Mandolin players who took up the fiddle - talk to me!

[MysTiK PiKn]

I dislike the division of classical vs folk - esp. where classical is viewed as superior. There are doubtless many ways to prove or disprove superiority; but the comments in this thread make is seem like no fun.

I have a violin; but it's back burner due to need for setup, repair, mods - which will require a roadtrip also.

I researched violin stuff in general, ended up in some UK sites - they recognize (at least 2) disciplines - classical and folk traditional - and they describe different setups for those 2 music types, which was also interesting. So you either play "fiddle", or you play "violin".

It was all very interesting; but esp. a Scottish fiddler Alasdair Fraser. This guy is really good, his playing is riddled with 'accidentals'.
Here's a general link, his website - he's active in a lot of circles. Often plays with a cellist. You can search more of him, YT, etc google.

http://www.alasdairfraser.com/

I also am rather disappointed that some posts here emphasize how virtually impossible it is to learn - seems rather grossly defeatist to me - like how does it help to indulge in that? I like the "catmandu" approach which is more like just do it - and being a brat generally, who loves to cheat whenever possible, I would just hakk my way through basic bowing, get over the squawk results, and learn how to string a few awful notes together. Who's telling you what to do? Beyond that I'd hang out w a local fiddlers group to get more strange ideas on how to cheat even better - and why not. But for me, I first need to learn how to tune it; but I could also just put some tension on a string and get a head start that way. I have never taken lessons on anything I play; but have been influenced by friends, acquaintances, and listening. Works for me. I would simply like to learn a song or two, or learn a few scales to play a solo with a small group - getting that far, the horizon is a lot closer. Works for me. I don't really care about your high standards of intense impossibility - omg - get over it. Read my signature. later.

[Tobin]

I also am rather disappointed that some posts here emphasize how virtually impossible it is to learn - seems rather grossly defeatist to me

Well, there's no doubt that playing a violin has a steep learning curve. It takes much more precision and refinement to sound pleasant than any plucked fretted instrument. But that's what makes the violin so unique and expressive.

I agree, though, that violin/fiddle players as a whole seem to be less encouraging than other types of players. I've been reading various fiddle boards, and I sense an attitude of restraint aimed toward new players, telling people that it will take them years before they're ready to play in front of others. I'm sure some of this comes from traditional violin methodology, where you're expected to play only scales or basic patterns for a long time. Or maybe it's aimed at people with no experience playing music at all.

At any rate, I had a nice first lesson with my fiddle instructor, and he basically told me that I'm off to a great start. He gave me some good direction on getting better tone and working on bowing, slurs, etc. I'm already making progress on it. The sense of encouragement I got from him was a huge help as well. I also played my fiddle at the jam, and did OK. Still pretty rough, of course, but I had no problem doing simple improvising and keeping up. The folks at the jam were very complimentary as well.

So damn the torpedoes, it's full steam ahead for me!

[Petrus]

Any advice on electric violins? I've had mixed luck with a couple of cheapos. I mean solid-body, not just sticking a pickup on a fiddle. They are more forgiving than acoustic fiddles and quiet for practice. I like the NS Design series (the low-end model is the only one I could afford.)

http://thinkns.com/instruments/wav_violin.php

[twilson]

Interesting thread. I have played mando for about 40 years and fiddle about 35. But the fiddle frustrated me. I took about 6 months worth of lessons with a classical instructor when I got my fiddle, trying avoid bad habits. I did play fiddle on stage some but never felt that comfortable. In frustration, I would put the fiddle down for a year at a time but always went back. I found when I layed off for a while things got better. Technique I was struggling with improved. I used to play in front of a mirror to see if my right arm looked like a fiddler's; it didn't. But I just never could get the sound out of it that I wanted. But I kept after it.

Then about four years ago things started falling in place. Not sure why, maybe just an accumulation of effort. Intonation sounded good, double stops sounded in tune, vibrato came around. And lo and behold, my right arm starting looking fluid like a fiddler's.

For the last two or three years, I have been attending two weekly jam sessions where I play fiddle almost exclusively and that has helped immeasurably. Learning fiddle tunes and breaks by rote is necessary but my playing started getting noticeably better when I was forced to wing it. Also, I bought a good fiddle about 6 months ago; that also made a big difference.

So don't give up, and see if you can find some generous souls that will let you play fiddle around them.

I'm having a blast playing fiddle.

Hope this helps.

tim

[catmandu2]

... the "catmandu" approach which is more like just do it -

Fwiw, a bit of clarification - my diatribe on this thread was inspired largely in countering the "ideological" bias extant throughout music. For the record (my 10-some years of posting on this and other music fora), I'm a big promoter of "classical" pedagogy (my personal experience) for ALL instruments to which the method is relevant - I learned from my experience that if one studies technical aspects assiduously there are dividends everywhere, and this has served me exceedingly well for all of my musical playing pursuits.

Just, generally - I feel the world is in need of less ideological zealousness and greater pragmatism. Just saying , I mean, I can't forget how we got to where we are ..

[LongBlackVeil]

Learning fiddle tunes and breaks by rote is necessary but my playing started getting noticeably better when I was forced to wing it.

I'm having a blast playing fiddle.

Hope this helps.

tim

I think this is what I need to do. Ever since I started I toted my mandolin and fiddle to jams and only fiddles the tunes I knew. The rest I reverted back to what's comfortable (the mandolin) I think I need to start leaving the mandolin at home everyonce in awhile

[MysTiK PiKn]

Fwiw, a bit of clarification - my diatribe on this thread was inspired largely in countering the "ideological" bias extant throughout music. For the record (my 10-some years of posting on this and other music fora), I'm a big promoter of "classical" pedagogy (my personal experience) for ALL instruments to which the method is relevant - I learned from my experience that if one studies technical aspects assiduously there are dividends everywhere, and this has served me exceedingly well for all of my musical playing pursuits.

Just, generally - I feel the world is in need of less ideological zealousness and greater pragmatism. Just saying , I mean, I can't forget how we got to where we are ..

Well we can only start where we are - take one step forward, and don't look back.

While learning guitar, I worked hard to learn all kinds of stuff. I also had several times where I didn't play at all for months - and like twilson said, things often got better - maybe because I forget everything, and it was all about brand new exciting discovery once again, just like everything was in the early days.

My switch to mandolin has the guitar just sitting doing nothing. I have bought mandolin books w all kinds of cd's and I barely opened one of them. I sit here now like I do often - with my mando round my neck, radio blasting this Folk Roots radio show, where they have lots of mandolin tunes - and I just play along, mostly trying to steal hot riffs - but also finding ways to get smooth tone out of the mandolin. I am discovering touch, and new chords I invent (chord book just sits also). And it's all just great music and fun; and I see some new results too. And yes, there's tons I WANT to learn on mando.

The fiddle I have was given to me. It belonged to a girlfriends mother. Nobody in the family wanted it - but I did - because 10 yrs ago I picked up someone else's fiddle and tensioned a couple of strings and made awful noise until I could put three notes together - and that's all it took for me to want to play fiddle.!!
It needs setup, and it's a nice flame maple circa 1928 with a family sentiment attached - so I need to care for it properly, and I know beans about how to do that. I found a guy 200 miles away, who plays ina chamber ensemble, does all repairs for a classical music store, and knows everything about everything. He helped me date this violin, and educated me about what's quality, the violin world, etc. So he gets the job of setup, clean up, and he's into bows also.

There's a fiddle group in town - like 100 of these guys all playing at once - you can hear it for miles. I think that's where I am going as a total newbie. Feed me. Thanks. And a whole new social scene.

But I'm in it for fun. And also I hear classical stuff that brings tears, from old tonewood being played - I can do that!!!!. And bluegrass stuff that gets me hopping, and that's mando related too = FIDDLE TUNES - yee haw.!!!! SOUNDS LIKE FUN to me.

And it's supposed to be fun. Right?

[JeffD]

I also am rather disappointed that some posts here emphasize how virtually impossible it is to learn - seems rather grossly defeatist to me - like how does it help to indulge in that?

I don't see that. Someone asks for us to share our experiences or whatever and folks out with it. In my case learning the fiddle was/is one of the hardest things I have ever attempted. For a million reasons, including age, experience with music, impatience, fatigue, whatever. Its not defeatist to say something is hard, when it is, objectively, hard.

I think that learning the fiddle has so many hurdles and speed bumps that discouraging posts on a website will have insignificant impact.

[Tobin]

Today I switched over to Dominant strings on my fiddle, treated the pegs with Hill's peg dope, and readjusted everything. Then played for 7 hours straight (along with my wife on mandolin). Lots of retuning in the process as the strings settle in. But it was a blast. This is the fun part, early in the learning process, where a whole day of playing yields noticeable progress, especially with bowing and intonation.

Pulled out some fiddle tunes that we play on mandolin, but they take on a whole new dimension on an actual fiddle. Roscoe, Booth Shot Lincoln, and other tunes like that just really come alive with double stops on a fiddle like they never did on mandolin.

Yeah, I'm hooked.

[MysTiK PiKn]

I don't see that. Someone asks for us to share our experiences or whatever and folks out with it. In my case learning the fiddle was/is one of the hardest things I have ever attempted. For a million reasons, including age, experience with music, impatience, fatigue, whatever. Its not defeatist to say something is hard, when it is, objectively, hard.

I think that learning the fiddle has so many hurdles and speed bumps that discouraging posts on a website will have insignificant impact.

Yes. That is exactly my point. I'm more interested in learning than indulging in useless negativity. There's nothing wrong with people sharing their experiences. However I don't desire discouragement; I'd rather move on to the good part. Thanks for sharing.

People can and do share negative experiences; especially if they need to. Often it depends also on what one identifies with. Identification with the dark side is not usually a bright journey. But if it must needs be; no problem. After a little feedback, if needed, everyone can move on. Kinda like - it's ok to feel the way you feel; especially if that's what you are feeling. sometimes people imagine they are feeling something - that called imagination, a division of thinking. It happens to everyone; but the indulgence in it prolongs it. If that's known, it still might be difficult. But it becomes a decision after a point.

For example, I am having more fun now that I was before. I think others too.

Beyond all this, I'm already way beyond age 4, and 44, so that's not going to happen either. But I will give it a try, and I will have my little success. which will be fun.

[MysTiK PiKn]

Today I switched over to Dominant strings on my fiddle, treated the pegs with Hill's peg dope, and readjusted everything. Then played for 7 hours straight (along with my wife on mandolin). Lots of retuning in the process as the strings settle in. But it was a blast. This is the fun part, early in the learning process, where a whole day of playing yields noticeable progress, especially with bowing and intonation.

Pulled out some fiddle tunes that we play on mandolin, but they take on a whole new dimension on an actual fiddle. Roscoe, Booth Shot Lincoln, and other tunes like that just really come alive with double stops on a fiddle like they never did on mandolin.

Yeah, I'm hooked.

Yes, you seem to be well on your way. Long sessions are really good for boosting progress, cementing lessons learned; it's a great experience. When I have had that prolonged experience, it tends to bring a whole new view of things.

I have heard that violin strings are quite expensive and can range in price anywhere near 50 to 150, which was quite a surprise. Is that true? Is Dominant a brand, or a type of string?

Also, I can see where playing mando songs on violin, with max 2 strings at a time, would be quite different - and pretty racy too, like almost hurried - I guess that's about more practice. There's just no way around that. But I never thought I would want to play a violin; but then I got into music and one thing led to more. Then I heard violin played well, and just the sound of the instrument. wow. That's all I want is just to play a few notes with power and feeling; it's kinda like the idea of "my bucket list" cos it's pretty important that I do that. another thing I want is a cello, which I consider to be the ultimate instrument. I saw a nice wrecky one a couple of years ago - and I've seen some expensive ones. Cellos are entirely in the range of human hearing. You really can't miss.

[Tobin]

I have heard that violin strings are quite expensive and can range in price anywhere near 50 to 150, which was quite a surprise. Is that true? Is Dominant a brand, or a type of string?

Dominants are a synthetic-core, aluminum-wound string made by Thomastik Infeld. They run about $64 per set with the wound E string like I got. About $60 with a plain E string.

Mine are starting to settle in now, and I'm liking the sound!

[Tx Fiddler]

I tried one set of Dominants
maybe 20 years ago. My memory of them is they took a LONG time to settle in and didnt last long enogh....at least for me.

[MysTiK PiKn]

The other thing, was the bow. The bow w my violin is wood, and it was left under tension for at least a couple of decades, I guess. The violin guy I talk to said to take the tension off it, so I did. It had quite a loop in it. I never noticed - it was stuck in the lid part of the old case. I should probably look at it again. I'm hoping it's useable. I don't want to spend 160+ on a bow, before I even get started. I dunno the prices - but he some at that price, and some higher - fancy toys, wow.

He also talked about different "hairs"? I guess that what they call it. And I guess different hairs have different textures, like coarseness, etc... and then (guessing) I was thinking that would affect volume, and likely sensitivity.???

And with that it's like wow, what am I getting into; it's totally different right there. Fascinating stuff. My violin guy seems very good, very knowledgeable about the tek stuff. He has some fancy bows for sale. I really can't say what those are, or what they are like - but they look pretty cool. He also has violins, cellos for sale. I've never met him; all the talk was emails - for a couple of weeks!!

It's good to talk about this because it's been back burner for so long; and this is getting me all worked up about violin again. It's a whole other world. Is there a violin cafe?

[Petrus]

This should set mando-fiddlers' hearts all a-flutter ... an eight-string altova skrypka (alto fiddle) from some eastern European country (I forget which.) Musical Instrument Museum.

[Tobin]

I tried one set of Dominants
maybe 20 years ago. My memory of them is they took a LONG time to settle in and didnt last long enogh....at least for me.

Yeah, I was warned ahead of time that Dominants would give me fits trying to keep them in tune at first. And the first day, they were pretty difficult. The second day was better. Hopefully they'll settle down this week. As for longevity, do you remember how long yours lasted? I'm used to changing mandolin strings every 3 weeks or so, but obviously I don't want to go through a $64 set of violin strings that quickly. I'm thinking that since they're synthetic core with aluminum winding, my sweaty fingers which normally rust steel strings shouldn't be as much of an issue on these. Plus, without the flattening of the strings on frets that I get with my mandolin, the violin strings should last longer. *fingers crossed*

The other thing, was the bow. The bow w my violin is wood, and it was left under tension for at least a couple of decades, I guess. The violin guy I talk to said to take the tension off it, so I did. It had quite a loop in it. I never noticed - it was stuck in the lid part of the old case. I should probably look at it again. I'm hoping it's useable. I don't want to spend 160+ on a bow, before I even get started. I dunno the prices - but he some at that price, and some higher - fancy toys, wow.

He also talked about different "hairs"? I guess that what they call it. And I guess different hairs have different textures, like coarseness, etc... and then (guessing) I was thinking that would affect volume, and likely sensitivity.???

Heh, bows are a whole 'nother thing! I have a new fiberglass bow that's lightweight, but it sounds very thin. I also bought one of those Jon Paul Fusion bows (carbon fiber core encased in wood), which sounded better to me at the store than the pure carbon fiber bows. It plays well, and it's the one I use most.

But the best sounding bow is the old wood bow that the seller included with my fiddle. The hair on it is pretty old and dirty looking (despite my cleaning efforts), and a few hairs have broken. It needs re-hairing, and the bow has a slight left curve in it. It's a very tired bow, but it sure has a nice sound. I'm afraid that re-hairing it will ruin the tone. But I guess I'll have to do it sooner or later.

This should set mando-fiddlers' hearts all a-flutter ... an eight-string altova skrypka (alto fiddle) from some eastern European country (I forget which.) Musical Instrument Museum.

Wow. I guess playing double-stops is pretty much out of the question on that thing, since you wouldn't be able to get a bow in-line with 4 strings at once. Or I guess you could maybe just play the two innermost strings between the two courses?

[JeffD]

Pulled out some fiddle tunes that we play on mandolin, but they take on a whole new dimension on an actual fiddle. Roscoe, Booth Shot Lincoln, and other tunes like that just really come alive with double stops on a fiddle like they never did on mandolin.

Great tunes for double stops.

There are things that only a fiddle can do, (and vv of course, things only a mandolin can do, but that's a different thread.)

A year or so ago a lot of the young fiddlers were really getting into playing percussive chops. Real rhythmic stuff. If used sparingly it can really sound cool.

[LongBlackVeil]

I have heard that violin strings are quite expensive and can range in price anywhere near 50 to 150, which was quite a surprise. Is that true? Is Dominant a brand, or a type of string?

This is why i stick to steel strings. I do like the sythetic strings sound, but its just not worth it to me. I use either prims or helicores. Im getting a new fiddle soon and those are the two strings im trying, whichever sounds best, ill stick with that. Helicores are kind of in between synthetic and steel strings really. They have a warmer tone than basically any steel string (other than larsen those are very pricey though), but theyre much more stable than synthetic strings. Thats another reason i use steel, if you play outside at all, youll be retuning synthetics alot.

I play guitar and mandolin, and i always like to try as many strings as i can. With fiddle though id have to go bankrupt to do that. Both the prim and the helicore are right around $30. i really hate to spend more than that

The helicore heavies are like the j74s of the bluegrass fiddle world.

As far as the bow goes, its simply very important that you get a good one. Its also more important that you try before you buy than just about any musical item i know of. Its basically an extension of your arm, it needs to feel as natural as a bow can feel. Im more understanding of the high cost of a good bow.

[MysTiK PiKn]

This is why i stick to steel strings. I do like the sythetic strings sound, but its just not worth it to me. I use either prims or helicores. Im getting a new fiddle soon and those are the two strings im trying, whichever sounds best, ill stick with that. Helicores are kind of in between synthetic and steel strings really. They have a warmer tone than basically any steel string (other than larsen those are very pricey though), but theyre much more stable than synthetic strings. Thats another reason i use steel, if you play outside at all, youll be retuning synthetics alot.

I play guitar and mandolin, and i always like to try as many strings as i can. With fiddle though id have to go bankrupt to do that. Both the prim and the helicore are right around $30. i really hate to spend more than that

The helicore heavies are like the j74s of the bluegrass fiddle world.

As far as the bow goes, its simply very important that you get a good one. Its also more important that you try before you buy than just about any musical item i know of. Its basically an extension of your arm, it needs to feel as natural as a bow can feel. Im more understanding of the high cost of a good bow.

hmmm.... Sounds like helicores might be a good starting point. The description is interesting - between steel and synthetic. I will likely start with whatever the violin guy recommends.

The bow I have, if it's still usable will need rehair. Interesting that Tobin likes his old bow - and it's kinda warped too.

The entire violin is just as is in the case, there's what looks like a new bridge, but never installed. It looks like a few people tried to get it working because there's some scratches around the bridge location. It's in old case, complete with some spare strings, rosin, bits of paper, all really really old, like 1930's to 1950's maybe as late as 60's. There's these invitations to someone's home for a recital. The original bill of sale to a friend. Then a note at the bottom where it was bought from the friend. All this old sentimental family stuff, it's pretty interesting. The whole deal is almost like finding a Loar in an attic or a closet. We dated it at roughly 1928 based on evidence such as searching the history of the company that imported it, warehoused it, sold it. One of the biggest stores in Toronto. They sold pianos also, lot of stuff. The R.S. Williams Company. Their history is on the net. They were major contributors to a museum. Company was owned by father, son, son, etc. like that. Fascinationg tour. I should see if I still have pix. It's all still uncleaned, dusty. no bridge, old strings flopping around. dusty old case, etc. I'll see if I have pix rather than type all this.

[MysTiK PiKn]

OK got 10 pix. I emailed a bunch of these to the violin guy so he could give me an idea of what it needed. Anyway, it's a fake Strad, label indicates Italian - lies from the violin world, it's like forgery in the art world. We chased history and figure it's actually French or German, with a "brand" which is the label, which says Italian, complete w Maker's name, and date 1910 - all of that talk is the "brand name". But i think it has nice flame maple, and a decent top, in reasonable condition, needs a little clean and fix, a few things for repairs. I left out the bill of sale, cos there's some private info there. It was sold by General Music Supplies, Toronto. GMS bought out R.S. Williams around 1960's. Williams Co. operated in TO for about 100 years. They imported these violins from "Europe", makers were likely various people in Germany or France.
Anyway here's some pix. Comments welcome.

[MysTiK PiKn]

4 more pix.




It's not the world's greatest violin. And 1928 is just common, and it's nothing compared to the real violins from 1600's like Stradivarius and Guarneri. (sp?) But I was thrilled when it was given to me. I want to get it fixed up and learn how to make a few sweet sounds, and who knows beyond that. Just learning stuff about the violin world is pretty amazing for me - and the guy who's going to fix it, has been at it quite a while, knows lots about it. I don't dare fix it myself; I know nothing.

[pheffernan]

The helicore heavies are like the j74s of the bluegrass fiddle world.

This analogy of the unfamiliar world of fiddles to the familiar one of mandolins was very helpful. Do you have any others? What's the fiddle equivalent of an old Gibson oval (i.e. a vintage piece made in such large numbers that they're still plentiful and within reach for an average person)? What's their Collings MT (i.e. a modern build with such precision and consistency that it would be safe buying from a distance)? How about their Blue Chip pick (i.e. a playing accessory that is held in high regard)? Finally, what is their version of the Mandolin Cafe (i.e. a forum that provides endless information and support in pursuing one's musical goals)?

[Tobin]

The entire violin is just as is in the case, there's what looks like a new bridge, but never installed. It looks like a few people tried to get it working because there's some scratches around the bridge location.

That looks like a neat old fiddle! Marks around the bridge area seem to be fairly common, as people moved their bridge around. Fiddle bridges will lean forward over time just like mandolin bridges, but if they are allowed to go too far, they can tend to fall over or snap in half (I had this happen to me on my first violin). This tends to leave a mark. My fiddle has lots of wear and tear in this area, as you can see below. Not sure what happened, but it's pretty beat up.



Anyway, I'm sure you know your violin needs a good inspection by a professional if it's been sitting for that long unplayed and unstrung. They'll need to check the sound post, probably dress the friction pegs, make sure the bridge fits the top, etc.

Yeah, German would be my first guess, possibly French. Those were the two countries making the majority of Strad copies. As I understand it, violins imported before 1890 were not required to have a country of origin marking. Between 1890 and 1920, it was required to state the country of origin. After 1920, they got more specific with the laws and required the "made in ____" verbiage, with the country name in English. So as a general rule (there are probably exceptions), if there's no country on the label, it could be pre-1890. If it just says "Deutschland" or "Italia", it could be 1890-1920. If it says "made in Germany", it's post-1920.

This analogy of the unfamiliar world of fiddles to the familiar one of mandolins was very helpful. Do you have any others? What's the fiddle equivalent of an old Gibson oval (i.e. a vintage piece made in such large numbers that they're still plentiful and within reach for an average person)?

I'm not sure there's a real equivalent. Violins are different beasts, and the market history has always been much different. But the old German and French trade violins were made by the millions in about the same era as the Gibson oval-hole days. They were probably not considered to be the same quality as Gibson mandolins, but they might be a close equivalent. These can run anywhere from $500 to $1500, depending on condition and quality.

[LongBlackVeil]

This analogy of the unfamiliar world of fiddles to the familiar one of mandolins was very helpful. Do you have any others? What's the fiddle equivalent of an old Gibson oval (i.e. a vintage piece made in such large numbers that they're still plentiful and within reach for an average person)? What's their Collings MT (i.e. a modern build with such precision and consistency that it would be safe buying from a distance)? How about their Blue Chip pick (i.e. a playing accessory that is held in high regard)? Finally, what is their version of the Mandolin Cafe (i.e. a forum that provides endless information and support in pursuing one's musical goals)?

Dont get too excited. Theres not really a whole lot of comparision in the violin world to any of the things you listed. Ivan gave about the best answer for the gibson comparison. Old german factory fiddles are like the workingmans instrument, very common for a fiddler to be playing one of these. The thing that makes it difficult is that you just simply cannot trust ANY label on an old violin.

Even when it comes to forums, sure there are some fiddle forums out there, but they are not nearly as active as this one. The online fiddle community is actually very small.

[Tx Fiddler]

It's a beautiful violin.

It appears the bridge is set too far forward and will need to be moved. Check the right F hole and you should hopefully see a vertical sound post wedged between the front and back of the instrument. Many times if the strings are not kept tight the post will fall and rattle around the inside of the violin. Resetting is a royal pain without the proper tool.

I wouldn't necessarily associate the quality of the instrument with the production date as you just never know. The fiddle I've been jobbing with for the last 15 years was found at a yard sale in a plastic bag in 5 pieces. I paid $5 for it and the paid a weekend luthier $60 to put it back together. I have no idea when it was made and don't particularly care as it has a beautiful acoustic tone.

I believe you mentioned a bow. Bows can be like fiddles themselves in that they're a bit of a crapshoot and believe it or not have quite an effect on the tone of the instrument. But I've found the fairly recently introduced carbon bows are a safe bet. The last one I bought was a little under $100 and is a fine bow that I use regularly.