Monroe Style Mandolin: Staggered 16th Notes

[DataNick]

Chris Henry teaching/demonstrating a technical device that Bill Monroe often employed while playing mandolin breaks. This deliberate technique is what often is mistaken as the "sloppiness" heard in Monroe's playing.

Disclaimer: If you do not like Bill Monroe or Monroe Style Mandolin then you might want to consider avoiding this thread altogether. It's a free internet and you can do as you choose, but there's no need to subject yourself to subject matter that you find distasetful.

That being said, the posting of this thread is meant to engage worthwhile discussion of a little known device used by Bill Monroe, and to share the teaching tool used to communicate that device.

Keep pickin'

[AlanN]

Thanks, Nick. Chris demonstrates it clearly and his playing is deft.

[Cheryl Watson]

This is GREAT! Thanks, Nick. Chris is a monster mandolin player and a great teacher.

[NoNickel]

I sure wish Chris H would do another Monroe style video, maybe picking songs that explore unique Monroeisms like this. We certainly need as many resources as we can get. I would buy one for sure.

[Josh Levine]

Great video his mandolin sounds very loarish

[mandobsessed]

What a great explanation. I always think of this style as Monroe's left hand being a bit 'ahead' of his right bur this explanation makes more sense. THe hardest thing about Monroe style for me is the very thing that people don's seem to like about it, which is the seeming roughness of it, how he doesn't see, to quite hit the notes. Using this technique makes that more natural.


WHile not really a Monroe player myself I find I play lines starting with the upstroke (which seems to be what Bill does, using the downstroke on the lead in note) gives a different syncopation to the whole line, especially when playing with fiddlers.

[JeffD]

In every genre, it is wonderful to find the handful of simple (once you know) techniques that define it and make your playing recognizable as being in that style.

With bluegrass on the mandolin we have an entire genre based on how one man played the darn thing.

Good stuff.

[Don Grieser]

Great explanation of one part of Monroe's playing. Changing notes on the upstroke gives a certain pulse to the runs that you can't really get any other way.

[DataNick]

Great video his mandolin sounds very loarish

It's a Randy Wood mandolin...

[Ivan Kelsall]

Chris's mandolin tone has more than a shade of the tone of Bill Monroe's instrument & he gives a great explanation of one of my favourite Bill Monroe 'sounds',
Ivan

[AlanN]

Yes, Bill's style was so idiosyncratic and ever-changing over the years. I would say the closest-to-Bill current picker (not to take away from Chris Henry, who has it down cold) who is out there doing it - touring, recording - is Ronnie McCoury. A local guy, Daniel Aldridge, can do the down-stroke thing like nobody's business. A post above talks about all of the Monroe Style pickers bring something different to it. So true. Alan Bibey recorded Evening Prayer Blues. Has some Bill feel, but it's Alan all the way. Bob Osborne said something like you can't beat a man at his own game. And Bill didn't try stuff out of his realm. Crosspicking? Not his bag. Strings of triplets? No, sir. Altered chords? Nope.

[JeffD]

And Bill didn't try stuff out of his realm. Crosspicking? Not his bag. Strings of triplets? No, sir. Altered chords? Nope.

What would you say about this thought. Bill Monroe was not a mandolin player. <letting the gasps subside> What I am thinking, based on what you said AlanN, is that more than "playing the mandolin" Bill played music, his music, on mandolin. He wasn't focused on the mandolin (like we all are) in all of its minute details, he wasn't striving to be a mandolinist, or to be known as one. (Unlike say Scruggs was going after both the music and being a stand-out banjoist). Instead Monroe was kind of oblivious to the mandolin. It was what he used to get his music out, but he was focused on the music.

Just thinking out loud - but what strikes me sometimes in Bill's playing is a kind of urgency - like an impatience with the mandolin as too narrow a conduit for all the music he wants to push through it.

He was building a structure, and the mandolin was his hammer. But the building was his passion.

[AlanN]

Well-said, JeffD.

Wasn't this his: I'm a farmer who plays mandolin.

[Amanda Gregg]

He wasn't focused on the mandolin (like we all are) in all of its minute details, he wasn't striving to be a mandolinist, or to be known as one.

I don't know. I've always admired how he chose certain keys and certain techniques to push sound out of the mandolin. I'm thinking of, for example, Kentucky Mandolin. He chose G Minor because his mandolin sounded great in G Minor. That reflects a real love for the instrument itself. I think a lot of the choices he made can be rationalized as pushing sound out of a real live instrument without the aid of much amplification. Cross-picking, for example, doesn't fit that bill. Jesse McReynolds used a very light setup and lots of amplification to make that work.

For every story about Bill thinking of his instruments as nothing more than a tool, of scraping finish off his Loar because "I own it and it's MINE," there are stories of him caressing the mandolin and basking in a certain tone in a certain key.

I know, I know, I'm stirring the pot.

[David L]

The staggered 16ths is a great technique which adds a nice syncopation to the melody. But it has nothing to do with the perceived "sloppiness". I found it interesting in the video that when he played it slowly, each note was clear and audible. When he played it fast (too fast?), a lot of the notes were not clear, but were partially muted and dead. That is the "sloppiness" that people hear, not the order of the notes.

[Robert Smyth]

So is it basically accenting the upstroke? Not quite sure why the term "staggered" is used...

[Amanda Gregg]

I'll explain. This little trick is a remarkable innovation, and it's really simple.

When most of us repeat notes, we repeat them on the downbeat followed by the upbeat. You can tell it's a repeated notes. Try it.

When Monroe would repeat notes, he would repeat them on an upbeat followed by a downbeat. (See, for example, Paddy on the Turnpike or Dusty Miller). The sixteenth notes appear staggered when written on the page, since a different note starts the measure.

The effect is rhythmically nice but also produces an illusion of more notes than there actually are, since the upstroke and downstroke have different timbres, and your ear is more used to hearing down-up when notes are repeated.

[DataNick]

The staggered 16ths is a great technique which adds a nice syncopation to the melody. But it has nothing to do with the perceived "sloppiness". I found it interesting in the video that when he played it slowly, each note was clear and audible. When he played it fast (too fast?), a lot of the notes were not clear, but were partially muted and dead. That is the "sloppiness" that people hear, not the order of the notes.

OK,

David I went back and listened closely to the video especially the sections where Chris demonstrates slowly, then plays the same section in a "real" or accelerated time/fashion. Personally I wouldn't use the descriptions "partially muted and dead", though anyone can choose to do so, and I'm not disputing your right to use those descriptions. Again what we all hear is highly subjective, but I would use the descriptive phrase of a "dirtier" timbre versus a crystal clear one, and I would compare it to a "blues" timbre that players like Andra Faye and Rich DelGrosso achieve with their playing. Now a person may have a preference for a more "classically" refined type of timbre versus a "dirty" blues-type timbre, but that's what I hear. Whether or not a person chooses to associate the moniker "sloppy" with that is their own choice. However that is how I would describe what's going on there, and a lot of us have a preference, depending on the context, for that "dirty" bluesy style; just a matter of personal taste, nothing more nothing less.

[mandopops]

I'm not a Monroephile, but I think it sounds cool. I fooled with a bit, I will have too keep at it for while.
It reminded me of something I had worked on back in my Mr. Vicari lesson days. There was some lesson or etude or something about starting your Tremolo with an upstroke. You would hit the first note down then the second note upstroke starting to Tremolo. It is awkward at first, then you get the hang of it. I don't know how often I do it. It might just happen sometimes.
Was Monroe secretly Italian?
Joe B

[Robert Smyth]

Thanks to Nick for posting the video and thanks to Amanda for elucidating further. I just dug up the Roanoke tablature out of Peter's Masters of the Mandolin and I see exactly what you mean, Amanda. Also as in Dusty Miller and Paddy In The Turnpike. I've had trouble playing Dusty Miller up to speed because of this staggering, but now the beast has been named, I'll be going back to work on it some more!

[Ivan Kelsall]

From AlanN - ".....Daniel Aldridge, can do the down-stroke thing like nobody's business." That's the guy with wrists like steel hawsers,right Alan ?. I've tried that stuff a few times & nothing has ever seemed so deceptively simple to watch but so darned hard to accomplish. It's no surprise that Herschel Sizemore gave up on that style.
I agree with JeffD's take on what Bill Monroe did. I'm sure in my own mind,that Bill Monroe was 95% all about 'his music' & 5% about using the mandolin to play it & to help it evolve. I'm equally sure that as he himself said,that he was glad that the mandolin was the only family instrument left after his brother's had picked their chosen instruments. Possibly the mandolin wasn't used so much in the rural music of his area, & he saw himself as an ambassador for the instrument,& somebody who could bring it to prominence, & are we ever pleased that he did just that !. He undoubtedly came to love the mandolin with a passion,& for a boy,who when still quite young,had been terribly shy because of his eye problem,here was something that he could do to that overcame that problem in spades & helped him become the strong & focused person that he was for most of his life. Finding something that he could do well,something that others loved to hear & to have evolved his own musical genre,must have been an awesome thing for him. Truly a musical genius (IMHO),
Ivan

[Dick Hutchings]

Well that was just awesome. I thank you very much for posting that. Can't wait to fool around with it.

Chris Henry teaching/demonstrating a technical device that Bill Monroe often employed while playing mandolin breaks. This deliberate technique is what often is mistaken as the "sloppiness" heard in Monroe's playing.

Disclaimer: If you do not like Bill Monroe or Monroe Style Mandolin then you might want to consider avoiding this thread altogether. It's a free internet and you can do as you choose, but there's no need to subject yourself to subject matter that you find distasetful.

That being said, the posting of this thread is meant to engage worthwhile discussion of a little known device used by Bill Monroe, and to share the teaching tool used to communicate that device.

Keep pickin'

[Givson]

Here's something to ponder. Monroe's "sloppiness" may have been partly due to the "manly" (extremely high) action which his F5 had for many years. His very early work has always sounded cleaner to my ears, and I assume this material was recorded prior to his acquiring the Loar.

[sachmo63]

Very cool thread thanks for posting.

For those who are interested Chris also is a fantastic teacher who gives Skype lessons and will also do super accurate note for note video transcriptions of your favorite Monroe tune. I've taken his lessons and he offers some fantastic inside to this playing style.

No financial interest......

[DataNick]

Thread Bump:

The following video has been on my timeline since Oct 2014, and I finally took the time to figure out how to extract a Facebook video, so I thought I'd share this practical illustration of the thread topic...enjoy!