Truss Rod Wrench Won't Fit Hole

[Folkmusician.com]

Are you talking about the voices in my head?

Mine are in mutual agreement the vast majority of time. It is only a problem when they can not come to terms....

"I want a Porsche", "I need a Porsche", "we can't afford a Porsche", "who asked, you?" "ok, how about a new power tool?" "I think we can all agree on that".

[Michael Lewis]

Robert, maybe you should have a radio playing when you are alone. I find it quiets the voices by distracting my attention.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Bryce, that's the 2nd time you've thrown a wrench into the works. Please, keep up the good work. My voices are all cheering for you. It would seem you have been elevated to hero status. They all say "Thank YOU, Bryce". It's really quite entertaining.

[Emmett Marshall]

The voices in my head are saying, "Can't wait for that wrench to get here! I wanna play my Kentucky! I love my Kentucky. How come I've had it for 2 months and only got to play it for an hour or two. Can't wait for that wrench to get here."

[Bernie Daniel]

From Robert Fear - "The nuts are very soft. This allows the nut to be sacrificial and "hopefully" save the truss rod if it is overtightened.". Whilst understanding the reasoning behind the concept of being 'sacrificial' to prevent damage,if the nut is too soft or the 'facets' on the nut aren't really well defined (bad hex.head milling),then the wrench could round the corners off very easily, leaving a nut that can't be turned one way or the other. Personally,i'm thinking of my Weber "Fern" bridge which can be adjusted up / down whilst under full string pressure.(pic.below) The screw threads on the bridge have integral,small brass hexagonal nuts at the base,which, using a Weber supplied wrench can be turned.However,the nuts are brass & the wrench is steel,one slip (i made several, as these are only about 1/16" thick) & the hexagonal nuts are missing a few corners. Why the heck weren't the threads + nuts made from steel as well ?. To me it makes as much sense as a chocolate teapot. In the case of a 'soft' truss rod nut,if it was to be overtightened & the hexagon corners were stripped off by the wrench - how do you loosen it,especially when typically there's usuall very little room around it to begin with ?. Far better IMHO,to have a strong hexagonal nut = steel,& to give an opportunity to reverse such a situation,or you could end up with a neck under full compression & no way to relieve it,
Ivan

"Makes as much sense as a chocolate teapot"! I agree I'd prefer a decent steel nut as well.

[sunburst]

When you can get a well-fitting nut driver fully on the nut, you can apply enough torque to compress the wood under the washer, over-torque the rod, or otherwise cause harm with no damage to the brass nut. Considering that, as long as the rod functions properly and adjustments are done correctly there is no danger to the nut. Another reason to have enough clearance around the nut for the proper tool to fit correctly.

[Jeff Mando]

Still kinda nervous, when a repairman talks about removing wood VS modifying a tool to accomplish the same job. I say this based on 30+ years of doing repair and tinkering with truss rods. EVEN IF we are talking about removing a small amount of wood--IT IS STILL WOOD--I think at the very least a courtesy call to the owner would be in order. Of course, his reply should be, "Why don't you just grind a $2.00 wrench instead of chipping away at my Loar........?" Kinda like your lawyer saying, "We're going for the death penalty, you're cool with that, right?"

I've seen every variation of truss rod nut ailment, including some that are actually angling down toward the peghead, making it impossible to even begin to get a wrench in there. Fender Jazz basses come to mind--the proper prodcedure is placing the neck face down (with padding) between two kitchen chairs, while an assistant "leans" into the center of the neck (again, oh so carefully) to allow just enough flex in the truss rod to get a wrench on the nut and hopefully turn it. (without breaking it in two) Obviously, this technique wouldn't work on a mandolin because there isn't enough length to the neck. (vs a bass) Sometimes the repairman is being asked to compensate & correct for years of bending from bass strings or sometimes a truss rod that was never tightened at the factory. To name just a few repair ills. Some just have too much finish globbed in there, and yes, can be easily removed with small tools and scraping. I guess price would play a role, also. If you can get a $100 mandolin playable by removing a small amount of wood, then you've saved an instrument. But only, after trying everything else, IMHO. On a vintage Gibson or a modern boutique mandolin--no way!

And keep in mind, grinding or shortening a tool doesn't ruin it--you can use it on the next repair that calls for it. Like I say, I've got at least 50 by now and there's usually one in there that will solve the problem.

[sunburst]

...And keep in mind, grinding or shortening a tool doesn't ruin it--you can use it on the next repair that calls for it. Like I say, I've got at least 50 by now and there's usually one in there that will solve the problem...

Here are some tools from the back of a drawer of set-up tools. Two cut-off Allen wrenches, and two bent box end wrenches, one with a welded-on handle. (Fortunately, I took a basic welding course many years ago. I didn't realized welding was a required skill for adjusting truss rods at the time, but it ended up coming in handy.) The two wrenches involved traveling to the store and spending money to buy the wrench, firing up the torch to heat and bend the handle, and in the one case taking time (and expense) to make the handle and weld it onto the wrench.
Each of these has been used once. How much should I charge for adjusting those truss rods? Wouldn't it be easier for guitar makers to design so that the truss rod adjustment can be easily reached and adjusted with a standard tool? CF Martin and others do...


I'm not talking about removing wood like cutting holes in things, only removing wood that shouldn't be there in the first place. Someone mentioned a truss rod nut too close to the bottom of the pocket so that a wrench would not go on the nut (I've seen that many times). In that case, I have three choices: 1. remove some wood 2. risk damage using a poor tool that doesn't fit well 3. leave the rod un-adjusted. I'll go with either 1 or 2.
Usually it's just the peghead overlay sticking up in the way, and removing some of it does no harm to the instrument. There is a cover for the truss rod pocket, and that is what it is for; to cover the pocket because it is not an attractive design feature. Why not make the un-attractive hole it the peghead useful rather than frustrating? It's covered up anyway.
If it's a situation where it takes two people, one pushing down on the neck and one trying to fit a special tool onto or into a nut, that one will just have to be left unadjusted or adjusted in someone else's shop. I'm not doing it.

BTW, if you ever have to adjust a truss rod in one of my mandolins, a 1/4" nut driver will fit right in the pocket and right on the nut with no problem whatsoever.

[sunburst]

...

[Emmett Marshall]

Robert's wrench arrived this weekend, but it's going to be a few days before I can work on the Kentucky. My work has me "out in the field" until Thursday. THANKS Robert!

[Emmett Marshall]

...

What John said.

[Emmett Marshall]

Jeff, I could have missed it somewhere, but did John say that he carves out customer's truss rod holes without informing them first?

I can honestly say that I wouldn't have a problem with him doing that on my Kentucky ($1500 mando), but I might have a problem with that if it was a high value collector's mandolin and not a work horse.

What about all the people who scoop out the Florida on, well, even an F5 Loar? If I wanted to record with it, I sure wouldn't want to worry about any pick-click right?

I look at it like this: I have to play my mandolin every chance I get. I want it to be the way that "I" want it to be. It has to suit me in every single way, or something suffers. I've got no problem with a professional cutting, chopping, bending, sanding, gluing, or whatever it takes to make me and my mandolin merge into one happy music machine. If I'm playing with the natives in the Amazon Basin and my neck needs adjusting, I might be really happy that John had the foresight to shave some wood out of the way of the truss rod nut before the natives shrink my head.

I agree with you that customers should be given an "opt-out" before any permanent changes are made. I just had such a moment when a finger rest needed to be glued at an attachment point on my instrument. That was appreciated.

I also think that an instrument that is going to be played a lot, maybe all around the world, should be easy for anyone with "know how" to make basic adjustments. John's modification makes that possible. Not everyone travels with a toolbox - although Robert's wrench is going to live a nice, cozy life in a Calton case.

What's with the "losing" customer's wrenches anyway? Is it just me, or does anyone else find it a little "peculiar" that we (Kentucky owners) are "supposed" to have such a wrench included with the purchase of a Kentucky mandolin? Then we learn that luthiers and retailers have a million of these Kentucky wrenches in their shops? Ummmm hmmm. I am here and now calling on ALL Kentucky owners everywhere to go and claim their wrench! Robert is forgiven because he has come clean and now walks through life with purity and impunity.

[sunburst]

...I might have a problem with that if it was a high value collector's mandolin and not a work horse.

Generally speaking, a high value collector's mandolin will have good truss rod access. The design of valuable instruments is generally well thought out and executed, or they wouldn't have become valuable (with occasional exceptions). Where we run into problems is with instruments from inexperienced builders who just "never thought about" the situation, and with moderately priced (to higher priced) manufactured instruments where the designers are perhaps half a planet away from the people who do the actual building. Once things are in production, redesign and perhaps retooling are required to make changes, even if the change makes it down the chain of command to the production facility. It can be easier to just let it be and settle for the need for a custom tool.

[Jeff Mando]

emmettw, I agree with 99.99 percent of John's postings and opinions. I have learned a lot from reading what he has to say. I have never played one of his mandolins, but I have viewed his website and I am very impressed with his work. I'm sure John would never damage an instrument or suggest a repair that would not be a safe solution to a problem. I'm sure he is a great communicator, as well. Everyone's opinion on this forum has merit and we can learn from sharing our various perspectives.

Part of any repair process, even a simple set-up, requires communication to make sure the goal is to make the customer happy. We all (as repairman) have various tricks of the trade. And sometimes we let our opinions show. Most of my work has been with vintage instruments, where frankly, originality is the number one goal, sometimes taking preference over functionality, or at least walking hand in hand with functionality. Your example of scooping the Florida on an F5 Loar would NEVER be attempted or even considered by a reputable repairman, IMHO. There is a famous story of Ricky Skaggs, when he started to receive mainstream country success, purchasing a prewar Herringbone D-28 from Gruhn's and then immediately having a modern pickup system installed with onboard preamp, as well as drilling volume and tone controls--I had friends who worked for Gruhn at the time, who overheard Gruhn say that he would never sell Skaggs another guitar. Same with Stephen Stills, who would throw his vintage Martin into the air on stage and catch it, as part of his stage act--one day he didn't catch it---similar reaction from Gruhn......I guess I'm trying to say we are caretakers of these instruments to some degree, especially vintage instruments. Different people draw the line at different points. I've heard bluegrass guys hate Jimi Hendrix because he set fire to his guitar. I've heard other people say if you buy it, you can do whatever you want with it--Pete Townshend made a statement something to that effect (at least at one point in his career).

Sometimes a repairman has to find a solution to solve a problem and sometimes the solution is not the most elegant one. Sometimes it shows, even when we use all of our tricks. Sometimes it doesn't show.

Finding a truss rod tool shouldn't be that big of a deal. But sometimes it is. I agree with John that manufacturers should have all this figured out. I don't know what to charge when I have to make a tool. I usually know that I am going to lose money, but I try to think of my "month" rather than a single repair job. I had to make a tool to fit a Baldwin Burns gearbox to adjust the neck on a Baldwin Double Six electric 12 string--I owned the guitar and was trying to sell it and eventually did sell it, so it was worth my effort to make a truss rod tool for it. I still have the tool and haven't used it since......

[sunburst]

I just noticed that in post #58 I said "1 or 2" when I meant to say "I'll go with either 1 or 3", not #2.
(It's too late to edit)

[Emmett Marshall]

Hi Jeff: Interesting stuff to see these various perspectives and consider them. One is an appreciation for the instruments themselves, and another is about just making music with the instrument. Some people will buy a pickup truck, keep it stock, waxed, serviced, etc. Others will want to put in a lift kit, change the wheels and tires, modify the engine, and just run the heck out of it. I think that both of these "stereotypes" would appreciate lots of things about the truck, but they just have a different purpose in mind. One might be concerned about resale value, and the other might be concerned about getting through the mud on the way to a fishing hole? One might have a great appreciation for the genius of the engineers and talent of the craftsmen, and another might just be thinking, "Wow, I can do something with this!" I see both sides and I think they both have merit.

I LOVE vintage instruments, but I'm not a collector or trader. For me, a mandolin is a means to an end - making music. I'm also the same guy that you don't want to let drive you home after a wine tasting. While others are sniffing aroma, I'm gulping and thinking to myself "Yep. Good stuff!" Just so ya'll know though, I'd let you modify the heck out of my Kentucky but not my Gibson because I'm a bit like Jeff also. Someday, I want my heirs to inherit an intact, original Gibson, but if they decided to scoop out the Florida, or elongate a truss rod hole, I wouldn't roll over in my grave either. If I had a boutique, custom, hand built mandolin costing 5 figures, I'd cry every time I put a ding or scratch on it, and it probably wouldn't get used as much either. I agree totally about what you said about communication, and I think that's where that "communication" you mentioned is so important - what does this instrument "mean" to the customer? Obviously, not every customer is going to have the same "take" on the instrument that the repairman has on it.

[Tom Haywood]

I used to have over 100 truss rod wrenches/drivers available at the music store. We confiscated most that came in with new instruments, because owners don't usually want to do the adjustment themselves. There aren't that many nut sizes, but I think every producer uses a rod, nut and pocket size that fits some tool they have. The trick is to have their tool. About 10 minutes of the job at the store was spent looking for something that fit, and I rarely had two wrenches the same size. The lack of standardization within a line of instruments is what got my attention. The mandolin referred to in post #13 was about #540 in their model production. I've never seen a rod extend a half inch past the nut, but apparently this fit their tool perfectly. A thin automotive socket worked perfectly for me after a lot of cussing about their design, and it actually made more sense with the soft brass nut. Robert's photo reminds me that removing wood to make room for the rod and nut reduces strength at a critical spot. I'm sure every designer is attempting to minimize that problem as they work with the angles involved.

[Emmett Marshall]

I used to have over 100 truss rod wrenches/drivers available at the music store. We confiscated most that came in with new instruments, because owners don't usually want to do the adjustment themselves.

I just want to say that I have the utmost respect for all of you guys who repair and build mandolins, BUT...

...whoever "confiscated" my truss rod wrench, or "forgot" to leave it in the instrument case, has shut me down from troubleshooting, and maybe even fixing my mandolin for 2 solid weeks. I live in a remote town. There are no luthiers around. I had to spend a fair bit of time hunting down the correct tool. In fact, I paid around 10 dollars for a wrench from Stewmac that won't fit. When nothing was coming together, I had to consider removing wood. I purchased some Dremel bits - another $20 (but nice to have anyway). I wound up posting my problem here, and Robert, John, Mystik and others took the time to advise me. Robert then sent me the correct wrench. All this BS and wasted time just because someone else wanted another wrench to add to their collection, or decided for me what I, as a customer need, or do not need? Why couldn't someone just say, "Hey Emmett, do you want this truss rod wrench that comes with your mandolin? The one you PAID for already, but didn't even know you had?"

It's just ethics and respect. Of course, if your auto mechanic stole some of your tools........you might not have any choice but to pay him for a visit the next time you need a tuneup right? Even worse if a car dealership decided to "confiscate" your jack and spare tire because most people don't want to change tires and would rather call "AAA." I just don't think it's "right" for sellers to keep these wrenches. If I had mine to begin with, I wouldn't be sitting here with a dead mandolin until, at least, Wednesday to figure out what to do next. The mando would either be fixed by now, or on it's way to a luthier to get fixed.

With all of this said, I do hope anybody selling production mandolins will re-consider the idea of "hanging onto" these wrenches for their customers.

[Michael Lewis]

Some folks are capable of properly adjusting truss rods and many are not. This is no personal reflection on you, just a perspective of the repair world. I have worked at music stores that usually kept the truss rod adjustment tools because they kept folks from messing with and possibly damaging their new instruments. For much this same reason some guitar makers place their truss rods in nearly inaccessible locations for which you need a special tool.

[Tom Haywood]

A regular situation in my experience is that someone attempts a repair or adjustment, makes the problem worse due to lack of experience, then brings it in for the repair without telling me that they attempted it first. Truss rods are a particular issue with this because the right tool and experience are absolutely necessary, and if somebody has a wrench and no experience, well... Some manufacturers, including Martin, do not send truss rod wrenches with their instruments for this very reason. The only hope I have dealing with a buggered up nut is to have the correct wrench on hand, and it gives the best chance that the final price will be reasonable. Stripped threads - forget about it. I always ask if someone wants to keep the wrench, but 9 out of 10 folks take the advice to bring it in for adjustment and let me risk doing the damage. Don't know where you bought the instrument, whether you bought it new, or whether the manufacturer ships a wrench with it, but I do see a lack of experience leading to an attempt at adjustment without having the correct tool on hand. I'm all for you learning how to do it, but my advice for your first time is to take it to an experienced repair person who doesn't mind showing you how.

[Jackgaryk]

em...sorry again for your "trials and tribulations" with your mandolin. it's got to be under warranty, how about sending it back? sorry if you already addressed this and I missed it. I have been following your threads on this one and the other mandolin you had to send back, you shouldn't have to put up with this. I know the Kentucky gets a lot of love around here, but duh. I thought by now you would have heard from the guys you bought it from and the guy you had to do the upgrades. good luck !

[Emmett Marshall]

Hi Jack, Thank you for the empathy. I've spoken to the dealer who sold me the mandolin, as well as a couple of luthiers. It's unanimous among them that I should attempt a gentle truss rod adjustment first. In the event that adjusting the rod doesn't do the trick, the next course of action is to ask Saga if they will repair it under warranty. Since I had the Florida scooped and a pick guard installed, they may, or may not, repair it under warranty. If they don't, there are a couple of luthiers who are willing to tackle the job, but just the round trip shipping will be about $100.

Yep. This whole KM1500 decision of mine has been one challenge after another. What makes it worse is that the darn thing sounds fantastic minus the buzzing strings. I don't give up easy, and I believe that just the right person/people will enter into the equation and make this baby sing like a bird.

[Jim Hilburn]

Since this is still going, I'll add pix of the one I'm doing now. I just try to use all the length the cover allows so any tool, either wrench or driver can get to the nut.

[Wes Brandt]

Since this is still going, I'll add pix of the one I'm doing now. I just try to use all the length the cover allows so any tool, either wrench or driver can get to the nut.

Jim,

Can I ask where you get those nuts? They appear to be 1/4 drive… are they 10-32 thread?

Thanks

[Jim Hilburn]

That's what Steve at Cumberland supplies. Not sure where he gets them.