it requires additional technique to keep both chords and melodies musical and not just have dull notes that drop off to nowhere.

This has absolutely been my experience. Just the nature of having two-string courses makes mandolin harder, too, I think, since it's harder to get 1) a clean fretted note on both strings and 2) a good clean contact with the pick over both strings. Even very good mandolin players seem to get a lot more 'dirt' in the sound as a result. Also, standard guitar tuning is a beautifully designed system for creating chords, whereas mandolin is always a matter of compromises.

And jazz... man, it can be very frustrating to play alongside violins and guitars that can bend notes so easily and get beautiful long sustains. It takes a lot of effort to keep a mandolin from sounding dry and picky in that setting.

Oh well, at least the case is lighter.

[Ben Cooper]

Well, after reading this forum for the past year or so I have come to this solid scientific conclusion based solely on my subjective analysis of forum threads: learning to be good on the mandolin is more difficult than learning to be good on a guitar. I know this because my experience jives with a bunch of other pickers here, so it should be carved in stone or ivoroid. The truth is not out there, but here in this forum.

Learning the mandolin takes much more practice, much more accuracy, much more muscle development, much more coordination, much more humor, much more beer for some folks, much more nail biting about picks, strings, hand position, how to learn, how to practice, what to do, what not to do, and a host of other concerns. Whereas guitar players just kinda go for it.

So the following conclusions can be drawn:
1) mandolin pickers should be paid more than the guitar player
2) mandolin pickers are sexier
3) mandolin pickers who started on mandolin at an early age and are really good now are flat out cheaters!
4) mandolin pickers that keep after it are true heroes
5) a lot of older dudes that played guitar for a thousand years and now have taken up mandolin have caused the glaciers to melt and raised sea levels
6) mandolin pickers should be paid more only if they started first on guitar!

I know it's hard to dispute this true science, but we all know it's true. What other conclusions can be drawn? Why is life so cruel? Why do I have to work so hard?!?!

Yup to all!

[MysTiK PiKn]

This has absolutely been my experience. Just the nature of having two-string courses makes mandolin harder, too, I think, since it's harder to get 1) a clean fretted note on both strings and 2) a good clean contact with the pick over both strings. Even very good mandolin players seem to get a lot more 'dirt' in the sound as a result. Also, standard guitar tuning is a beautifully designed system for creating chords, whereas mandolin is always a matter of compromises.

And jazz... man, it can be very frustrating to play alongside violins and guitars that can bend notes so easily and get beautiful long sustains. It takes a lot of effort to keep a mandolin from sounding dry and picky in that setting.

Oh well, at least the case is lighter.

Well, in jams, or small gatherings, playing with other instruments is more about the interaction of the different sounds of those instruments. And the best might be when everybody just gets lucky, and all those notes pop clean. There's the harmony, and the interaction of sounds.
It sounds obvious; but in the scenario you mention, you aren't playing those other instruments; you are playing a picky mandolin, and that's just what it is. It might be helpful and useful to play along with a radio station, or similar, that's just motoring along with whatever instruments or genre (classical?) - and then just add mandolin on top wherever you can. It's hard to find notes and key etc, at first; but you might be able to find one chord and maybe a quick riff or scale of just a few notes that you can playalong, and just sneak those in w mandolin. I do this a lot.
Try also listening to some Django Reinhart Hot Club music - usually strange sound, and yet you can hear all these often acoustic instruments actually blending into the magic sound - that's hard to communicate - gotta hear that.

I hear what you say also about accurate fretting and buzz, and yes, there's often a buzzer on mandolin; but I think it improves with time and effort. So I am kinda saying ignore it somewhat, or maybe practice clean notes later. The actual pikn is part of that too. I have learned a lot, and have improved in a few areas by just ignoring sound quality for the purpose of flying through something, no matter how rough it might sound. Get close, and you have something you can practice slowly later.

If you can't lose the buzz, it might be string height too low, not enough neck relief, bridge too low, or even some high frets or low frets on the neck. I have been dealing with a lot of that lately, and have almost resolved it. But I'm not sure if that is an issue for you. A mandolin is prone to buzz for the reasons you mention - but we all get lucky sometimes. Perfection is possible; but that might be a little boring sometimes, and perhaps too hypercritical. I find my baby finger has a hard time controlling strings on mandolin - but it was pretty whiney on the guitar also - it has accuracy issues, and it's lazy.

[catmandu2]

This has absolutely been my experience. Just the nature of having two-string courses makes mandolin harder, too, I think, since it's harder to get 1) a clean fretted note on both strings and 2) a good clean contact with the pick over both strings. Even very good mandolin players seem to get a lot more 'dirt' in the sound as a result. Also, standard guitar tuning is a beautifully designed system for creating chords, whereas mandolin is always a matter of compromises.

And jazz... man, it can be very frustrating to play alongside violins and guitars that can bend notes so easily and get beautiful long sustains. It takes a lot of effort to keep a mandolin from sounding dry and picky in that setting.

I find roughly the opposite - I think that it's the resonant sustain of the mandolin that is the difficulty in its use as a "jazz" instrument. Taking tenor(/plectrum) banjo for example (as this is the 5ths-tuned instrument I play, rather than mandolin) - its clarity, crispness and volume requires playing precision at all times - like a drum - as, both, precise-deployment as well as not-so-precise deployment are heard clearly; IOW, errors in technique are always highly audible. Double-courses, I find, permits more latitude for fudging - although difficult to explain why - maybe it's a bit like a little added reverb or something produced by the overtones and resonance of wood and double-courses. It's the banjo's clarity that makes it such a great jazz instrument - for extended chords and voicings - its sound is always up-front and clear. The resonance of wood and double-courses impedes this, comparatively, as the longer overtones and sustain muddies extensions/voicings more. I feel like the double-courses are more accommodating of technique lapse: although intent is always to play cleanly, if I don't - it's less audible on mandolin (as compared to banjo, harp, etc., where there is but one chance, you might say, to hit the note cleanly...or the result is profoundly compromised).

The double-courses gives the mandolin its character in added dimension. Take hammered dulcimer - an extreme example for illustration's sake - its great asset is the resonant sustain of wood box and multi-courses: this is an instrument I abhor in ensemble playing, or for use in music with much harmony, etc. But this is a great vehicle for going solo and making a big sound - I can fudge all day long...enabled by the broader dimension of multi-courses..

[Tobin]

To those who think mandolin requires a great deal of precision; try playing the fiddle! You will no longer think mandolin takes much precision.

I've been dabbling with the fiddle lately. Yeah, that's the hardest part: perfect finger placement. I can't quite seem (yet) to do a decent vibrato movement with my left hand to fudge over imperfect finger placement, either. But one thing I think the fiddle has going for it is that you get to choose your pitch exactly. A slightly sharp or flat note is only a slight fingertip roll away from being perfect, and there's something to be said for slurring into any particular note as a way to 'find' the perfect pitch. Lots of ways to adjust on the fiddle, where the mandolin is more rigid in the notes it produces. If the saddle is leaning, or the bridge is slightly out of place, or the frets are worn, or the strings are old, or the tuners aren't holding perfectly, or the humidity is high, or the sun keeps coming out and shining on your mandolin and then going behind the clouds, it makes it maddening to play in tune. With the fiddle, it's pretty easy to just adjust one's fingers to compensate. It may take me a while to learn to do that well, but I do like that on-the-fly adjustability!

[SincereCorgi]

It's the banjo's clarity that makes it such a great jazz instrument - for extended chords and voicings - its sound is always up-front and clear.

I think we just disagree on this, as I don't think of the banjo fits very well as a jazz ensemble instrument in any of the styles that developed after 1933 or so, for the same reason that you don't hear the xylophone in jazz much after that era. This isn't to say that it can't work, but you really gotta work and accept that you're paddling upstream.

[catmandu2]

Well, frankly I think it's largely due to the electric guitar, and after shaping tastes to the more mellifluous guitar from the raunchy banjo tone, yes I agree I don't think I want to hear the banjo in be-bop. But if the e-guitar had never come about (ha), I think we'd all be hearing banjos everywhere, boisterous t'would be.. (Can someone photshop Bird on banjo? (no, don't! - just kidding ... I like jazz just the way it is!)

And I forgot to say - the "jazz" I play is early - Joplin, Jelly roll, Ellington...which is a joy on the long 'jo. Although, someday I might arrange some Mingus. *And now, thinking it over, I think monk would be just fine on banjo - Blue Monk, anything bluesy, all monk - it's a blues machine.. In fact...piano is a comparison I often use when talking about plectrum banjo PB - its scale so long that we have quite the range for harmonic embellishment and lots of chord play...lots of voicings, syncopations, phrasing - all on a tuneful drum.

If I get time I'll see about arranging some of my modern favorites..

[Drew Egerton]

I played guitar for around 3 years before a girl at my college let me borrow her mandolin for a few days. I fell in love with it right away after finding a few simple melodies.
I think the mandolin was easier to start on, but that's also because I had the general philosophy down of 'fret with the left hand, pick with the right' already.
11 years later, I haven't mastered either one but I feel about equally talented on both. I do feel more confident playing song I don't really know in group settings on the mandolin because I can get by for half the song chopping without necessarily knowing every chord...not so on guitar.

I bought a dobro a year or so before starting mandolin and I was dumbfounded and wound up selling it. Playing with fingerpicks and a slide just did not compute like a pick and frets. Maybe again someday later...

[catmandu2]

s-corgi, I always want to work out epistrophy and mysterioso anyway...and here I am sitting here with banjo on my knee getting to it ... even though I've got splint on one hand. My version is going to be Latin.

Thanks!

*Cool - E. lies really nice on PB (GDAE) - although it sounds rather more "Joplin-esque" until it swings (I haven't Latinized it yet . Mysterioso will be a little more work ..but play is over for now

I used this version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ9El7k4mNo Hear the deconstructed Joplin in the intro/head?