Which case should I take

[Ivan Kelsall]

Let's be realistic - in the real world,folk don't stand on their cases !.That argument is purely hype for the case companies. I really can't see a situation where a case would be subjected to say,my weight, 220 Lbs unless placed under a huge amount of other baggage in an aircraft baggage hold,& i wouldn't expect such a small case to be placed 'under' larger baggage items.
A banjo playing friend of mine,whom i haven't seen for many years,had a Calton banjo case for his pre-war Gibson banjo. At one point he dropped it whilst removing it from the boot ('trunk' to you folks !) of his car. It only dropped about 2 foot to the ground, but the impact was sufficiently hard for the resonator flange to chop through the resonator & splinter part of it off. I did the repair for him & at the same time re-furbished his banjo. The Calton case did absolutely nothing that any other case wouldn't have done & one of the latches was badly damaged. Indeed a softer,lighter case more well padded inside might have prevented the damage. It's the inside of the case that really matters & IMHO,it needs to be as shock absorbent as it can be.
From Almeria above - "Fiberglass has a lot going for it in terms of compression resistance and good impact resistance."
That depends on the orientation of the F/glass plies in the lay-up. Subject to too much pressure & they'll de-laminate. Also.F/glass itself is weak re.impact & you need to add Kevlar to make it impact resistant. I've done 100's of impact / peel strength / de-lam.tests on F/glass /CF ' CF/glass etc. & they all yeilded good results for 'some' circumstances but not all. The very finest F/glass cases were as i've mentioned several times on here,the old Mark Leaf cases made from what we termed 'chopped strand' F/glass,where the fibres intermixed with the resin matrix to form a case shell that had nothing in it to de-laminate
as the were no laminations to begin with. Despite their inherent strength,the ML cases were also very well padded inside,that was one reason that i decided to buy mine in Owensboro back in '92. Unfortunately the ''chopped strand'' look ain't too Glam looking,but it's the best outer case construction that you could ever have (IMHO),
Ivan

[Ray(T)]

Let's be realistic - in the real world,folk don't stand on their cases !

Although I di know a of a chap who took his Martin D41 to a shop on Oxford Road (It's just down the road from Ivan) looking for a case. The salesman showed him one saying "This is such a good case you could stand on it" - and he did! the trouble is that you can never account for the actions of baggage handlers. I once saw one unloading the bicycles of a cycling club I was travelling with. There was a pile of ten or so on a baggage cart and he was unloading them from the bottom.

[MikeEdgerton]

Ivan, it's not hype. I actually did it and I've stood on it more times than I wanted to accidentally. I'm willing to do it for anyone that keeps spouting this silly notion that a travelight is of the same caliber as a good flight case. It just isn't and wishing will not make it so. They have their place and that needs to be realized.

It looks like the airlines are very gentle with luggage though....

[Ivan Kelsall]

Hi Mike - I did the same thing with my Hiscox acoustic guitar case & yes,it was strong enough,but,i strongly suspect that if i was invited to your home & suddenly got up & stood on your mandolin case,my life expectancy would be rather 'curtailed' should we say. As i mentioned in a previous post,we are the most dangerous element in keeping our mandolins safe. A Travelite case is strong enough for almost any situation unless one gets stupid with it. There are things we simply don't do with any make of case. My Mark Leaf banjo case could have doubled as a nuclear fallout shelter,but i never ever thought of standing on it,it's not something i'm really into. I did do it one time with my Hiscox guitar case after seeing the Hiscox case pic.showing several Hiscox employees standing on one - that was enough. I still maintain that in 'normal use',a Travelite case is as good as any, & in certain respects,better than some,
Ivan

[MikeEdgerton]

I wouldn't disagree that the Travelight is good for a normal situation but as checked baggage it would probably be a disaster.

[Ryk Loske]

The question isn't what WE would do to our mandolin ... or any instrument ... in its case. The question/predicament ... is what happens when our treasured instrument and its case disappears into the bowels of an airport or anywhere where we no longer have it under our control or even in our sight. I want my instruments in something other than a case designed to be weight friendly.

Ryk

[Ivan Kelsall]

From Mike E - "I wouldn't disagree that the Travelight is good for a normal situation but as checked baggage it would probably be a disaster.". I agree 100% - but i wouldn't check a mandolin in any case for it to be carried in the hold. Imagine a nice new CF Hoffee or a FG Calton etc. case being placed in the hold up against all sorts of metal 'nasties' that could gouge scratches into it their surfaces. The external surface is resin = pretty brittle for most part, & easily damaged. A good case cover would be ok to help keep them free from damage,but i doubt very much if a case cover would have helped our Cafe colleague's Hiscox case not having it's corner smashed off,unless it was well padded of course.
As an aside to this thread,we come back to the oft discussed topic of what we're allowed to take on board an aircraft in the way of hand luggage. I sincerely hope that for our US cousins,the fairly recent rulings now allow for musical instruments of a certain size to be taken on board. Here in the UK & Europe, it's far less than clear re.what we can/can't take on board. For me 'on board' = good / 'in the hold' = disaster. My 'Mark Leaf' case shown above, came back to the UK with me via.US Airways stowed in the overhead locker - no problem for that airline,even back in 1992,
Ivan

[MikeEdgerton]

Again, if you can just miss a flight and have the option and the means to just not get on if they tell you they have to check that instrument then fine. Most people don't have that option so they need to at least anticipate what could happen and that is all this has been about. The best answer obviously would be to stay home and not travel. Barring that if that instrument has any chance of being checked get a decent case that could stand up to some pressure. Yes, there have been rulings but again it comes back to plan for the worst and hope for the best. Youtube is full of disaster stories that have taken place recently. If your mandolin is your only carry on then I'm pretty sure they'll let you put it under your seat in every row with the possible exception of a wing exit row. Even under the seat in front of me with my feet on it I'd rather have a less bulky harder case but that's just me. In 1992 planes weren't as full as they are now. IN 1992 I regualry flew on half filled planes. I haven't been on a half filled plane in years.

[sblock]

From Mike E - "I wouldn't disagree that the Travelight is good for a normal situation but as checked baggage it would probably be a disaster.". I agree 100% - but i wouldn't check a mandolin in any case for it to be carried in the hold.
...

Here in the UK & Europe, it's far less than clear re.what we can/can't take on board. For me 'on board' = good / 'in the hold' = disaster. My 'Mark Leaf' case shown above, came back to the UK with me via.US Airways stowed in the overhead locker - no problem for that airline,even back in 1992 Ivan

Sorry, Ivan, but your response is completely unrealistic. Those of us who travel a lot on airlines these days, and bring along our mandolins (and I'm assuming from your responses that you don't have a lot of recent air travel experience) know full well that we don't always get a choice about whether the mandolin goes in with the checked bags or not. I don't know any mandolinist who routinely checks his or her instrument as baggage to go onto the hold, in fact. This is not about checked luggage! Almost INVARIABLY, we attempt to board the plane with the our mandolin in our close keeping, as a piece of hand luggage. But whenever the overhead binds are (1) too small (happens of some aircraft) or (2) mostly full (this happens a whole lot these days!) or (3) the regulations don't allow two pieces of hand luggage (this applies to most European travel in economy class; but thankfully not in US -- for now) or (4) an air attendant is in a mood to enforce rules (or misunderstands the existing rules -- and believe me, this happens!), then the mandolin may be taken away from you as you board, or soon thereafter, and placed into the luggage hold. At that point, you pretty much have to accept it. It's that, or tear up your ticket, wreck your own travel plans, and get off the aircraft. Then try to get your money back (doubtful) and make some other travel plans. Almost no one does that.

The smart play here is to take a travel case that normally goes into the overhead (as we all would like), but can, when absolutely necessary and your back is to the wall (!), get checked into the luggage hold and still offer excellent protection. And that's not a Travelite. In that case, you want something that can withstand high pressure from the sheer weight of all the other bags that WILL get piled above it. Say, something with a shell made of fiberglass or carbon fiber. And your objections to the clear outer coatings on carbon fiber cases are largely irrelevant. Yes, those outer coats can get chipped and dinged, but this is cosmetic and NOT structural. You should look carefully at the torture tests for the Hoffee cases that I posted the link to, above. Sure, the case doesn't look as pretty at the end, but the structure of the case -- and the instrument it holds! -- remains fully intact. Writing for myself, I don't care if the case looks terrible, so long as it stays strong and solid. Which it does. And, as you pointed out yourself, those who care about cosmetic things can just buy a canvas case cover. These things are just as abrasion-resistant, or more so, then any Travelite case.

By the way, your Mark Leaf case is simply huge, and it is far less likely to be allowed in the overhead these days. This is not 1992. This is 2015. Today, you need something lighter and stronger and SMALLER if you are to have a good chance of stowing it inside an overhead bin without incurring the wrath of the air attendant -- or your fellow passengers! Some good choices these days include the new Caltons, Hofees, and the Pegasus. (I have no financial interst in any of these.)

[Ivan Kelsall]

sblock - I have no 'un-realistic' expectations re.air travel,especially in the UK & Europe & unless you know where & when i travel,your remarks don't apply. Any of my 3 mandolins cost me far more than most holidays i'd wish to take & if i was refused permission to take it on board,i'd stay at home - literally !. Having decided that i'd like to visit a few friends over in Ireland,i contacted the 3 main airlines that fly to Dublin - none of them would allow my mandolin on board,so i stayed home.
As for your point about my Mark Leaf case - i was referring to what i was allowed to do back in 1992,nothing more. I no longer have that case & wouldn't take my banjo to the US these days anyway, when i have a much smaller & lighter instrument. On the flight out to the US,my banjo in it's original Stelling case was placed in one of the cabin lockers that were spaced along the aircraft interior. It could have been placed in a similar locker on the flight back,but the boarding steward pointed to the overhead locker,so.......! Neither were any of my fellow passengers annoyed. I believe that folk could have got annoyed back in '92 just as they can in 2015.
Regarding whether luggage is to be 'checked' or not - that's the decision of the boarding clerk. If he / she says that 'whatever' can't be taken on board,then you can stand & argue,put it in the hold or go home.
Quote - "And your objections to the clear outer coatings on carbon fiber cases are largely irrelevant ". You've obviously not worked in CF development for aircraft - nothing is irrelevant !. If one takes that attitude then,aircraft have a nasty habit of falling from the sky. Also,my point re. the outer resin case material was that it can be damaged - no more than that.
Re.the covering of the Travelite cases - From the SAGA site - "These are covered with padded 600-denier black ballistic nylon..." = hellishly tough stuff & much stronger than cotton canvas.
As for looking at any 'torture tests' - i've seen the ''4 man standing on a Hiscox case'' 'test' that Hiscox used in a promo. I also saw first hand the completely shattered,smashed off corner of a Hiscox case after it had been dropped from an aircraft hold - so much for standing on one. Maybe the owner should have told the baggage handlers that they could only stand on it,but not drop it,simply to conform to the 'hype' ?. Tests are fine for the 'item' under some circumstances,but in the real world,not all circumstance conform to the test proceedure.
My liking for the Travelite cases is based purely on having used one myself for 9 years to carry either of my 2 mandolins (now 3). They're light,strong enough for all but the most ridiculous situations in which we could place them. The outer covering is really tough, & the inside & outside padding combine to give good impact resistance in all normal circumstances. I must say that i haven't see any pics.of a mandolin that's been damaged whilst in a Travelite case,unlike the few i've seen that had been in the 'old style' Calton cases. In fact last year,there was one thread on here where a member's Travelite case had fallen from the back of a motor cycle whilst it was being ridden.The case & mandolin were completely ok except for a few scuff marks on the outer case.
In any event,we make our own choice regarding which cases we buy - as in all things,
Ivan

[sblock]

sblock - I have no 'un-realistic' expectations re. air travel,especially in the UK & Europe & unless you know where & when i travel,your remarks don't apply. Any of my 3 mandolins cost me far more than most holidays i'd wish to take & if i was refused permission to take it on board,i'd stay at home - literally !. Having decided that i'd like to visit a few friends over in Ireland,i contacted the 3 main airlines that fly to Dublin - none of them would allow my mandolin on board,so i stayed home. ...

Regarding whether luggage is to be 'checked' or not - that's the decision of the boarding clerk. If he / she says that 'whatever' can't be taken on board,then you can stand & argue,put it in the hold or go home. Ivan

You are, of course, free to cancel your own travel plans instead of flying whenever the airlines won't let you board with your mandolin. In fact, I pointed that out in my previous post, #33, and so did Mike Edgerton, in post #34! But I also pointed out that this was an unrealistic expectation for most of us who travel by air. It might be fine for you to cancel your trip to Ireland and stay home when three airlines all tell you that you cannot bring your Travelite case with mandolin aboard. And you have every right to make that decision. But I hope you can recognize that this is not the decision that most of us would choose to make! When I travel to Ireland, it's generally by air, and I put my mandolin in a carbon fiber or fiberglass flight case that can get checked, if it becomes necessary. As I pointed out earlier, I manage to get it placed onboard with me most of the time. I am cheerful and polite to the flight attendants and try to I keep a very low profile while boarding! And YES, it's often down to the (sometimes capricious) decision of the boarding clerk. I also pointed that out myself, and so did you!

My strategy works nearly 90% of the time, in my experience. And it works 100% of the time if I fly Business or First Class, because in Europe (unlike here in the U.S.), these premium travelers are allowed to take more things onboard, at least on the on non-budget airlines, and no one confronts them (ah, airline hypocrisy). But for that 10% of the time when it doesn't work, I stand prepared with a top-line case. The bottom line, here, is that I take a hardshell flight case (a Hoffee or Calton), and I manage to travel regularly with my so-far undamaged mandolin (knock on wood). And if the outer resin on the case gets chipped, which it can, it doesn't bother me a bit. You, on the other hand, prefer your Travelite case, but then you point out that you cancel your travel plans and stay home when things don't run your way! I'd argue that my solution is the more practical one for most Mandolin Cafe members who travel frequently.

[Ray(T)]

One of Ivan's options for flying to Dublin would have been with the infamous Irish airline Ryanair. I don't know how well known the airline is in the US but for, the information of our US friends, this video has become something of a legend in the UK -

[sblock]

Hilarious!!!

[sgarrity]

99.9% of the time in the US a Travelite case will work just fine. I've yet to be made to gate check a mandolin case and every flight I'm on there are guitar players carrying on as well. BUT, I'd check the size of the plane you on into Asheville. There's not much room on those little regional jets. The few times I've been on those with instruments the flight attendants were very accommodating and either found room in the overhead or put it in the closet. Obviously, that might not happen every time.

[sblock]

99.9% of the time in the US a Travelite case will work just fine. I've yet to be made to gate check a mandolin case and every flight I'm on there are guitar players carrying on as well.

Really, Shaun? "99.9% of the time?! (sic)" That's just once in 1,000 flights with a mandolin! I tend to doubt if you've taken that many flights in your lifetime with a mandolin. I suspect you're probably exaggerating here to make a point. You will be made to gate check your mandolin whenever the overhead space is too small (some commuter planes) or it's all taken up with other bags (this may depend on your boarding time and priority) and the closet is full or when some bureaucratic boarding clerk has nothing better to do than hassle a musician. I think we all know this happens a lot more than once in 1,000 flights these days!!

[sgarrity]

Did you read the entire post? I'm guessing no.

[Austin Bob]

99.9% of the time in the US a Travelite case will work just fine. I've yet to be made to gate check a mandolin case and every flight I'm on there are guitar players carrying on as well. BUT, I'd check the size of the plane you on into Asheville. There's not much room on those little regional jets. The few times I've been on those with instruments the flight attendants were very accommodating and either found room in the overhead or put it in the closet. Obviously, that might not happen every time.

I too stated 99.9% of the time a Travelite would be fine. I pulled the numbers out of thin air, having no actual statistical data to rely on, I suspect you probably did as well. Still, I imagine the numbers are not too far from the truth.

But hmm, let's do a bit of math. There are 40,000 registered users on this board. If each flew with their mandolin with a Travelite case 3 times a year, that would equate to 120,000 trips. If the case failed .1% of the time, that would equal to 120 busted mandolins.

If we figure a $600 price increase from a Travelite to a Calton, and multiply that by those same 40,000 users, that comes out to a whooping $24,000,000 more in the cost of the case if every user upgraded from a Travelite to a Calton.

If the members of the cafe decided to pool our money, (buy a Travelite instead of a Calton and put the $600 savings into a self-insurance fund) the same $24M would be enough to compensate each of the 120 players that had a busted mandolin with $200,000 per person to go buy a new mandolin. Hmm, sounds like the making of a Ponzi scheme to me.

This of course assumes the Calton/Hoffee cases would protect the instrument 100% of the time, which we all know from anecdotal evidence not to be true.


Actually, the math simply suggests that from a collective standpoint, it doesn't make sense to buy the expensive case. The same is true for buying fire insurance on your house. But we still buy it because it minimizes the risk for a such a large investment.

[sblock]

Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. "99.9%" is not a realistic estimate for the success rate, by any means. This has little to do with whether you check for a small commuter plane in advance or manage to find an accommodating flight attendant. You still won't be able to bring your mandolin aboard with you 999 times out of 1,000. Unless you're a premier flyer traveling on an airlines that allows priority boarding, the overhead space and closet may well be filled by the time you get onboard. This will happen a LOT more than once on 1,000 flights if you travel a lot, particularly on crowded routes. I have seen it happen. I have experienced it. And you cannot count on finding an accommodating flight attendant 999 times out of 1,000, either. We all know the incidence of bureaucratic nincompoopery (is that a word? ) is much higher than 1 in 1,000 among airline employees. Or any other group of employees.

Reality check. The success rate is not anywhere close to 99.9%.

[sgarrity]

Do you take everything this literally? What are you, a statistics professor? The fact is that traveling with a mandolin is pretty darn easy yet there are members of this board that like to make everything scary and difficult.

[sblock]

Shaun,
Actually you're pretty close!

Austin Bob,

Yes, your insurance analogy is spot on! We are, in essence, self-insuring whenever we buy an instrument case for flying. We're implicitly weighing the perceived risk for additional damage inside a less expensive case (say, a Travelite) against the perceived risk of damage inside a more expensive case (say, a Calton or Hoffee). The correct computation is not the one that you carried out, however. The proper question to ask is whether individuals would be willing to invest in a case that costs ~$600 more against the added protection it affords under certain extreme circumstances for a mandolin worth, say, $5,000-$20,000 or even more. An exact computation of the true risk (i.e., the probability of a loss event multiplied by the lost valuation of the instrument, expressed in dollars) is extremely difficult, in practice. It depends upon the frequency of travel, the types of routes, the types of potential damage, the vagaries of weather, luggage mishandling, and much more. It also depends upon how much better you think a proper flight case might protect against certain types of assault (say, direct crushing loads) than a Travelite case when, as, and if these things are actually experienced. That's hard to estimate. Some folks here seem to be of the opinion that there is no real difference between the level of protection afforded by a Travelite and Calton case when traveling. Well, I beg to differ. But if you actually believe these are perfectly equivalent, then there's no reason at all to spend a penny more on a high-end case! But if you think your flight case will protect better under some circumstances, and you think you might be exposed to the risk of damage more than a few times during your travels, then you seriously ought to re-evaluate.

Professional musicians (and many amateurs) are used to paying anywhere from 1% to 10% of the value of their instrument per year for insurance against theft and loss, especially while traveling. That can easily amount to $100-$400 per year, which is more than a Travelite case. And, amortized over a ten or twenty-year period, it's a lot more than a flight case, too! So investment in a really good flight case seems like a fairly small price to pay compared to the insurance. And I think most of us would all rather save our mandolins from loss and damage than have to make insurance claims against these. I know I would. Get insurance AND a good case, I'd say.

This discussion reminds me a bit about the folks who write in to complain that a Blue Chip pick costs $35, when they can get a cheaper plastic pick for around a dollar or less. They claim that the cheaper pick sounds nearly as good, and question why anyone would ever agree to shell out $35 for a pick, especially when it might only sound a little bit better. I think these people have lost perspective, but that's just me.

A good mandolin is a serious investment, usually costing many thousands of dollars. The ancillary costs for the case, for the pick, for the strings, and so on, tend be only tiny fractions of that cost. We should not lose perspective.

I certainly didn't mean for this to be "scary and difficult", as Shaun said. In fact, travel is less scary and less difficult when you feel less at risk. If using a Travelite case and taking your chances for finding onboard space every time give you peace of mind, then go for it, I say. But if you happen to be more risk averse, or if you travel a whole bunch, you might be find greater peace of mind with a proper flight case. Yup, it will cost you more. And that's money well spent, I'd say. But that's my risk calculation. Your mileage may vary.

[Austin Bob]

Sblock, I agree with what you said, as well as the logic you used. It makes sense to me, but I'm a numbers kind of guy and run these types of exercises in my head all the time.

Another factor to consider is how hard would it be to find a suitable replacement if your mandolin were damaged beyond repair? I have a Taylor 710ce guitar that I could easily get an almost exact replacement within a few days if needed. My Gibson F5, on the other hand, is sold only through the Mandolin Store, and it is often not in stock. I also think it is one of the better examples of newer Gibson's I've heard, but of course I am biased. If I needed to replace it, I would likely spend a LOT of time and effort trying to make sure I got a replacement of equal quality and tone.

[acousticphd]

Hey cafe. I'm going to the Swannanoa Gathering in August. I'll be flying into Asheville with my Northfield, the usual mando accessories, some clothes, my backpack, and a few electronic goodies (phone, laptop, etc..) I have the TKL prestige hardshell case that came with the Northfield, but I also have a Travelite F-style case. Which case would you bring and why?

A reminder that there WAS an original question, which was pretty simple: What case to take to Swannanoa, and why?

I have been to Swannanoa, and took ~3 mandolins. There is a lot of walking, to and from the dorms, to and from meals, to and from class, to and from and looking for jams all evening. If you do anything like I did, you will carry, set down against walls, lay in cubbies, stash, stack, and pack/unpack your instrument case(s) a dozen times every day. This is my opinion, I know, but after a day or so I you may well agree: Keeping your instrument with you, or even in your sight at all times, is not practical and not necessary. I would take my TKL-style case, but regardless, I would definitely also take a gig-bag in my luggage, and swap into it for daily use.

I would also take 3-4 more T-shirts than you are inclined to think you'll need (or buy some there). It will be very warm, you will be outside much of your free time & up very late, beer gets spilled, and there is no A/C in the dorms.

[Jeff Mando]

Years ago, I did a 9 week tour of Europe and took a flight case. By the second day I was cussing the flight case. By the second week I was ready to throw it in the garbage.....way too heavy and total overkill....unless you have roadies, which I did not.

I like the idea of shipping it in a flight case, store the flight case, then pulling out a gig bag and carrying that over your shoulder and just being aware of it, when you place it somewhere. And when you head back, ship it home in the flight case.

Like many of us, I am guilty of overstating my standing in the world of music. Love to perform, but without a roadie, soundman, driver, lighting engineer, etc., most of what I do is overkill--heck, even owning a flight case is overkill. It really wasn't worth the extra space it took up in the van. let alone the weight of having to carry it.

[Austin Bob]

A reminder that there WAS an original question, which was pretty simple: What case to take to Swannanoa, and why?

True, but he also said he was flying there, which is why the thread went in the direction it did. I do like your suggestion about a gig bag, it seems like a good idea for a venue like that.

[Jeff Mando]

It will be very warm, you will be outside much of your free time & up very late, beer gets spilled, and there is no A/C in the dorms.

Whoa, there! North Carolina in August and no air conditioning????? And attendance is voluntary, not court-ordered, correct?